Project Reality Forums

truth is never shot like that and really not sure how frequent that can happen. so if it is realistic I don't mind it is there. though I'm really very doubtful irl attack chopper pilots take that kind of blind shots

here is a question

would we rather people were using magic markers to give pin point accuracy to supporting fire?

or would we rather people used lazes, smoke, grid references, bearings and tracers to mark targets?

Still confused as to what this is?

Ohais wrote:Still confused as to what this is?

BVR (Beyond Visual Range) fire is when a Chopper or APC fires at a spotted target while being beyond the view distance of the map, and therefore out of sight of the enemy.

Example:

Its Muttrah and you're in the Cobra, your spotter has seen a squad of infantry on top of the mosque, but unfortunately there is AA covering your ingress/egress route. Therefore you tell your pilot to hover at 300-600 alt above the carrier, you tell your spotter to mark the mosque and you engage the marker with cannon fire while your spotter gives you fire adjustments. This means you can kill the infantry without being exposed to any risk whatsoever.

My problem with BVR fire in PR is that the AA is nerfed so much that the attacking helicopter is impossible to destroy.

I'll use the Apache and the SA7 as examples, since they're the best helo and worst AA. The Apache has the M230 Chain gun, its effective range is 1,500m with maximum range of 4,500m. And the SA7 has an effective range of 3700m and max of 4200m. So in reality, an Apache would be very vulnerable from SA7 fire if they came within their own effective range of 1500m.

In PR, the sa7 goes about 500m max. But the Apaches cannon on the other hand will fire clear across most maps. Basically we nerfed the hell out of the AA but left the helicopters weapons at full power.

AA and attack helos are nerfed.

Hunt3r wrote:AA and attack helos are nerfed.

Yes, helos are also nerfed. But specifically, the ranges of the cannons on the helicopters are not nerfed.

If the 30mm on the helo only fired 500m before it lost all power and hit the ground, people would be all up in arms about it. But, that's exactly what happens to an AA missile from the SA7.

The AA limitation are not as noticeable when it comes to the normal situations we face in PR. Because of the low draw distance, you're usually able to get within range of the helicopter. But, with tactics like BVR fire, the draw distance is not a factor for the helicopter, and the AA is useless.

In that regard, the helicopter is by no means nerfed like the AA is nerfed.

I'm not even saying the AA should get its full range, that would ruin gameplay for all the helicopters and the people wanting to do AA. I'm just saying that using BVR fire as a tactic in PR, is exploiting the system in order to gain an unfair advantage. It may be realistic, but so is the 3700m range of the SA7. Some realistic things can ruin a game.

badmojo420 wrote:Yes, helos are also nerfed. But specifically, the ranges of the cannons on the helicopters are not nerfed.

If the 30mm on the helo only fired 500m before it lost all power and hit the ground, people would be all up in arms about it. But, that's exactly what happens to an AA missile from the SA7.

The AA limitation are not as noticeable when it comes to the normal situations we face in PR. Because of the low draw distance, you're usually able to get within range of the helicopter. But, with tactics like BVR fire, the draw distance is not a factor for the helicopter, and the AA is useless.

In that regard, the helicopter is by no means nerfed like the AA is nerfed.

I'm not even saying the AA should get its full range, that would ruin gameplay for all the helicopters and the people wanting to do AA. I'm just saying that using BVR fire as a tactic in PR, is exploiting the system in order to gain an unfair advantage. It may be realistic, but so is the 3700m range of the SA7. Some realistic things can ruin a game.

Yeah but on the other hand, if R-DEV add the BVR Radar for AA as seen on Combined Arms, people will be uprising about the fact a tunguska/(whatever AAV equip with a radar antenna) can detect, lock and engage at 2000M without problems. But that said, they could add the longbow/(whatever aircraft equip with a radar ingame) radar ( also seen in C.A. ) that will allow combat helo/(jets) to detect, lock and engage vehicule at 2000M.

Actualy the debate can go realy far. IMHO i beleive that addin Radar to helo that got it on will add realism and push the tactic way foward, same as addin it to AAV. Also R-Dev should add realistic ballistic to the 25/30/35 mm rounds. There is no way that a round like that will fly straight at 1000m, there will be a drop, espescialy with HE-I(T) round.


So in the end you can debate about many many many many many many factors... So where will it end ? it will end where DevTeam will decide to end it. Pretty much it is in there hand not our. But i'm for the removal of 3d marker ingame, but for "fun factor" if you remove marker it will be a hell for management. and MGRS ingame is too much inaccurate for being used alone.

MGRS IRL : 19T CM 12345 67890
MGRS PR : A6-KP3

I think this is the equivalent of artillery but with smaller rounds and higher frequency. I think we should keep it, a kill isn't always produced from this method.

About the marker, when the chopper is over 900 ALT and the SL just marks the chopper just sprays and prays at the marker. This might be effective but I think it is an exploit because any AA from the ground can't lock on the heli.

Bamtoman wrote:About the marker, when the chopper is over 900 ALT and the SL just marks the chopper just sprays and prays at the marker. This might be effective but I think it is an exploit because any AA from the ground can't lock on the heli.

If you are "Realisticly looking" at the thing not its not an exploit, every modern combat helo have computerised firing system, wich mean that technicly, you can add MilGridRef to you're system as a "target point" wich mean that the computer will told you where you are compare to the target and if you're in range or not.

If its possible with the TACNAV of a LAV25 i'm more than conviced that it is possible with a AH64D/Z10/HAVOK/AH1Z

[R-CON]Rudd wrote: or would we rather people used lazes, smoke, grid references, bearings and tracers to mark targets?

The problems I have with this and atleast my computer settings are, Smoke doesn't render until i'm too close and it doesn't stick out as much as a lase or something, Bearings really don't work that great unless you are right beside someone, sure you get the genereal direction but nothing near accurate, Lazes and grid references are hard to find without that 3d marker. Lets say you are playing kashan and are near South outpost, there really aren't that many landmarks in that area so its hard to find what that grid is since everything looks the same, compare this to needing CAS in the d3 key 6 village or hotel on muttrah that everyone knows about and is an easy landmark.

Hotrod525 wrote:If you are "Realisticly looking" at the thing not its not an exploit, every modern combat helo have computerised firing system, wich mean that technicly, you can add MilGridRef to you're system as a "target point" wich mean that the computer will told you where you are compare to the target and if you're in range or not.

If its possible with the TACNAV of a LAV25 i'm more than conviced that it is possible with a AH64D/Z10/HAVOK/AH1Z

Yes in real life modern combat its not an exploit, but in PR the GAME there is no possible counter only the gunner/pilot is the counter. There is no way for those guys in the ground to avoid the rounds. The AA guns can't lock on to it, skilled players with HATs can't aim at the chopper because the chopper is just to high and can't be seen. Tanks and apc's are useless against the chopper
The pilot and the gunner has no fear of getting shot down.
And yes I am in the side on gameplay > sake for realism no matter what

At the same time, it is ridiculously simply to take out attack helicopters when they come close, and the reality is that they aren't the effective BVR.

Also, anything with wheels or tracks can move around, find them, and shoot them down.

It's fine.

Now that markers work so good on the maps I think 3d markers may be rid off in a new version.

badmojo420 wrote:My problem with BVR fire in PR is that the AA is nerfed so much that the attacking helicopter is impossible to destroy.

I'll use the Apache and the SA7 as examples, since they're the best helo and worst AA. The Apache has the M230 Chain gun, its effective range is 1,500m with maximum range of 4,500m. And the SA7 has an effective range of 3700m and max of 4200m. So in reality, an Apache would be very vulnerable from SA7 fire if they came within their own effective range of 1500m.

In PR, the sa7 goes about 500m max. But the Apaches cannon on the other hand will fire clear across most maps. Basically we nerfed the hell out of the AA but left the helicopters weapons at full power.

However the hellfire will reach out to 8000m, almost double the SA7, which in game it is 1200m more or less, one of the shortest limited missiles.

The ranges are all wrong proportionally.

Ranges don't matter when there is a view distance limitation.

I know this has focused on cannons but BVR is way more than just that.

TOW emplacements being used like tomahawk missiles to hit things out of view distance. The prior mentioned cannons from APCs and TANKS are annoying but the indirect missiles or direct cannon fire that cannot be countered are the real problem.

Jets dropping bombs on lazed targets or using hell fires with ground targeting from out of view I don't have a big problem with, because it is semi realistic if not completely realistic, as much as I have a problem with using the view distance to screw the other team in a way that cannot be countered in a completely unrealistic fashion liking firing direct fire weapons like TOWs indirectly or out of range to mass kill infantry because you get a free reload with some incendiaries.

I kinda agree with snooggums, BVR with any CAS seems ok for me.

On most maps CAS is tasked mainly to take out armor. Now if you're in an attack chopper the only way to destroy a tank or apc is to use missiles meaning you can't attack it from beyond visual range because you have to see the lase (or the vehicle...). Any AA in the area will have an opportunity to lock and probably kill you.

Additionally on most maps, with the exception of muttrah (and quinling 32 i think), both sides has "something that flies and has AA missiles" meaning that there is a way to counter the omfgbvr attacking apache/havoc/whatever.

Even if this tactics is used with an apc or a tank people have to remember: if you're getting bombed/cannoned from beyond visual range someone has seen you, managed to target you, maybe even use radio to call for cas and lased.

I've seen quite a few mec squads at muttrah don't care about that guy up in the mountain or simply shooting at him from the roof. People have to remember that in reality that guy might be JTAC as well, calling for death from above.

On the other hand, using TOW emplacements BVR (!) for killing inf (!!) is just... wrong. That's almost compeltely ofttopic, but i think TOW humvee has it's reload time much longer tan in the previous patch. I thing implementing the same reload time for TOWs would decrease using it against inf.


My 2 cents...

I just came back here to point out that TOWs should detonate like Hellfires do... cannon fire is fine as its RPS is:

CAS>Infantry>Spotter

Tows should behave like Hellfires or Hellfires should behave like TOWs. Either both detonate at X distance (possibly 1100m) or both do not detonate.