Project Reality Forums

The problem is that we're too obsessed with nerfing and buffing to make everything be balanced. Give the TOW a realistic turn rate, and give tanks appropriate capability to counteract the TOW. Something like giving them pseudo-FLIR would be fine.

Something like giving them pseudo-FLIR

hardly going to give tanks more survivability against TOWs....its not like its hard to see the TOW positions

but a firing delay on TOWs would increase the time for Tanks to see and either avoid or destroy the TOW.

IMO the TOW should be made such that it's not possible to track a fast moving target. In reality, if the missile leaves the FOV of the flare sensor, it will self-destruct.

Adding a .5 second firing delay would also be good. FLIR would allow tanks to spot the TOW.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:hardly going to give tanks more survivability against TOWs....its not like its hard to see the TOW positions

but a firing delay on TOWs would increase the time for Tanks to see and either avoid or destroy the TOW.

On Silent Eagle it is really hard to spot teh TOW, lots of trees bushes, and its all kinda fog'ish and dark.

Nebsif wrote:On Silent Eagle it is really hard to spot teh TOW, lots of trees bushes, and its all kinda fog'ish and dark.

That says more about the tactics being used then the problem with tov.

So instead of making up new tactics to deal with a powerful asset, we just want it nerfed because it's not fair against vehicles? A tank killing a full squad with one shot isn't fair either, let's nerf that too?
I think the tow should be overpowered against armor, that's the job it's meant to do. There are so many ways to counter it you just have to be creative and work together with the team.

To get rid of the tow sniping infantry, just decrease the zoom and increase the reload time. I would love to see the concept of the constant supply drops for all deployables, that would balance the infinite ammo problem.

Also remove the tows from 1k maps please, that just doesn't makes any sense.

Bufl4x wrote:So instead of making up new tactics to deal with a powerful asset, we just want it nerfed because it's not fair against vehicles? A tank killing a full squad with one shot isn't fair either, let's nerf that too?
I think the tow should be overpowered against armor, that's the job it's meant to do. There are so many ways to counter it you just have to be creative and work together with the team.

To get rid of the tow sniping infantry, just decrease the zoom and increase the reload time. I would love to see the concept of the constant supply drops for all deployables, that would balance the infinite ammo problem.

Also remove the tows from 1k maps please, that just doesn't makes any sense.

It's not the armor killing problem, it's the fact that it can shoot helicopters better then an AA emplacement. I once got shot down heading full speed in a helicopter by a TOW, didn't hear an alarm or anything. The traverse speed is too fast. It needs to be very slow.

i'm reading something of:
-reload time up to60secs
-splash dmg reduce by half or more
-3 rocktes + one already loaded

I don't think it's necessaty to do so.
1. remember, only 2 TOWs per Map. so u will not have something like "TOW spam"
2. decreasing splash dmg. is that realistic ? no!
and if u HAVE to shoot at infantry, cause they are pointing at u, it's sure that u'll miss themw with 2m splash (depends on the distance).

3. The only thing what needs a change is, that the amount of ammo should get reduced.
4 rockets,+ 1 inside. it's enough to take out 4 vehicles+1miss & helps stopping the waste of this expensive "hardware" against infantry...

don't try to correct everything, if the most things are going well...

K4on wrote:i'm reading something of:
-reload time up to60secs
-splash dmg reduce by half or more
-3 rocktes + one already loaded

I don't think it's necessaty to do so.
1. remember, only 2 TOWs per Map. so u will not have something like "TOW spam"
2. decreasing splash dmg. is that realistic ? no!
and if u HAVE to shoot at infantry, cause they are pointing at u, it's sure that u'll miss themw with 2m splash (depends on the distance).
.

Have you ever actually played a round?

1) False. All it takes is 1 TOW on a hillside to lock down an entire quarter of a map.
2)TOW's don't miss, you seem to forget. Massive zoom and pinpoint accuracy, coupled with large splash damage. It's the perfect Sniper Rifle.

10 minutes ago I got owned by a TOW in Operation Archer

They set it up on the castle, in less than 15 minutes,

they shot down two of our weapons cache by their high scope zoom and killed more than 50+ inf in less than 20 minutes

It was BS so I disconnected the server

I also think that only 1 TOW Emplacement per Map would be better, rather than on Some Maps (I'm looking at you Yamalia) every 500m there's a TOW...

K4on - it's not going well, just for the people who use the TOW emplacements...

i don't mean that the numer of tows should get more. if there is the possibility, to make the townumber depending on each map or gamemode (insurgency or inf layout/ big maps like quinling or silent eagle 2 tows, muttrah one for example) i'll fully agree with that.
also i said, the amount of ammo per tow should get reduced, to use it in it's way it has to:
against armored vehicles.

maybe i was a bit harsh when i said:

K4on wrote:3. The only thing what needs a change is,...

BUT I'm still for not takin off the power out of the deployable tow. cause then u have to make those changes @ bradly and bmp3 aswell.

OP is awesome

K4on wrote: 2. decreasing splash dmg. is that realistic ? no!

Actually, having recently ran this by advisers, what we have currently in-game is way too high. Considering that these are anti-tank emplacements, it stands to reason that we are not modelling warhead variants that are designed for anti-bunker/infantry use. We're modelling a shaped charge anti-tank warhead that's designed for armour penetration, not anti-personnel use.

Perhaps a limit depending on map size? 1 TOW for 1x1km/2x2km and 2 TOWs for 4x4km?

Also, 4-5 rockets seem like a good change, decreased splash damage and TOWs wouldn't be such a pain anymore. Right now it's a anti-everything weapon. Better optics than the sniper, aswell as better accuracy.

nehil, thats exactly what i meant. and no tows for insurgency.

I'm surprised at how overpowered people find the TOWs... are your snipers/inf too busy reconning the hills in H8 or something to lend a hand to keep people off them? Tonight on beirut we [as IDF] had pushed the russians to docks and they had bunkered down well with a firebase. They had a TOW that overlooked the hills to the south and had killed an unknowing M113 (me ) earlier. After evaluating our options, we contacted the sniper (ReconAus) over teamspeak and he took care of that TOW after moving into position. We also had the option of artillery but that would've been overkill for a mere 3 squads against a tank & 2 squads on our team. Our tank simply held position behind a hill until the sniper had taken care of the TOW (and to be honest, an auto rifle or marksman could've done the same thing) and then as the infantry lined the hill, the tank rolled down to secure the entrance. Simple as that.

The TOW has little to no protection to the occupant and in our experience a single infantry can keep a TOW down or occupied long enough for another to kill it... it just takes that pesky thing called teamwork. Of course, there are some factors that certainly could look at adjustment, such as the reload speed and ammo count. Since the thing can be destroyed and rebuilt quite quickly I believe a lower ammo count can be justified, as well as a longer reload to keep the TOW thinking about his highest priority target "Yes I could shoot the logi truck, but is a bradley going to round the corner in the next minute?".

The splash damage can be reduced because IMO that makes no difference, all I see it used on is vehicles and the occasional last ditch effort to kill the troop that is shooting at him... not this constant 'TOW vs inf' spam that seems to happen elsewhere and is supposedly a huge issue.

Regarding the helicopter issue: The only time I've seen choppers go down by TOW is -
1) When they hover there like idiots
2) When they fly directly towards or away from the emplacement with no jinking. That makes it far too easy, a tank can shoot you down in those situations...

If you do get shot down by a TOW flying full speed while perpendicular to it, I'd say that's pretty bad luck but hey what do I know... it's not like I've spent a lot of time in choppers or anything [/sarcasm].

Honestly though... nerf them, don't nerf them... I don't really care. We survived as inf in PR for 3 years without AT emplacements, it's not like they've suddenly become the only way to kill armour, we can always just readjust. It was nice to be able to defend an area properly for once though against both tanks and inf without having to deprive the guys on assault of the HAT kits.

Anyway! That's my 2c

I only wish there was a way to limit the quantity of munitions available to each team from the start of a round, similar to a realistic supply chain. But unfortunately, this isn't possible with PR for various reasons.

In real life the only times I've ever seen or heard of using a TOW or other ATGM against a single troop is when that unit was a substantial risk to other soldiers, such as a sniper or rocket crew.


There are many reasons for this, but mostly two primary reasons come to mind.

First, those are not cheap munitions. You don't thump a $25k round (or what ever the cost) at a single enemy infantryman. A simple fireteam should be capable of killing the *******, and at a much cheaper cost. But a sniper on the other hand is a good example of when one might be used, if attacking that enemy unit with a smaller squad might be too much risk. For example, when you see grunts firing a Javelin into a house over in Iraq or Afghanistan, they aren't using those weapons against some numbnut packing an AK-47. They're using those weapons against snipers, RPG gunners, or guys known to be detonating IED's.

Second, a TOW team is not going to be out on the front lines by themselves. They are not a primary weapon system, they are a support weapon. So where ever you see a TOW, there is bound to be at least 1-3 more squads of badass grunts close nearby. And those infantry forces are going to be much more effective at defeating other ground troops than trying to hit him with a missile.


The problem with the M220 and other similar weapon systems being used against infantry is not because the weapon systems in game are designed poorly or that they are too weak/powerful. The problem lies with the players, who have no military training, no real knowledge of tactics, and tend to do what they want how they want. These are the same players who want the M82/M107 in game for anti-personnel use. These are the same people who use the AT-4 to attack a subcompact car when there is a whole damn squad standing right there with automatic weapons. Players are the reason this happens, not the weapon system.

So, since we can't limit the number of reloads available, the best option in my opinion would be to increase the reload times. Fuck realism, I say double the reload times. Make the gunners really think about their target, and really consider the risks/benefits of engaging a target with that weapon system. And maybe it will even force players to start defending in a proper and realistic manner, by using multiple forms of cover instead of using a single M220 to defend an entire damn outpost.


Generally, in the past I've always been a strong advocate of realism. I felt that if a weapon or vehicle system, regardless of what it is, should be added to the game with the most amount of realism possible while still being within the limits of suitable gameplay. At times there are aspects that must be increased or decreased outside of their realistic limits, such as the blast radius of certain bombs. This is one of the rare instances in which I vote to modify an item's realistic data in order to function better towards gameplay.

If the reload times are greatly increased, ammunition supplies decreased, and build/rebuild times increased, then maybe players will start learning how to use the M220 and variants in a proper manner.



If you want a defensive weapon for engaging infantry forces or light vehicles, use the damn M2HB!

If A Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire data link, guided missile can be operated in PR with paralleled ease as of a 5.56mm Rifle, something is wrong.

Field Cannons on Yamalia, that is another solution to this problem. Have the God-Cannon be operated using WASD keys, not only does it takes more talent and skill, it brings out the reality of rotary physics and friction while deployed with a bipod.

-[GCA] Wo0Do0

Bufl4x wrote:So instead of making up new tactics to deal with a powerful asset, we just want it nerfed because it's not fair against vehicles? A tank killing a full squad with one shot isn't fair either, let's nerf that too?
I think the tow should be overpowered against armor, that's the job it's meant to do. There are so many ways to counter it you just have to be creative and work together with the team.

To get rid of the tow sniping infantry, just decrease the zoom and increase the reload time. I would love to see the concept of the constant supply drops for all deployables, that would balance the infinite ammo problem.

Also remove the tows from 1k maps please, that just doesn't makes any sense.

" A tank killing a full squad with one shot isn't fair either, let's nerf that too?" Its a tank.