Project Reality Forums

You should not be able to throw them out of choppers, otherwise they are fine.

On a side note...there should be a way to disable grenade traps.

To pick this up: It's possible to disable them with the wrench.

i could have sworn jaymz said that this was a recent change that went ary and that they are changing it in the next patch?

Honestly, these little things should remain as it is. It's a limited kit, and there is a preparation involved.

Area must be secured long enough.
You must know which room the cache is in.
The engineer must be brought up.

At least with the argument against the artillery killing caches was that you could just click and drop the thing and *BLAMO*, +25 tickets.

Insurgents can IED the cache room, with comms it can be nearly impossible to actually get the cache without losing dozens of tickets in an attempt to blow the cache. If the US team gets close enough to your compound to put a block of C4 on the wall then they deserve the cache.

IEDs do not do damage to caches anymore to prevent asshats running into servers and teamkilling the cache as well as accidental cache teamkills.

It is absolutely absurd to think that a faction as advanced as the blufor would actually bother sending troops down into staircase covered by a wall of machinegun fire after a pile of guns, ammo and explosives. Yeah Sarge, try explaining that to Johnny's mom.

It's equally absurd to assume that the blufor team should be encouraged to waste tickets in this fashion when there are and should be other options at the ready for a situation like this where you have total perimeter control except for a small room.

It's realistic. They would level the building if traditional clearing tactics were ineffective.

Hmm, if this vid shows you the explosion of 1kg C4

Then I can imagine the C4 we got in game making sure the building will be demolished..

Psykogundam wrote:i could have sworn jaymz said that this was a recent change that went ary and that they are changing it in the next patch?

I'd like to see a dev post on this.

The whole argument here of realism vs gameplay is BS. If the C4 can blow things up through walls, so should IEDs.

The argument for C4 being over powered goes both ways. My friends and I can easily take out 5-6 caches with C4 in a game.. because WE KNOW IT'S EASY. We choose not to do this regularly because it's more fun and more of a challenge to actually clear the building. It's ALWAYS possible to clear a cache, it just take coordination

What the problem is, is that the community as a whole is not teamwork-orientated enough to warrant C4 being able to destroy a cache through a wall. The C4 is just "an easy way out" to me and should be removed. Any half proficient squad can easily run over any insurgent/taliban position with C4. Is that fair? Hardly.

What I'm getting at is it's just COUNTER-INTUITIVE to have C4 take out caches. It does not reward teamwork. Infact it rewards running off the cache cause what's the point of defending a cache with your squad while the rest of the team dicks around and one us squad just walks by and places C4 on your location? In a perfect world, you'd have people actually working together, with 3~ squads of guys using teamwork to hold the cache building/compound. You'd have the whole US team using teamwork to coordinate an assault on a compound, with flank attacks and air support, it would be really cool. But this NEVER happens (outside of private games, at least), so C4 is an easy way out.

Like I said before, any half decent players can grab an engi kit, jump in a humvee, drive near the cache, jump out, drop c4, get back in and drive away and blow it up. How is that fair, or realistic? It's really not, that would NEVER happen in real life.

In the other sense, it really isn't THAT hard to overcome and enemy position. Use smoke and grenades and just time your attacks, and it's possible. My squad that I regularily play with has taken out basement caches defended by 4-5 guys without the help of C4. If we can do it, you can do it.

TL;DR : C4 IS JUST AN EASY WAY OUT FOR LESSER SKILLED PLAYERS TO WIN. People just need to get off their *** and coordinate a little bit otherwise they'll never be able to take a cache.

Remember that this is a videogame - not real life. Gameplay vs realism. The fact that you can destory caches through walls should be looked at as an exploit in my opinion.

JUST TO CLARIFY - C4 should be able to blow up a cache IF IT IS PLANTED ON THE CACHE. That seems fine to me. But through a wall? no

USA-Forever932 wrote:Honestly, these little things should remain as it is. It's a limited kit, and there is a preparation involved.

Area must be secured long enough.
You must know which room the cache is in.
The engineer must be brought up.

There really isn't, as a CE kit can just become part of a normal infantry squad. See below.

If the US team gets close enough to your compound to put a block of C4 on the wall then they deserve the cache.

No they don't since the biggest defense can be easily overcome by a roaming combat engineer. I've been on the giving end of a C4 raid and it was surprisingly easy. We literally rushed up to the cache in 2 Humvees on Kokan, and [R-CON]Nedlands planted one on it, destroyed it, then we later learned that there were about 15 Taliban in the village simply not watching. That is literally the best tactic for taking out a cache, as the alternative is trying to get as many incendiaries down on it before you get shot by an Insurgent. Its simple common sense that the area would be cleared before any sort of EOD takes place, but currently that isn't needed because you still get a substantial amount of tickets back.

Zerging a cache is unfortunately still the successful way to get it.

IEDs do not do damage to caches anymore to prevent asshats running into servers and teamkilling the cache as well as accidental cache teamkills.

Arty IED's do 90% less damage to caches in the recent patch, meaning that they still do damage it in some form. I've come up to a cache to get ammo/kits and seen it smoking in some cases, without the BLUFOR even touching it.

Basically the only solution to this dilemma (of course we've gone a tad off-topic here) is to make the incendiaries to extremely minor damage (so lots are used) to a cache on Insurgency maps in order to make sure that the BLUFOR has cleared the area. Otherwise, the sound blatantly says 'we're destroying your cache'...while still keeping the C4 as a one-shot kill so the engineer can be 'brought in' to destroy it if need be, while the grunts provide security.

dtacs wrote:Basically the only solution to this dilemma (of course we've gone a tad off-topic here) is to make the incendiaries to extremely minor damage (so lots are used) to a cache on Insurgency maps in order to make sure that the BLUFOR has cleared the area. Otherwise, the sound blatantly says 'we're destroying your cache'...while still keeping the C4 as a one-shot kill so the engineer can be 'brought in' to destroy it if need be, while the grunts provide security.

As long as it doesn't affect the cache through walls, that is sound. Either that or it should take a good while to deploy the C4 charge.

The Pipe Bomb IED is a very very very low yield explosive. Back in .85 that IED was quite powerful, but by .9 its power had been nerfed to be less anti vehicle and more anti personnel.

TL;DR : C4 IS JUST AN EASY WAY OUT FOR LESSER SKILLED PLAYERS TO WIN. People just need to get off their *** and coordinate a little bit otherwise they'll never be able to take a cache.

You are just mad that they got around your defense. They coordinated a plan and pulled it off. You or your team wasn't holding up a strong enough defense.

Remember that this is a videogame - not real life. Gameplay vs realism. The fact that you can destory caches through walls should be looked at as an exploit in my opinion.

Artillery IEDs kill vehicles through terrain and walls. It is not an exploit but a feature of the weapon.

JUST TO CLARIFY - C4 should be able to blow up a cache IF IT IS PLANTED ON THE CACHE. That seems fine to me. But through a wall? no

Why? Your only justifications for this is because it is 'unfair in your opinion' while plenty of other people have brought some semblance of evidence proving that it is realistic.

Is it fair or particularly skillful to kill an infantry man with a tank? Not really. Is it realistic? Yes. Is it game breaking? No.

C4 shouldn't have a 20m range through numerous walls but it also should be able to kill through 1 wall within 15 to 10m.

ytman wrote:The Pipe Bomb IED is a very very very low yield explosive. Back in .85 that IED was quite powerful, but by .9 its power had been nerfed to be less anti vehicle and more anti personnel.



You are just mad that they got around your defense. They coordinated a plan and pulled it off. You or your team wasn't holding up a strong enough defense.



Artillery IEDs kill vehicles through terrain and walls. It is not an exploit but a feature of the weapon.



Why? Your only justifications for this is because it is 'unfair in your opinion' while plenty of other people have brought some semblance of evidence proving that it is realistic.

Is it fair or particularly skillful to kill an infantry man with a tank? Not really. Is it realistic? Yes. Is it game breaking? No.

C4 shouldn't have a 20m range through numerous walls but it also should be able to kill through 1 wall within 15 to 10m.

I think you missed my point. It's incredibly easy to kill a cache with C4. I've done it time and time again as blufor, because it's just too easy.

Let me lay it out for you:

1. Make squad with two guys. Lock
2. Grab medic and engi kit.
3. Grab a logi or humvee, who cares theres only two of us and we're going to get back 25 tickets amirite.
4. Drive to cache location.
5. Find enemy strongpoint
6. Plant c4 near suspected cache
7. Run
8. Blow. Cache is dead or not. Repeat if neccesary.

If that's what you say is poor defending, then I guess I'm wrong. This is how it works in real life right? Two dudes just load up in a humvee and C4 buildings lolrite?

Heres a different, more exploitive version.

1. Make squad with two guys. Lock. Who needs teamwork pft
2. Get engi and pilot kit.
3. Grab blackhawk
4. Fly over the cache becasue the BH is pretty much indestructible now (not necessarily a bad thing)
5. Drop C4 near expected cache location
6. Fly for a bit.
7. ?????
8. Profit

Taking a cache shouldn't be this easy. While I agree C4 should be able to destroy caches, doing it through walls is a game breaking flaw because 95% of the time it is not facilitating any teamwork, which is counter-intuitive of the main basis of the mod.

Gameplay VS realism. I'm not here complaining about inf getting killed with a tank. That is such an off topic comparison it's not even valid. I'm complaining about the lack of teamwork involved in killing caches with C4, through walls. The counter argument everyone keeps laying down here is that it's realistic to kill through walls. Sure, I 100% agree. Which leads to everyone saying "oh you're not holding it enough because the blufor is getting in and placing C4 close to your building which is realistic". So me driving/flying around the map killing caches without sustaining losses because I can just blow up any building I feel has the cache is realistic now.

HMM INTERESTING

C4 shouldn't have a 20m range through numerous walls but it also should be able to kill through 1 wall within 15 to 10m.

Truth, but that isn't possible to code. Someone with knowledge of the engine would have to comment, but the same thing happens with the ArtyIED since they share the same effect. Although this isn't a suggestion thread, until this can be overcome C4/IED's ability to completely bypass objects needs to be removed, as this is currently possible (as shown below)



Notice that even if that solid 10m wall was made out of diamond in PR, the cache would still explode as the effect goes through static objects.

Simple solution to all your concerns: have an invisible (or not) BF2-style "flag" on the same place as the cache. Validate the cache kill only if the area is already seized by BLUFOR, otherwise spawn the next one without any scoring/tickets.

stilpu wrote:Simple solution to all your concerns: have an invisible (or not) BF2-style "flag" on the same place as the cache. Validate the cache kill only if the area is already seized by BLUFOR, otherwise spawn the next one without any scoring/tickets.

This is amazing. Requiring visual confirmation of a downed cache, I really like this solution.

Bravo sir, bravo.

dtacs wrote:Truth, but that isn't possible to code. Someone with knowledge of the engine would have to comment, but the same thing happens with the ArtyIED since they share the same effect. Although this isn't a suggestion thread, until this can be overcome C4/IED's ability to completely bypass objects needs to be removed, as this is currently possible (as shown below)



Notice that even if that solid 10m wall was made out of diamond in PR, the cache would still explode as the effect goes through static objects.

Yes, that's understandable IRL, but if you have a cache heavily defended for 30 minutes racking up the frags and a lone soldier drives up and pulls this garbage out of his pocket through a wall....kinda cheap...OR even through 3 walls....even better.

In real life, if you hide in basement whit one way out, they would set exblosives and blow it up. Defend area around the cache. Not just hide in small room waiting for them.

C4 Ins`t overpowered.

Tarranauha200 wrote:In real life, if you hide in basement whit one way out, they would set exblosives and blow it up. Defend area around the cache. Not just hide in small room waiting for them.

C4 Ins`t overpowered.

In real life they bluefor would probably blow the compound, but this isn't real life, is it?

Once again missing the point that this is indeed a GAME, a game that requires teamwork for it to be a fun. Blowing up a cache through 2 walls and some stairs because the bluefor can't think up a plan other than to keep rushing down stairs because they're not the sharpest knives in the drawer is not fun, BUT HEY THAT'S JUST ME. I like to play the game right.

Tarranauha200 wrote:In real life, if you hide in basement whit one way out, they would set exblosives and blow it up. Defend area around the cache. Not just hide in small room waiting for them.

C4 Ins`t overpowered.

AGAIN SOMEONE IS MISSING THE POINT.


Let me lay it out for you:

1. Make squad with two guys. Lock
2. Grab medic and engi kit.
3. Grab a logi or humvee, who cares theres only two of us and we're going to get back 25 tickets amirite.
4. Drive to cache location.
5. Find enemy strongpoint
6. Plant c4 near suspected cache
7. Run
8. Blow. Cache is dead or not. Repeat if neccesary.

Is it so hard to read guys? I understand that if a team is held up in a compound in real life the blufor or whatever force would just blow it up, SURE. BUT IT'S NOT REAL LIFE.

This kind of REAL LIFE BULLSHIT is the kind of things that lead to EXPLOITS. The exploit being any old idiot can just run up and plant C4 on this building. I do it to compounds filled with taliban. IT REALLY IS EASY AND SIMPLE AND COMPLETELY COUNTER INTUITIVE OF THE POINT OF THE MOD.

I'd really like to see a DEV speak out on this.

Tarranauha200 wrote:In real life, if you hide in basement whit one way out, they would set exblosives and blow it up. Defend area around the cache. Not just hide in small room waiting for them.

I always thought that destroying cache is symbol of Blufor seizing area with enemy weapons and disarming its local area to prevent Insurgents strikes. If not why not dropping bomb there or nuke it with artillery/mortars or anything that can clean area from distance?

It's fine to blow people up with C4 in basement, but getting cache with it, dropping C4 from BH or rushing with humvee to destroy it just by sticking it to the random buildings at cache marker defeats purpose of Insurgency gamemode same as getting caches with Artillery (not possible since 0.9) or CAS (which was nerfed in 0.95). Blufor has to deploy teamwork and strategy to win.

Kain888 wrote:I always thought that destroying cache is symbol of Blufor seizing area with enemy weapons and disarming its local area to prevent Insurgents strikes. If not why not dropping bomb there or nuke it with artillery/mortars or anything that can clean area from distance?

It's fine to blow people up with C4 in basement, but getting cache with it, dropping C4 from BH or rushing with humvee to destroy it just by sticking it to the random buildings at cache marker defeats purpose of Insurgency gamemode same as getting caches with Artillery (not possible since 0.9) or CAS (which was nerfed in 0.95). Blufor has to deploy teamwork and strategy to win.

Winner.

Kain888 wrote:I always thought that destroying cache is symbol of Blufor seizing area with enemy weapons and disarming its local area to prevent Insurgents strikes. If not why not dropping bomb there or nuke it with artillery/mortars or anything that can clean area from distance?

It's fine to blow people up with C4 in basement, but getting cache with it, dropping C4 from BH or rushing with humvee to destroy it just by sticking it to the random buildings at cache marker defeats purpose of Insurgency gamemode same as getting caches with Artillery (not possible since 0.9) or CAS (which was nerfed in 0.95). Blufor has to deploy teamwork and strategy to win.

I'm glad they nerfed the CAS, in the basement it still shouldn't be able to kill the cache through walls but I do agree with your whole post to a large extent.