Project Reality Forums

Zpoilt wrote:OR it could all be solved by being able to pick up US kits again! The most realistic and non-hardcoded way to go by. Why they changed it to what it is now is still a big mystery to me, where you can use some kits but not all of them. It does'nt make any sense at all.

So that HAT kits, sniper kits, etc aren't used by the opposing faction. Do you think the generic farmland iraqi knows how to accurately use and operate a SRAW?

Dev1200 wrote:So that HAT kits, sniper kits, etc aren't used by the opposing faction. Do you think the generic farmland iraqi knows how to accurately use and operate a SRAW?

yes. look the general thing here is that project reality isn't a perfect simulation of real world combat. Sometimes certain things can't be accomplished because the engine just doesn't allow it. I think this is one of those things.

Also remember this also applies to kits outside of insurgency, maybe a farmland taliban couldn't figure it out, but a full fledged chinese soldier to figure out a USMC grenadier rifle? or a USMC soldier being able to use a RPG7 but not a AK47 with a bipod and a bigger clip? or a taliban being able to use a rifleman rifle, but not a crewman kit? that's just getting extreme.

The only thing I feel should be blocked is the HAT kit, and only on insurgency maps. and thats not because I don't think insurgents couldn't figure it out (not that I think they could, I don't) but because inexperienced new players always take the hat kit out to where it shouldn't be. In fact I think we should take the HAT kit out entirely on insurgent maps.

If we're gonna start blocking picking up enemy kits, then we should start disallowing rally spawns, and giving the mortars way larger effective ranges like in RL, or allow respawning at all, etc etc etc. In general this change is just not consistent with the rest of the game.

IIRC it is also very shunned upon to use enemy weapons. People could easily mistake you for a bad guy, if you use their equipment. In desperate situations, IE you ran out of ammo, you can pick up any kit and defend yourself with it. Otherwise, use what's given to you. Sure, it might be "cool" to use an enemy grenadier, sniper kit, whatever. It's just not realistic.

Dev1200 wrote:IIRC it is also very shunned upon to use enemy weapons. People could easily mistake you for a bad guy, if you use their equipment. In desperate situations, IE you ran out of ammo, you can pick up any kit and defend yourself with it. Otherwise, use what's given to you. Sure, it might be "cool" to use an enemy grenadier, sniper kit, whatever. It's just not realistic.

and the people who do that will face the consequences, the point isn't that its shunned, the point is that players should still have the option. Stealing and crashing helicopters is shunned against too, as well as rushing into enemy fire. just because its the not-so-smart thing to do doesn't mean we shouldn't allow players to do it. What's the point of playing a game where players are only allowed to make the "right" decisions.

If you pick up an enemy kit, you might get shot by your own team, and that's that. If you're a tank and you drive into the middle of a suburb with no infantry support you might get C4'd, and that's also that... the list goes on. For those who want to discourage enemy kit use maybe we should make it so getting teamkilled puts your respawn time to max. That would discourage players from going out on their own, especially with an enemy kit.

And I also think the main reason people support the kit block system is because of insurgency, so I reiterate: we should take out the requestable HAT kit from all insurgency maps. For regular AAS maps I'm not convinced (even from a realism point of view)

Bluedrake42 wrote: What's the point of playing a game where players are only allowed to make the "right" decisions.
[...]
we should take out the requestable HAT kit from all insurgency maps.

*cough*

Also, increasing the team kill spawn timer doesn't make any sense at all to me, can you elaborate how mucking about with it would make people less likely to take enemy kits?

Swado95 wrote:So if US drops c4 we (insergents) get arty shell. If they drop HAT we get rpg. Except for more arty shells its just still not the same. There are alot of RPGs so its still wouldnt change gamplay that much. The insergent forces run off scavenged weapons. It was better the old way if anything since it kept people from being dum and thinking about what they really need.

If the reason it was taken out is because the insergent wouldnt know how to use it. Well I bet it takes 5 min to go online and look up how to use most of these weapons.

no no, what he means is they get the explosives from the kit. if a HAT is killed there will be NO RPG for the insurgents, that conversion is ridiculous. they would just get more IEDs. You cannot turn an ERYX into an RPG, but you can take an ERYX,take it apart and turn it into an IED.

they DO NOT get an equivalent kit, they get a kit which features an IED with the equivalent explosive power of what that soldier was carrying.

Im afraid that this suggestion may be rejected
I just dont see how an M21 magically becomes an SVD, or how an M4 becomes an SKS/AK-47/AK-74 etc....

I believe many of you are just saying no for sake of saying no :/

It would make perfect sense for the combat engine kit and HAT. Insurgents can easily use the C4 in the combat engine for IEDs, and you they could probably use the warhead in the HAT for the same purpose. I believe the poster gave an excellent suggestion on how to stop the coalition kit whoring.

Bringerof_D wrote:no no, what he means is they get the explosives from the kit. if a HAT is killed there will be NO RPG for the insurgents, that conversion is ridiculous. they would just get more IEDs. You cannot turn an ERYX into an RPG, but you can take an ERYX,take it apart and turn it into an IED.

they DO NOT get an equivalent kit, they get a kit which features an IED with the equivalent explosive power of what that soldier was carrying.

ohhhhh okay, yeah if they just converted all the explosive kits to an IED that would make sense to me

mat552 wrote:*cough*

Also, increasing the team kill spawn timer doesn't make any sense at all to me, can you elaborate how mucking about with it would make people less likely to take enemy kits?

Because if you have an enemy kit you're more likely to get killed. IE some newbee picks up an enemy kit and goes lonewolfing, and when he gets shot unless he's revived he gets penalized. Therefore more people would think twice before picking up an enemy kit when out on the battlefield.

Sgt.BountyOrig wrote:Im afraid that this suggestion may be rejected
I just dont see how an M21 magically becomes an SVD, or how an M4 becomes an SKS/AK-47/AK-74 etc....

nonono I get it now, what he means is that all the weapons that have explosives with them would be used as IED's for the insurgents. All the other weapons would stay the same

mat552 wrote:For certain kits, to be determined at the discretion of the MAs or DEVs, I suggest now that certain kits issued to Coalition forces during the insurgency game mode also drop a roughly equivalent kit obtainable by the Insurgents. Upon picking up either kit, the other should dissipate.

In example:
A US soldier obtains a Combat Engineer kit and merrily makes his lonewolfing, unsupported, way into Ramiel. After he is inevitably slaughtered by a squad or two of defending insurgent forces, both his Combat Engineer kit and an Artillery IED kit are spawned on his body. Either the US forces successfully recover the kit and the Artillery IED kit disappears, or the insurgent forces recover the IED kit and the CE kit is returned to the pool in 5/10 minutes.

The purpose of this is to simulate stripping the explosives or useful bombmaking components from US kits obtained in the field, as well as to reintroduce an element of caution required when using these extremely powerful kits in the field.

Some of the conversions would inevitably be more awkward than others, such as a SRAW turning into an RPG7 or similar, but I feel it would introduce realistic behavior through a gameplay oriented change.

Possible issue: Kitswapping behavior could return in an altered form, wherein an insurgent will make arrangements out of game with a coalition player to gain an extra kit, but I have faith the admins and players of PR would catch and deal with this behavior.

What about when the kit is merely dropped? cause I can see the insurgents accidentally picking up the wrong kit first. Or the coalition for that matter

Sgt.BountyOrig wrote:Im afraid that this suggestion may be rejected
I just dont see how an M21 magically becomes an SVD, or how an M4 becomes an SKS/AK-47/AK-74 etc....

amazing_retard wrote: It would make perfect sense for the combat engine kit and HAT. Insurgents can easily use the C4 in the combat engine for IEDs, and you they could probably use the warhead in the HAT for the same purpose. I believe the poster gave an excellent suggestion on how to stop the coalition kit whoring.

Bluedrake42 wrote:ohhhhh okay, yeah if they just converted all the explosive kits to an IED that would make sense to me

No no, I do in fact mean that an M21 should ALSO drop an SVD. There would be two kits dropped from a special requestable kit with my suggestion.

I am not suggesting a SRAW magically turns into an RPG, nor that an M4 becomes a FAL (Officer kit conversion) The intent of this suggestion is to reintroduce a measure of caution to coalition forces which can now be seen using kits for no other reason than the insurgents can't pick them up.

This change is, in and of itself, unrealistic. But I strongly believe it will promote realistic behavior.

Right now, there is absolutely no penalty, coded or implied, for lonewolfing with any kit in PR. Period. The reason people used to behave more intelligently was because they knew that if they screwed around and took a HAT or CE, by themselves, into an insurgent stronghold, they would be damaging their team. With the change implemented in .957, they no longer have any incentive to behave in this manner.

Again, to be perfectly clear:


US Lonewolf HAT player dies in insurgency mode.

• On his body, two kits are dropped.
• One is the US HAT kit, containing the SRAW. The insurgents CANNOT pick up this guided missile because they don't have the training or logistics to resupply it.
• One is the RPG-7 with Tandem Warhead. The US forces cannot pick up this missile system because it is inferior to their equipment and it would, thanks to the magic of bf2, make them look like the enemy.
• If the Insurgent forces get to the body first, they may pick up the RPG-7, causing the US HAT to disappear within 5 seconds.
• If the US forces get to the body first, they may either revive their soldier or pick up the HAT kit, causing the RPG-7 to disappear within 5 seconds.

In either case, the stupidity and arrogance of the US player gives the insurgent team a chance to benefit. It doesn't automatically give them a powerful weapon, but if they're good, or the US team is really stupid, they'll have more tools to win the round.

Further questions?

Bluedrake42 wrote:Because if you have an enemy kit you're more likely to get killed. IE some newbee picks up an enemy kit and goes lonewolfing, and when he gets shot unless he's revived he gets penalized. Therefore more people would think twice before picking up an enemy kit when out on the battlefield.

I don't think that first statement is accurate in game. While many players shoot first and ask questions later, the terrible accuracy of troops means that usually no harm is actually done. If it's a newbie, then he's not going to make the connection between "enemy kit" and "really arbitrary spawn time". If it's an experienced player, he's going to be pissed he's being penalized for other people's mistakes, and rightly so. One of the most rampant problems in PR right now is just that, you and your friends are penalized because Joe Blue can't pull his head out of his ****.

As far as the post after that, I did mean to add there should be a very short delay. Not a delay that gives players a time to exploit the kit, such as is currently present, but one just short enough that you either need two people or to be really quick on the draw. If you and a buddy get together, you can grab one kit, and he can grab the other, then whoever grabbed the wrong one can switch back with a fair bit of ease.

mat552 wrote:No no, I do in fact mean that an M21 should ALSO drop an SVD. There would be two kits dropped from a special requestable kit with my suggestion.

I am not suggesting a SRAW magically turns into an RPG, nor that an M4 becomes a FAL (Officer kit conversion) The intent of this suggestion is to reintroduce a measure of caution to coalition forces which can now be seen using kits for no other reason than the insurgents can't pick them up.

oh... yeah then I'd just rather take away the kit block system then have that.