Limit altitude for Helicopters

[Brainlaag]

I am sorry to say, the best I have ever seen it in is in CA and thats not really possible in PR.

Flying will always be unrealistic in PR until view gets increased, engagement ranges get implemented, and targeting systems are sorted.

I just cannot see how limiting altitude will help. Its very annoying that you get hit from above, thats why you hit
them first.
Edit: To add to this, its not impossible to kill someone who dives on you nor is it necessary to go higher, but what are you doing out there if there is enemy heli threat anyway like you say? If you know the enemy heli is out, the last thing you do is go and hover 800m to kill tanks, either you hunt the enemy, or stay back on the pad until its down, whatever you feel you can achieve best.

If the altitude is limited, same is going to happen but lower, except this time you are exposed to everything on the map.

AA has a 1200m range at least btw.

Consider attack angle also, its going to be hilarious for any experienced land crewman if the altitude was limited.

Think of altitude as a metaphor for larger map area, more view distance and land concealment at the moment anyway.

One word is appropriate...amen.

[Zoddom]

I just cannot see how limiting altitude will help.

let me sort some things:

for doing your actual role, CAS, you can fly at a maximum of 900m. so then youre exposed to any ground units anyway. if the limit was at 1000m it would force you to stay out of the enemy territory and stick with you team. it would both be easier for the team and for the pilot as he doesnt really have to worry about the enemy CAS because it wont be able to sneak around (or over) your whole team anymore, or you wont be at a place with no ground based backup anymore. (this will be the case with AASv4 anyway)
since pilots wont change their strategies out of free will you have to enforce it, with the altitude limit as an example, perhaps there are other and even better solutions (see removing AA missiles).

Its very annoying that you get hit from above, thats why you hit
them first.

yes and if it wouldnt be possible anymore neither of you would, and thats what i want to achiev.
dont you see that it makes no difference for the degree of difficulty when hunting helis cause you just WONT do this anymore. and when doing CAS youve been endangered by AA since the beginning

[Alex6714]

yes and if it wouldnt be possible anymore neither of you would, and thats what i want to achiev.
dont you see that it makes no difference for the degree of difficulty when hunting helis cause you just WONT do this anymore. and when doing CAS youve been endangered by AA since the beginning

This is the problem. Why wouldn?t I do it anymore? I cannot provide safe CAS if there is a possibility of someone coming at me from the air, above, below or level with me, AA missiles or not, they are still a threat.

Remember in VBF2, no AA missiles, 800m limitation more or less. Did helis not hunt each other? Sometimes thats all they did. Granted, they had TV missiles which made it easier, but cannon and rockets are more deadly in PR.

[Zoddom]

This is the problem. Why wouldn?t I do it anymore? I cannot provide safe CAS if there is a possibility of someone coming at me from the air, above, below or level with me, AA missiles or not, they are still a threat.

it would not be possible to get above each other cause you both have the same limit!
and ofc ... im sure that most people would hunt but the hunt would be much riskier cause it would be an eye to eye fight and i believe it wouldnt be that easy to hit with the sidewinders when the enemy can see you and drops his flares. and i believe at least when both missiles are gone one of them would drop and escape behind the frontline where he knows its too risky for the other heli to follow.
then we reached a point where we can ask ourselves, is it still a good idea to hunt the enemy CAS as your primary target?
No.
Do you still have to worry that much about the enemy heli?
No, because being in range of ground troups means you are also in range of friendly AA, and if the enemy CAS considers this.... and i think they will, they wont hunt you jsut because its too risky.

Remember in VBF2, no AA missiles, 800m limitation more or less. Did helis not hunt each other? Sometimes thats all they did. Granted, they had TV missiles which made it easier, but cannon and rockets are more deadly in PR.

thats why i loved the first PR helos. their missiles worked just like in vanilla only that you could only click on visibile ground. and no AA missiles.
and if you think of the much lower visible range in 0.4 or earlier, for example steel thunder with cobra: the only way to take down the enemy was with the gun or the hydras and although it was easy because of the low visrange, i never experienced that someone "hunted the enemy heli".... perhaps it even was just because the ground troupos were much more dangerous today. i dont know man.... im confused.

[Alex6714]

it would not be possible to get above each other cause you both have the same limit!

You have the same limit now too?

[Murphy]

So after reading this thread I'm to assume that Choppers have absolutely no AA capabilties in RL, correct? The OP comes off as pissed at the world for having to deal with enemy choppers when he wants to help ground forces.

It's another dynamic of battle, if you can't handle the heat get out the kitchen. Limiting the altitude will probably reduce chopper dog fights, mainly because anyone packing more firepower then a standard rifle will be able to bring it down with some skill and luck. Please lower the altitude so I can use my tank to ground choppers more often

Not a well thought out suggestion, it's like saying "I'm tired of fighting APC vs APC on Muttrah, take them out or at least make them only able to go on the main roads". Limiting the ceiling for aircraft will just result is huge losses for airmen, and probably a drop in desire to actually jump into the air.

As it stands if you don't want to get ambushed while doing CAS runs just work with AA on the ground and fall back when someone on the ground tells you they hear the enemy chopper. Stop pwning the tanks for a moment and use your common sense, if ground forces are telling you enemy chopper is in the air LISTEN don't try to change a game mechanic because it doesn't suit your idea of fun.

I was in that Wanda Shan round (Playing FAC role as best I could) and your choppers played like they were blind folded, I even got a laze on you from the ground (but you didn't stick around too long). For you to want to change the air-power mechanics simply because you were outmaneuvered, basically every time, is very short sighted. I suggest learn from the tactics of others instead of trying to mutate air combat into something that only seems to appeal directly to you views.

I seem to recall another thread proposing more effective AA missles, and to be frank it made more sense.

[Zoddom]

You have the same limit now too?

because you have no limit at all? thats no limit, cmon.
now, the one who is higher has the advantage. thats a fact, ofc there are some lows who dont manage to kill the enemy when they are 1000m above but it would be best to not let those guys fly at all.
if it really would apply that we now have the same limit, we would end up in rising untill the round ends.
If both participants would have the same condition it would change the whole system. Being sure that you dont have an advantage will make you reconsider the pros and cons of a hunt.

@murphy:
as i see it IS the same situation as back then with the insta prone.
its not good for the gameplay just because everyone does it.

thats just like you would tell me to use ex_interp 0.1 in cs jsut because everyone else does it.

[Bringerof_D]

Air supremacy must first be established before CAS runs can begin. <what about this is not under stood? either way you have to kill the enemy chopper first, whether it is because it is a threat to you or your infantry is irrelevant, both choppers' first job should be taking out the other so by that logic you SHOULD be hunting the other chopper because it is a threat to you. that is the entire point of air supremacy is so you are not still fighting for it and losing birds. also unrealistic and dumb:

according to this site: http://gocalipso.com/aircraft/apache/spec.php

Maximum Altitude (Hover In-Ground Effect) (Sea Level Standard Day)

AH64A - 15,895 ft (4845 m)
AH64D - 14,650 ft (4465 m)
AH64D Longbow - 13,690 ft (4172 m)

Maximum Altitude (Hover Out-of-Ground Effect) (Hot Day 2000 ft 70o F)

AH64A - 11,215 ft (3418 m)
AH64D - 9,050 ft (2759 m)
AH64D Longbow - 7,960 ft (2427 m)

So the Lowest of the maximum altitudes is just over 2.4km on the heaviest model of this particular chopper

simply speaking without effective AA from ground units, the only thing left we can use to hunt enemy choppers at higher altitudes or at range is our own choppers. by that logic even the real military having AA missiles that can see past the next hill, would send out several billion dollar machines out to do the job. when thats the only effective option, it is realistic

[Brainlaag]

Your examples are starting to get ridiculous "oh he killed my neighbor, I'm gonna kill him now". Look, as you said, everyone is fixed at flying sky high, try to change your tactics a bit (just one game as try), and fly bloody low using every damn hill as cover (proved to be very effective when I tried it once). Right now you are so dogged in your idea, that you don't see the alternatives, nor are willing to accept them. I can only repeat myself: Not everyone plays and will play as you do. Even with the limited altitude there will always be the "I'm gonna take out the enemy air-threat"-guys. *sigh*..players are hardcoded

[Alex6714]

@murphy:
as i see it IS the same situation as back then with the insta prone.
its not good for the gameplay just because everyone does it.

thats just like you would tell me to use ex_interp 0.1 in cs jsut because everyone else does it.

I don?t think most are saying its good for gameplay, but limiting altitude is not the solution.

It would be like fixing prone diving by disabling fire when prone, or blacking out the screen when prone. Yeah, it kind of fixes it, but it sucks as bad and creates more problems in the end.

[Zoddom]

@bringerof:

the specs you posted dont really speak against my suggestion.
2,4km is in range of every damn AA weapon you can find and since we have to scale down everything in game (irl range of strela is about 8km, ingame 1200m) you cant say that an altitude of 2400m ingame would be realistic, for example you cant have helicopters being able to fly as high as jets ingame.
just limit the altitude to 1300 m, that would simulate a realistic maximum altitude (even more then a realistic since the range of a Strela-10 is 8km and the Hellfire a range of 8km too, so when attacking you will always be in range of the enemy AA) as youre out of range of every ground unit and have more than enough space to operate.... wheres the problem in having such a limit?
jsut because you cant do you completely unrealistic and lame I-fly-so-high-that-nobody-can-see-me-and-dive-down-on-the-enemy-cas-f*ck-yeah moves?
be honest, there is NO reason why we shouldnt have such a limit. the only question is how high it would exactly be placed.

[Reddeath]

So whats the plan if someone tried to go above the cap? Just blow up? I doubt the engine would be able to handle a slow stop and aim you back down, also what about maps with jets, I doubt the engine allows so helicopters cant go above ~1000 and jets can, sounds hard coded to me.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

[Hitman.2.5]

what good is your nice and shiny Apache if a Mi-28 is up your *** with its 120 inch cannon?

What the Fuck, I dont even?

And zoddom, if this was implemented, you would probably one of the first people to ***** when your shot down because you got pwned in the face with a 50 cal or an AA gun be cause you were busy doing aerobatics and ultra cool low level flying and BAM! 50 cal in your face , and then you would come back on here wanting it changed back... I just don't see why this change would be necessary, if SAMs were taken out and triple A units put in i'd be all for it, but thats not what your suggesting

[CallousDisregard]

be honest, there is NO reason why we shouldnt have such a limit. the only question is how high it would exactly be placed.

Here is a reason, I don't want a altitude limitation on any aircraft and I think the existing system works just fine.
The only question is who made you the sole source of what "we" should do ?

[Bringerof_D]

@bringerof:

the specs you posted dont really speak against my suggestion.
2,4km is in range of every damn AA weapon you can find

This has nothing to do with your reason to lower the altitude limit, Your reason is so helicopters would stop fighting each other and pay more attention to the ground.

but lets say for a second that you also want to fix the AA problem

2.4 km is not in range of your rifle, 2.4km is not in range of your tank guns, 2.4km is not in range of your damn TOW missile. It is in range of your AA such as stingers (~4.8km) and SA7s(3.7km). so instead of decreasing the altitude limit, lets increase the locking range of missiles.

(even more then a realistic since the range of a Strela-10 is 8km

Wrong, the Strela-10 is armed with 9m37 missiles OPERATIONAL range 5km meaning effective range is even lower. However your point still stands, the chopper is within range.

be honest, there is NO reason why we shouldnt have such a limit. the only question is how high it would exactly be placed.

there is no reason for there to not be a limit, but you're suggesting one thats completely ridiculous. besides isnt there already an altitude cap? i dont know the exact altitude but there has always been a certain hight where your aircraft just starts to go crazy and you lose control. And as far as i know it exists the same for both choppers and fix wing, so for maps like Kashan you're gonna have a problem.

well why not just put in that limit for maps with no jets you say? well lets see the cap isnt just a roof that says "you cant go any higher." no that cap doesnt limit your climb at all, it just makes you lose all control and fly off the map.

honestly looking at all your posts, the only reason you even suggested this was cause you were tired of someone pwning you just because they were patient enough to wait for thei chopper to climb instead of rushing straight into the fight like you.

[scharf]

Why dont you just go higher and hunt them down then im sure you wont complain ...

[CallousDisregard]

One of the best games I ever had as an attack helo gunner was 45min of firing at a little blip on a gray screen since we never came into AA range and simply held position just inside gun range.
46-0 and the SL, Dalke, only died 2 or three times.
I know BVR is no longer a realistic option but patience is a part of the game and if you don't have it or aren't willing to develop it, then you are going to be frustrated often in this game.
I have read that you need 2 out of 3 important factors in order to fly...
Altitude
Airspeed
Intelligence

[BrownBadger]

Instead of opting for a change in gameplay, just adapt and play differently. Most helicopter crews seem to fly at 1200 and above for the majority of a round, which means they will not be able to spot you at 500-600, provide CAS and keep looking out while doing so. As long as you're not in the same area long enough to give the enemy team a chance to reinforce with either AA or call in the attack helicopters on you, you will generally be fine.

[CallousDisregard]

Instead of opting for a change in gameplay, just adapt and play differently. Most helicopter crews seem to fly at 1200 and above for the majority of a round, which means they will not be able to spot you at 500-600, provide CAS and keep looking out while doing so. As long as you're not in the same area long enough to give the enemy team a chance to reinforce with either AA or call in the attack helicopters on you, you will generally be fine.

One more lil trick, every 3-5 sec switch to cockpit view as gunner and simply look around.
The 11th Commandment: Thou shalt look around

[Zoddom]

you guys just dont get that this is not the way its meant to be.
btw range of a tow is 3700m.
btw i didnt say i want this limit for jets too, never.
btw in vanilla its implemented, just the other way round.
btw @ scharf:
if you didnt notice, thats exactly what i want to stop with this suggestion.