Project Reality Forums

Himalde wrote:I think, if you kill civis, and can be punished for it, you should instant die. Since you are arrested by your own and courtmarshaled.

However if a civi get's killed within 5 m from any non-civi insurgent, it's his fault since he is "working with them".

Pesticide wrote:I like that idea, but i would not go as far as killing the culprit, i would merely wound him so he needs at least 2 patches to stop bleeding. Thus making him have to run to a medic or retreat to base to stop bleeding. And the effect is instantly and he will think twice about sooting unidentified targets.

These suggestions are win. Seriously. Perhaps going into Wounded state is the best combination of those 2.

I wouldn't punish a civi who was "5 m or closer" to an armed insurgent, because then it would still be okay to blast a civi mob with a tank gun.

I stated before, and I state it again - I fell "worse" when I arrest a civi, because he gets a damn long spawn time.

I would seriously give civilians a short spawn time (a shorter spawn time throughout the insurgent team would be nice) even if they get arrested. And I would severely punish anyone who killed a civi. "Don't kill when in doubt... You'll be the punished one."

Wh33lman wrote:ok, i want to hear this story.

Once in TG I think, I was driving a stryker. There were 2 strykers in the squad, and we are all camping the NE side of Karbala, than place just SE of the old US base. That big desert chunk.

Suddenly, a civilian goes in the open, in the middle of the desert... I was like "...", wondering "what the hell", really, why was he doing that. Anyways, I told my gunner "okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna run with the stryker and block him and arrest him. That okay with you?" He answered "Yeah, sure."

So I speeded up to block that civilian. As I got close to it, I saw a transport HMMVV approaching. We parked front to front (the other stryker, who overheard my plan, also joined the blockade).

I hop out, Silly_Savage, who was on the HMMVV, hops out. He shotguns the civi, and we all get safely back away from the city. That took, what, 10 seconds?


The round ended just after that. After the map load, someone on the opposing team said, probably that civilian: "That was the sweetest civi arrest I've ever seen!"

It was pretty interesting taking into account that we didn't plan it at all... It was just a damn big coincidence.

dtacs wrote:Civilians who are a pest deserve to die. The punishment is very very little and most of the time on Insurgency maps the intel is reclaimed through a buttload of kills.

And its a video game, you shouldn't feel any sort of remorse when you kill anyone.

Not about the avatar you killed, but you should surely notice that you are not playing by the intended rules and thus might hurt the general gameplay?

I wish players wouldn't need any reason to stick to the rules. I wouldn't shoot civies even if I'd not face consequences, simply because that's how the game's supposed to be played. At the end of the day, this is a realism mod. I am supposed to act in a realistic way. I am supposed to take cover when shot at, which had to be enforced by a suppression effect because I don't actually feel fear. Coming from a roleplaying background, that appears mighty silly to be quite honest. When I'm at the table, roleplaying with friends, we need no reason to simulate our characters fear other than that it makes for more interesting gameplay... Especially a realism mod should kinda make people think about that the intended gameplay might be a realistic sort, including behaviour of the avatars.

Don't confuse that with the players. The players can think "damn stupid civilian, I wish he'd die". But the soldiers on the virtual battlefield should still not act like that - something that, if we'd all realize that we play for the others as much as for ourselves, would not require to be forced upon us but would just be the logical thing to do. Because it is fun - for the others.

Give something to the game - if everyone does that, it'll return 63fold to each of us.

I like playing as civi and being a pest as civi....and I wont shoot them unless they are in roe or maybe one pistol round so they stupidly take out med pack.


I try to arrest and i love the shotguns 50,000m reach on killing civi's cause all you have to do is graze them and instant arrest.

Tho I dont FEEL anything anytime during this...it is purely a game and maybe only satisfaction is the thing I feel when I arrest civi's. Maybe annoyed that my spawn timer went up by 2 mins when I kill/fail as a civi.

tntkid22 wrote:I like playing as civi and being a pest as civi....and I wont shoot them unless they are in roe or maybe one pistol round so they stupidly take out med pack.

I thought medpacks were not accountable towards ROE?

I shoot civilians in game all the time, with enemies using them as meat shields or them being the first thing I see when a PKM is suppressing. It's not like they represent the innocent, they're combatants on the insurgent side, and they're not people anyway.

Though I do get pissed off since I get a longer spawn timer.

goguapsy wrote:I thought medpacks were not accountable towards ROE?

you are correct. Im having relapses in time, i apologize....tho in my eyes med pack = helping ins.

Spec_Operator wrote:Not about the avatar you killed, but you should surely notice that you are not playing by the intended rules and thus might hurt the general gameplay?

Many servers go by the rule 'play the game the way it was meant to be played', and whilst I agree with that 99%, there are some things that are so blatantly flawed - in this case the whole civilian system - that you can't help but exploit it in order to ensure smooth gameplay or your personal enjoyment.

Of course the civilian class itself separates the Insurgents by solidifying their role as an unconventional faction, but the exploitation of unrealistic tactics goes both ways (civis running into mortar fire, multiple civis jumping in the back of a fake Gary and then getting killed by a tank or whatever) in addition to the BLUFOR willingly killing them since they're often pests.

Since these suicide options are so openly available to civilians and in many cases encouraged by their environment (on Karbala for example if civis don't make the effort to matyr themselves, Insurgents stand little chance of winning) it shows that the whole shebang is just stupid when so many players are not making the proper efforts to ensure its used realistically.

OT

I have a huge gripe with people who go deliberately out of their way to use military tactics and formations etc. that serve no real purpose in PR other than to over-complicate things, alienate new players, and confuse those who are not familiar with said tactics. There are multiple guides (eg) which have evidence of the authors wasting player's time with these tactics.

/OT

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote:I think when you start feeling bad about killing something in a war game that it's time to put the keyboard down...

Agreed.

tntkid22 wrote:you are correct. Im having relapses in time, i apologize....tho in my eyes med pack = helping ins.

Ah yeah okay.

That wasn't a ROE violation by the civilian, though, because it is your duty to help a wounded person, be that friendly or enemy. At least that's the mantra of the game I think.

Build a brig at main and transport a soldier there for 5 minutes after the killing of a civilian.

Obviously this would not work too good with pilots so they would be exempt for game play purposes.

I know this isn't possible without access to source code, but an idea if you guys get your own engine some time.

Joeziah wrote:Build a brig at main and transport a soldier there for 5 minutes after the killing of a civilian.

Why not make the person go to wounded state?

Also, perhaps a pilot could have 1 minute before he dies, so he has time to save the choppa?

Wounding or putting the player in a brig status for shooting civies intentionally going into harm is ridiculous. Doing anything other than what currently happens is excessive imo.

Ninjam3rc wrote:Wounding or putting the player in a brig status for shooting civies intentionally going into harm is ridiculous. Doing anything other than what currently happens is excessive imo.

But the current system barely prevents a tank gunner from exploding a mob of civis (or simply shooting in houses), which shouldn't be done!

As far as I can tell, civilians getting themselves killed intentionally is big part of the insurgents efforts to keep the caches hidden. Though this only works until both caches are revealed, I think it is a good tactic considering it's just making use of BluFor's heavy-handedness. I've seen blufor teams stuck on 1 cache for ages because of all the martyrs they made.
Consequently, when I kill a civvi, I think someone on the other team is going "HAH!! That dumb ******* just set his team back 30 (or whatever) intel points!! Drinks on me tonight!".

I just hate it when I rack up 2k technical points on a tank with my buddy and then we accidentally kill a civi and it all drops to -100 and over all pnts to 0. But the worst is when you're using mortars and you kill a civi, thats sucks

I appreciate that people throw suggestions in the hope that they can contribute somewhat. But I don't think that trying to evoke a more realistic feeling by making the gameplay more unrealistic in return is the way to go...

popped a guy in the grape the other day... didnt feel a thing.

goguapsy wrote:But the current system barely prevents a tank gunner from exploding a mob of civis (or simply shooting in houses), which shouldn't be done!

Why shouldn't it? The civvie system is unrealistic as is.

What I am seeing in this thread are two diametrically opposed viewpoints going at each other head to head. On the civilian loving side, we want to instantly kill the horrible nasty barbarians who had the nerve to shoot the poor, defenseless, unarmed, flower-carrying, kitten-loving, civilian. Those horrible terrible people should be punished and punished hard because they had the nerve to shoot a civilian! Never mind the fact that they know for 100% certainty that regardless of the fact that you are carrying a civilian kit, you are 100% cooperating with and assisting the insurgent faction in killing as many Blufor soldiers and assets as possible. Why are you doing that? Because you are supposed to. That's the game. The fact of the matter is though, Blufor knows you are doing it. You are not an innocent civilian, and the 32 guys on the other team know it. You will not get them to treat you like one. Deal with it and move on.

On the other side of the fence however, you have the Blufor fanboys who have been taunted, pelted by rocks, given long spawn timers, lost points, lost intel points, and are extraordinarily frustrated with well played civilians, and are so fed up with opposing players playing the kit well, that they shoot civilians on sight. They do this for three primary reasons. Firstly, it is satisfying to many players to do so due to the torment that well played civilians can inflict on Blufor forces, secondly, everybody that plays this game knows perfectly well that the civilians are combatants on the insurgent team. Period. They are not civilians. They are combatants, end of story. Lastly, the current punishment system does little if anything to deter the action.

Bottom line, the civilian system needs work. The first two reasons, nothing can be done about within the current engine, to the best of my knowledge. The last one, can be adjusted. Yes, the punishment does need to be increased. I love insurgency mode, and I love playing as an insurgent. I am objective about this though, because the bottom line is if the game is not fair for both sides, nobody will play at all.

Blufor guys, I feel your pain. I have myself lost patience and greased an annoying civvy. Or two. Or maybe more. ops: The point of the game mode however is limited warfare. Blufor is supposed to be following limited warfare RoE, not scorched earth policy. The civilians are there to add another tactical layer to the gameplay. Insurgency is not AAS with different flags and factions. The gameplay is different by design.

Insurgents, Blufor civvy killers do not need to be killed for killing civvies. Personally, I think wounding is still too steep. There is no realism there at all. As nice as it is to think that divine intervention will take place and the heavens will part with a booming sound of rolling thunder and a brilliant flash of light and a great and mighty hand will reach out and put the head slap of doom on an asshat for shooting a civilian, it is just unrealistic, and can completely screw blufor, and cost them game changing assets, such as choppers, tanks, or APC's.

With a wounding in place, an organized group of civvies could theoretically suicide under the wheels of a tank or APC in sequence, wounding the driver several times, in effect sniping him out of his vehicle. This is hugely exploitable, and should definitely not be implemented. Spawn timers are so-so, but can be offset to the point that a good APC/tank/chopper crew can basically kill civvies at their leisure, and it's a minor speed bump.

I think that the intelligence penalty needs to be sharply increased, even to the point of relocating (think despawning and respawning in a new location, not intentional movement and placement of) a cache. Blufor works hard enough to uncover cache locations that the threat of the insurgent teams being able to "move" a known cache should drastically cut down on civilians being mowed down in the street, while at the same time not completely screwing up Blufor's chances at a successful counterinsurgency operation.

Pesticide wrote:Something came to my mind today after watching some controversial stuff surrounding rules of engagement and civilians in iraq. The way the game make us feel about killing civilians. I always feel really bad when I cause or do a teamkill, I should, its normal. But when I kill civilians, i dont 'feel' a thing, sometimes i even feel good cause i knew that civie was spotting or doing nasty stuff against my teammates. Note this is obviously all related to ingame activities

Well here's the deal. There are no civilians in PR. Only collaborators and ROE conditions. Every mother(bleep)er on the other team is there to kill you and do harm to you. That being said... I do avoid killing Collaborators when I think they are out of the ROE... mainly only because of the penalty to the team's Intelligence pool. I would sacrifice 2 minutes and a special kit if me killing a Collabortor out of ROE results in us taking a cache.

However, just recently while playing around with mortars on Karbala I was able to zero in mortars to a specific intersection near a cache that had a good amount of trafic on it. After a few really effective barrages I noticed a group of collaborators moving into the mortars. I assumed he was in ROE and was just trying to hurt our intel pool so I called them to stop. Soon I hear the 'jolt' of the epipen defeating death and call the mortars in immediately.

It took twenty seconds..... which seemed like forever as the Collaborator was just walking away from the kill zone and I thought escaping.... for the mortar to hit within a meter of him!

Best time I've had on insurgency ever! His body didn't even fly... just there and BOOM smoke.

I guess this thread should possible be about how to tackle the emotional state of how one feels about civies. Tricky to say the least but hey worth a try if some added brainstorming about civie kit would make us better humans and virtual soldiers.

Would there be any gameplay element that could tackle this emotional state so people would actually feel bad about it, and act as a greater deterrent, or on the other hand, nerf civilian kits so we will try to ignore them more cause they are not a real 'threat'. Perhaps an additional civie kit, one being like a teammate, and the other the evil civie. I Would love to save a good civie who was being used as human shield for example. Shooting the bad guy.

I was listening to an NPR "Hearing Voices" broadcast this sunday and they were Vietnam Vets recollecting that war. A huge theme of the broadcast was the soldier's dehumanizing of a whole collection of people, Vietnamese, so they could moraly and psychologically justify the killing. A really important part to me was when a guy was told to bring back a body of a guy who he had killed, it wasn't until after a while did the soldier realize that this was a man with a family. When he got to the base he was cheered on so he had to internalize this thought and keep it from showing.


In PR Arma they are talking about introducing a "Insuregency" game mode where the opfor will be attacking. Perhaps this is where Collaborators of both factions can come into play.