Armour values/strength

FLAP_BRBGOING2MOON
Posts: 166
Joined: 2011-02-20 20:56

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by FLAP_BRBGOING2MOON »

Hotrod525 wrote:No, this aint true. A LAV25 can be easily taken out by a hitting RPG-7, and Challenger have been breach by RPG-29, both are what i would call a "standart" RPG. Since anything that is actualy a Grenade propelled by a Rocket is a RPG.



And when i was talking about nightmare :
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2908679.stm]Challenger sustaining MILAN and RPG-7's at close range[/url]

rpg29's are not what im talking about, im talking about the standart insurgent RPG7, hence the link to the TRADOC
Psyko
Posts: 4466
Joined: 2008-01-03 13:34

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Psyko »

I'm banking this is being talked about in the DEV forums allready but i'll say it anyway.
The newer tank models should have more hitpoints than the old ones. there are a number of things you could do to balance the aysymmetery but its not realistic, and its a waste of time.
Tank combat is still ro-sham-bo. but i've been told tank combat is being...[ahem] adjusted. [DEV Journal pl0x? :lol: ]
Farks
Posts: 2069
Joined: 2007-01-20 00:08

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Farks »

Hotrod525 wrote:No, this aint true. A LAV25 can be easily taken out by a hitting RPG-7, and Challenger have been breach by RPG-29, both are what i would call a "standart" RPG. Since anything that is actualy a Grenade propelled by a Rocket is a RPG.



And when i was talking about nightmare :
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2908679.stm]Challenger sustaining MILAN and RPG-7's at close range[/url]
Those are excpetional cases, not the norm. Anecdotal evidence is not good enough.
Nebsif wrote:Imo APCs are fine more or less, people just use them as wannabe-paper-CQB-tanks too often.. but tanks are somewhat weak, mah best example would be tanks gettin blown up by ~8 standard RPG-7 warheads which takes atleast 2x moar irl (CBA to sauce unless ya ask). Now let me shamelessly promote my own QQ thread about tanks: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f254-v ... tanks.html
I find it to be the other way around; APC's that try to stick with the infantry in order to provide transport and fire support are usually targeted by AT very quickly, while the ones that move around a lot and use hit and run tactics will survive. That's pretty much the opposite to how these vehicles operate in real life, and even what's safe for them. Of course, it should partly be the infantrys responsability to keep the lighter armor safe. But that's translated very poorly into PR at the moment, for several reasons.
Psykogundam wrote:I'm banking this is being talked about in the DEV forums allready but i'll say it anyway.
The newer tank models should have more hitpoints than the old ones. there are a number of things you could do to balance the aysymmetery but its not realistic, and its a waste of time.
Tank combat is still ro-sham-bo. but i've been told tank combat is being...[ahem] adjusted. [DEV Journal pl0x? :lol: ]
As far as the PLA and MEC goes, they're getting new (modern) tanks. That info has been out for quite a while now. The current T-72 that the MEC has is just a placeholder.


I'd also like to point out two very important things when it comes to armor: the first one is that currently, armor rounds can't penetrate any objects or cover in-game. This means that a regular brick building pretty much provides the same cover as a ultra reinforced bunker. The second thing is that the engagement ranges are low and limited by the maps view distance. Therefore the ability to engage enemies from far beyond their own effective range (one of the biggest advantages with armor) is completely lost.
Hotrod525
Posts: 2215
Joined: 2006-12-10 13:28

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Hotrod525 »

Look at those test made by U.S. Army ( and since Abrams & Challenger 2 are made from the same armour ) :
( start at 2:00 )
Dailymotion - Machines de guerre (Tanks 1) - une vid?o Tech & Science

( start at 3:00 )
Dailymotion - Machines de guerre (Tanks 3) - une vid?o Tech & Science

Tank are strong as hell, LIGHT armored vehicle aren't. Middle class armored vehicle ( such as the Puma / CV90 / etc... ) are more armored. But dont said that it is exceptional for a tank to sustain shit load of thing.
Last edited by Hotrod525 on 2011-04-19 17:40, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Nebsif
Posts: 1512
Joined: 2009-08-22 07:57

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Nebsif »

^ Got interested and found eng version: YouTube - National Geographic War Machines(Tank)
RealKail
Posts: 93
Joined: 2010-02-15 05:25

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by RealKail »

I think it would be interesting if the devs could make it to where the view distance of infantry was more limited, but using something like a sniper rifle or heavy assets (apcs, tanks, attack choppers) would have an increased view distance.

If not, then I think something should be done about the accuracy of less advanced AT weapons like the RPG-7. On maps like Fallujah, it's not uncommon for insurgents to set up on the mosque and start "rpg sniping" the armor from distances of 300+ meters.
MrTomRobs
Posts: 258
Joined: 2010-08-30 15:39

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by MrTomRobs »

In response to OP, i've always thought of BF style gameplay (and warfare in general actually) as a bit like rock-paper-scissors, which both adds and detracts to your argument.

Tanks should have an advantage over infantry
Infantry should have an advantage over A/C
A/C should have an advantage over tanks

So by this argument, yes, there should be some proper real estate being put between a Challenger (or even an APC) and Timmy, Tommy and Terry. However, if on the rare possibility in game where you get 4 or 5 insurgents with say 2 RPGs, then yes, infantry have an advantage over the tanks in this instance. But it is far too easy to take out a tank in PR as insurgency in PR. Yes, flanking is realistic and should be encouraged and used (as it sometimes is in PR), but it should still take at least 2 RPG-7s to take out a scimitar from its arse-end. A single tandem, yeah, one shot, no worries, even from the sides potentially, but not against a challenger.

But then we get onto the argument that infantry should have an argument over aircraft... pretty obvious issues with that already. Personally, i've just started hopping in a bot's helicopter on the new single player maps and blitzing some fools with a 30mm and they generally don't stand a chance unless they've got an AA trooper and an AA tank with them...

Bit long winded and i've nearly forgotten my original argument...




Oh yeah. Maybe an reduction in the damage multipliers should be introduced for infantry to tanks?
'There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those who can't.'

Image
Gwlad! Gwlad! Pleidiol wyf i'm Gwlad!
Nixy23
Posts: 138
Joined: 2010-07-10 14:55

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Nixy23 »

After watching that video that Nebsif linked (which I found really interesting, learned a few new things!), I must say I am even more unsure about armour than I was before.

Yeah, modern day tanks should have a steady means of defending themselves from standard RPG7's (and LAT weaponry in general), but their protection runs out after a while.

Take for example the explosive reactive armour. It can stop the RPG from penetrating the tanks armour once. After that the charges are blown, and there's no stopping a second RPG that hits on the same spot from penetrating. There's of course no guarantee that the second RPG will hit the exact same spot, so it might still take 2 or 3 rounds to completely disable most (or all) of the ERA on one side of the tank. Once it's gone though, the tank is going to have some bad luck.

As it is with APC's and IFV's, they can't and shouldn't take much hits either. They aren't as heavily armoured as MBT's are, nor are they meant to be. They are faster and more agile than MBT's, which means they have to lose the armour to attain those feats. It is not fair to place say, the British Warrior, up with the Challenger 2 armour wise. Yeah, it shouldn't blow up after one hit (it shouldn't 'blow up' at all in most cases, the crew inside should be killed) but don't expect the vehicle to completely survive a second or even third hit.


I do think that *gameplay* wise it would indeed be fun to have MBT's and APC's tracked more easily, whilst having more endurance so that aforementioned rescue operations can be conducted. However, with the way the RPG's can be resupplied in game, it will be a spamfest that wouldn't be fair towards the armoured vehicle. The team also needs to have more and more people that don't randomly take a logitruck out for l33t zn!pz0rs, as you need those to conduct repairs with.

Regarding mines and obstructions; there's something with both.
Mines, as they are, are a bit weird. Not to mention that there are different variants of AT mines of course. We are talking about mines that can be easily acquired (as insurgent) and can be deployed manually. This means they cannot be very huge (large payload) due to the weight. A limited payload means a limited destructive capability. Blowing up a HMMWV or any other car when they drive over them: Yeah, without countermeasures it is completely possible. Normal AT mines (as used in PR) can easily toss a HMMWV 5 to 10m away from it's current position. (from what I've read anyway, people might want to correct me on this). But destroying armoured vehicles? I don't think so. While they do have significantly less armour on the bottom of the vehicle, there is still some. If a mine with a shaped charge is used, it can have a quite devastating effect on the crew/passengers of the APC in question, and for the tracks which would be torn off. The actual hull of the APC wouldn't really be damaged I reckon, aside of the bottom where the charge hit. So again, the blowing up when driving over a mine is overdone. The same goes for tanks. Their tracks will get damaged, but the tank wouldn't blow up when driving over (in comparison) such a small mine.

Deploy-able obstructions by insurgents would create too much of a nuisance. Look at Ramiel for example. There's already piles of burning filth and tires. Adding even more obstructions to that map would be insane. No single HMMWV will be able to get into the city. And why would you want to keep an APC out of the city anyway? As soon as they enter they are much more vulnerable to an ambush as they are in the open. When I am an APC driver I really refuse to go into an urban area unless I got plenty of support of infantry (checking for bombcars/RPG ambushes) and possibly/preferably a Kiowa scouting for even more bombcars :P On the other hand, if those obstructions were used properly.. they could be worth it. And by properly I mean not keeping people out, but keeping people in.

It's definitely worth discussion, but it's only a game, and we can only take it so far on a computer..
Image

*NwA*Nixy23

Visit us at the *NwA* website!

Image
ytman
Posts: 634
Joined: 2010-04-22 17:32

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by ytman »

Really Tanks should just be more lethal to people. I like the concept of a blast radius that goes through walls to simulate a building being blown... when a tank comes and you can't do anything about it... you run out the way insead of seeking cover behind a six inch concrete wall.

But Tanks v Infantry can't really be fixed until the player count goes up... just don't increase the HAT amount by then and really why are we so 'realistic' with certain HATs (RusFed/Germany) and so vBF2 with others (MEC, Canada, US, UK). The SRAW appearntly can't go past 600m.
Robert-The-Bruce
Posts: 150
Joined: 2009-04-13 00:34

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Robert-The-Bruce »

I'd just like to restate what farks said earlier:
Farks wrote:I'd also like to point out two very important things when it comes to armor: the first one is that currently, armor rounds can't penetrate any objects or cover in-game. This means that a regular brick building pretty much provides the same cover as a ultra reinforced bunker. The second thing is that the engagement ranges are low and limited by the maps view distance. Therefore the ability to engage enemies from far beyond their own effective range (one of the biggest advantages with armor) is completely lost.

1. Most buildings hold off everything. Irl "even" a .50cal can penetrate a lot of walls, and lets not even talk about 120mm HE shells blasting walls. I'm excited about what the Dev's are going to do about this(as it was acknowledged as a problem in some previous thread or other)

2. View distance makes a giant difference on any map. You won't hit anyone from >300m away with an RPG, but an APCs coax or 30mm will still be very usable at double that range and even beyond.

I am resisting the urge to make this a giant wall of text. Well, my 2 cents anyway.
Mikemonster
Posts: 1384
Joined: 2011-03-21 17:43

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Mikemonster »

Nixy, the Warrior was designed to be agile enough to keep up with the Challenger, I presume because of the need to carry troops/payload APC's have to sacrifice armour. Just thought you'd be interested.

I'm not meaning to start an 'IRL' discussion thing, but I did a search and couldn't find much about Warrior vs RPG .. I read Johnson Beharry's biography/account (Warrior driver in the 2003 invasion), and I swear that it was a fairly common occurence to get hit with an RPG. When his Warrior was 'rendered unuseable' (immobilised and with stunned crew members) I think it was hit 7 or 8 times. There was also a crew member of a Warrior who somehow survived an RPG exploding on the armour next to his hatch when his hatch was open.

Gameplay > Realism though, and tangeable realism at that (my general view based on spurious evidence). But worth discussing perhaps.
Tarranauha200
Posts: 1166
Joined: 2010-08-28 20:57

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Tarranauha200 »

Phantom2 wrote:But for gameplay reasons it should stay the same, it is difficult to kill a tank as is,

No its not?
Tank can be killed whit:
1 bombcar(lucky hit)
1 gary
1 Tow missile
1 HAT(If hit in good spot)
1 Hellfire
Hotrod525
Posts: 2215
Joined: 2006-12-10 13:28

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Hotrod525 »

Tarranauha200 wrote:No its not?
Tank can be killed whit:
1 bombcar(lucky hit)
1 gary
1 Tow missile
1 HAT(If hit in good spot)
1 Hellfire
Except bomb car you all listed ANTI-TANK weapon, surprise the ANTI-TANK are killing Tank ? :-?
Image
Nixy23
Posts: 138
Joined: 2010-07-10 14:55

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Nixy23 »

TOW 2B vs a T72. I didn't know that was possible, but damn.

Can anyone confirm this is how the 2B actually functions? It looks like the T72 explodes from the inside out, but that might just be the shaped charge detonating the slugs that are stored in the tank..
Image

*NwA*Nixy23

Visit us at the *NwA* website!

Image
Mikemonster
Posts: 1384
Joined: 2011-03-21 17:43

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Mikemonster »

It fires a projectile from underneath itself, meaning basically a mini-TOW strikes the roof of the tank at a 90 degree angle where the armour is very thin (relatively).

I'm presuming the explosion is the projectile penetrating and then exploding inside, however something is a bit fishy to me about the video - There would be no fluids or ammunition inside the target tank i'm presuming, and as well as that I can't see the tiny 'secondary' projectile having enough force to clean blow off the turret. Especially not with all those flames involved.

Looks to me like a viral advert for weaponry, but i'm only a layman.. :)
Hotrod525
Posts: 2215
Joined: 2006-12-10 13:28

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Hotrod525 »

Mikemonster wrote:It fires a projectile from underneath itself, meaning basically a mini-TOW strikes the roof of the tank at a 90 degree angle where the armour is very thin (relatively).

I'm presuming the explosion is the projectile penetrating and then exploding inside, however something is a bit fishy to me about the video - There would be no fluids or ammunition inside the target tank i'm presuming, and as well as that I can't see the tiny 'secondary' projectile having enough force to clean blow off the turret. Especially not with all those flames involved.

Looks to me like a viral advert for weaponry, but i'm only a layman.. :)
They test it on a COMBAT LOADED vehicle. Wich mean : Fuel, Ammo and ERA.
Image
Mikemonster
Posts: 1384
Joined: 2011-03-21 17:43

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Mikemonster »

Ah, yeah it does say 'Tactical Loaded' .. Which I presume for all practical purposes means a round in the autoloader?

Who are 'they'?
Hotrod525
Posts: 2215
Joined: 2006-12-10 13:28

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Hotrod525 »

Mikemonster wrote:Ah, yeah it does say 'Tactical Loaded' .. Which I presume for all practical purposes means a round in the autoloader?

Who are 'they'?
They is those who actually conduct those testing, if you look at the testing of the FGM-148 against a combat loaded T-72 you see the total obliteration of the MBT, there is quite alot of video showing "more realistic footage"...





This is what happen to "unloaded" tank (you can assume there is penetration since you see smoke getting out of the open hatch):
Image
Mikemonster
Posts: 1384
Joined: 2011-03-21 17:43

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Mikemonster »

Thanks for the video Hotrod, I belived you were questioning my assumption that the tank in the original vid was full of something to make the TOW hit look more impressive (to prospective customers).

I believe i'm right, as they did the same thing in that Javelin video you just showed (rigged it slightly to make a bigger 'BOOM' when the missile hits - Looks good to people interested in purchasing the goods.

As evidenced by the other two videos, by the looks of it usually the primary explosion (warhead hitting the tank) and secondary explosions (ammunition cooking off) are far less spectacular, which backs up my point.

I wasn't questioning the lethality of the TOW 2B, just saying the impressive fireball was slightly .. impressive..
Hotrod525
Posts: 2215
Joined: 2006-12-10 13:28

Re: Armour values/strength

Post by Hotrod525 »

Mikemonster wrote:Thanks for the video Hotrod, I belived you were questioning my assumption that the tank in the original vid was full of something to make the TOW hit look more impressive (to prospective customers).

I believe i'm right, as they did the same thing in that Javelin video you just showed (rigged it slightly to make a bigger 'BOOM' when the missile hits - Looks good to people interested in purchasing the goods.

As evidenced by the other two videos, by the looks of it usually the primary explosion (warhead hitting the tank) and secondary explosions (ammunition cooking off) are far less spectacular, which backs up my point.

I wasn't questioning the lethality of the TOW 2B, just saying the impressive fireball was slightly .. impressive..
No, you see a massive fireball cause Ammo and Fuel ignite from the 1st and 2nd charge explosion on the FGM-148, nothing else. On the second video the charge is not powerfull enought to blown everything one shot. This is why you see the ammo been cooked off by each other.

Honestly i fear alot more been cooked by ammo, than a single obliteration. Imagine you're self been cook like a damn chicken in the oven. It might not look as awesome, but horror is name of the game.
Image
Post Reply

Return to “Vehicles”