Commander, Squadleader Kit requests

[Wakain]

I like the idea, but this really requires dedicated SL and CO's, if the team doesn't has a CO the team will lack vehicles support, you'll have people going for CO, taking the kits for themselves and some chaps and resign again.

also getting a squad sufficiently equiped with special kits will be a long and tiring operation (SL requests kit, drops kit, SM presses G and accidently takes the officerkit, drops kit, presses G etc.)

[Arc_Shielder]

I reject the CO idea but I think the SL one is nice as long he doesn't have to be physically present around the crate. The page up-page down option sounds good, but is it possible?

[Agemman]

I reject the CO idea but I think the SL one is nice as long he doesn't have to be physically present around the crate. The page up-page down option sounds good, but is it possible?

This.

If I have to lug back to a freaking crate to get one of my guys a kit I will be seriously pissed. As for the CO idea, it is just plain stupid in my opinion. It would bog down the entire team to rely on the CO for assets. What if he is afk? Or just simply an asshat? Personally when I am CO I drive around in my logi truck and build FOBs around the battlefield. What if I am halfway across the map building a FOB and I suddenly need to be in main requesting a kit for our CAS?

SL if you can incorporate it so that you can just approve it. Otherwise scrap it.

[ShockUnitBlack]

I think this sounds good on paper but in actual application would put too much strain on SLs and the Commander to be worth its while. Plus, if the SL isn't near a crate, this won't work. Maybe for HATs, Snipers, and Combat Engineers, though.

[Wakain]

if the SL doesn't need to be near something (crate, apc or FOB for example) he could just take a special kit whenever he feels like it, "hmm, sounds like a tank, let's request a HAT fer one o' my fellas"

the plan will probably break in the pub, but for tournaments with dedicated players and strict admin control it might work out brilliantly

[Tim270]

Commander, Squadleader Kit requests

Squadleaders (My suggestion)
Squadleaders should be able to request Marksman, Grenadier, Sniper, HAT, Rifleman AP, Rifleman AT etc.

Since they are the SLs, they should be able to delegate who gets to use what ingame.

Any SM, can spawn in or request the medic, AR, Rifleman and Specialist kit as before

This is assuming that all SL's are a bastion of tactical knowledge that are going to do this for their squad. Why should I not just be able to request any of these kits expect sniper? Why are they so bad for my squad?

What if my SL dies, all my squad is still alive and we need to request a LAT to take out a APC that killed him? In a server that does not have mumble and your SL is dead so cannot put a map marker down. ( getting on mumble is not a solution, it is a minority of servers that use it)

This sounds to me more like SLs being anal about people who want to use a kit. Yes, people who want to use a kit. Why is it such a crime to join a squad and take a kit? Who says the SL is superior in every way that he/she should decide. This is not a real military, it is a computer game that anyone who wants a officers position on the team only has to click a button.

Might be ok for the few servers that have everyone sticking real tight on mumble etc, but for everywhere else it is a ball-buster and a gameplay breaker.

Commanders (My suggestion)
Commanders should be the only players able to request the Pilot and Crewman kit, to force a team to use that position. COs can not request any other kits. (Cept officer)

Kit request

Anyone who will play PR, will have to ask a SL to assign him a kit for him to use. Rather then the otherway around. In the same way, if an SL wishes to drive veichles or fly planes, he has to ask the CO for a kit.

Anyone not in a squad, is not allowed to use a special kit. (EXCEPT MEDIC AR SPECIALIST RIFLEMAN)

Asset-wise it does make a little more sense I will give you that but I still disagree. I still do not accept the assumption that because any random player on the team pressed apply for commander he should be able to cripple his team that much. You are again assuming the CO is someone who has played **** loads of rounds, knows the ins and outs of the asset layouts etc etc.

I have had times where on TG (exception to many of the brilliant rounds) where the CO grounded all choppers on Mutrah with the US having 100 tickets while MEC were capping docks. I just dont accept that somehow the CO will have better discretion that someone who plays with said asset a lot in letting them use it or not.

Abuse: CO that has a clan with them, can assign kits only to their "clans" squad.
SLs doesnt have to be "SL", they just make a squad and then wait till it fills, then takes the Snipzor kit and leaves.

Solution to abuse: Both of the above already happens, and Admins that doesnt have to be looking for lonewolfing veichles can ensure that the CO isnt doing something wrong. And people who play regularly in a server, knows what SLs to trust. .

What what if the said server the clan players are the admins? :\

I can see this just being abused to hell on so many servers. Random player goes SL, requests himself pilot squad, jumps in jet, resigns as SL, and then take off. This also negates the 'who made the squad first gets it' rule.
Hell I use the CO right now mostly so I can 1 man mortar squads. Firing both tubes myself, having to 'abuse' the Co position to help my team.

I dont know about you. But i constantly have people in my squads taking HAT kits, sniperkits and Marksman kits. Without myn consent. And without me knowing, and so i usually have people yelling at me in SL Chat for wasting kits. or similar.

If anyone asks me, can i please have a marksman kit. I say no. But that is only my word, and if someone is annoying rudd, cant you just kick him from the squad.

Because it is not intuitive in any way! How is a player who is going to join your squad join it with the knowledge that you want to control what kit he has? as that is a tiny minority of SLs. You said yourself you say no to anyone taking a marksman? what if I know I can rack up a ton of kills with it while staying with my squad? Why does this bother you so much?

I know this is the way you like to run your squad and that is fine, kick all the people who do not take kits you want them to have. However imposing this on all other Sls who most likely dont care and just want to play the game to go and have some fun, without crying because someone in their squad took a marksman. (crime of the century)

[killonsight95]

I love the L idea, however i think we can entrust the crewman and pilot kits to the SL's as a lot of the time there is no CO.

I really love this, it makes it neccesarry to prepare for combat before actually getting attacked or attacking because the SM's won't be able to just request kits insted they take the kits and don't just randomly grab a sniper kit in the middle of combat etc. sure you can kick them but then that's a valuable asset lost to the team.
I'd also like to see that you can't take H-AT or sniper kits from anywhere but main

[Jantje|NL^]

The way it is is good enough for me, those players who don't obey my orders when I'm squad leader will get kicked from the squad, which doesnt happen that often as at the start of a round I perform a mic check, players with a microphone most of the time want to play in a team that works together.
Those teamplayers allways are willing to take some of the kits I need in my team, like a medic, AR and rifleman specialist,.. but you don't allways need those, you can adopt other tactics to be even more succesfull, like when having a marksman or sniper on the overwatch to support your squad. People with microphones most of the time will discuss things, and if they fail to be that awesome sniperguy you hoped they would be, because they said they were.. well, it's just a game and we all fail sometimes.

Also, if you're in a good server and there really is vehicle abuse there probably will be a admin around to kick or ban those players

I think you shouldn't give players so much authority over other players as it would make the game quite boring for many, and I don't think we are waiting for people to seat those functions if they are not capable to live them out correctly. Which will be a natural response if you do that.

bla bla bla, I think the system good as it is. Being said as a squad leader who doesnt get his mind blowed because some player takes 'advantage' over you to take a sniper kit.

[Nixy23]

I too am afraid that there will be 9 random squads up at the start of a round, by people that want to be a squad leader to grab that sniper rifle. Another issue that Tim270 brought up: What if the squad leader dies and is unable to request a LAT/HAT/AA kit for that pesky armor/chopper that is pinning down the squad?

The latter might be resolved when/if the page up/down 'vote' system is working, however I am not sure if this is at all possible.

In general though, I do not think this would solve anything. People will always find a way to 'abuse' the system to get the kit they want. Be it by taking up a squad leaders position to have a sniper, or to be commander to issue your friends all the crewman kits to drive the APCs with.

If a squad member wants a kit, they often ask. And frankly, I do the same. If a squad member doesn't listen, or doesn't want to be 'just a rifleman' (where I fail to see any significant point/argument. A rifleman is a proper kit, and bringing along ammo saved me in a lot of situations) he can piss off.

[Agemman]

How about people just get the "drop this kit or die"-thing when they have high-profile kits without being in a squad? Would at least encourage those kits to stay in squads instead of requesting and going lonewolf.

[Mouthpiece]

I read this post the other day - PR:BF2 General Discussion - Project Reality Forums
and thought to myself - an awesome suggestion, exept few things. I also thought that Wicca won't send it to Suggestions, so I did it myself, but seems like he was faster.

So here's my suggestion (that I sent to Suggestion forums). There are some technical differences (that I like):

"Everyone who has played this game for a while understands the way this game is meant to be played - with people communicating with each other. Inter squad comms or between the squads, it doesn't matter. There must be a certain flow of information between people in order to do things right.

There are a lot of means how this necessity to communicate is forced (because as we know there are a lot of people not willing to communicate). For example, Squad leader (SL) can kick a mute, non-responding squad member. In my humble opinion - the more means, the better.

What I'm about to suggest is a mean that could possibly eradicate the ancient problem when squad members (SM) request certain limited kits that they like but that are tactically useless (e.g., SM taking a sniper when SL's intention is to move through the city; CQC expected) in the current or future situation. And therefore preventing other teammates from taking this limited kit when it's really needed. There have been a lot of times when you can't request a HAT or a LAT in order to deal with a sudden armor threat just because some guy just loves the LAT and takes it with him everywhere he goes. I understand that this game isn't exactly supposed to be played like "you see a tank, quickly pick up a HAT, kill it and drop the kit, no sweat", but the situation sometimes is dire and without an alternative way of defeating the threat (CAS offline, Armor sq is on the other side of the map, etc.).

THE SUGGESTION: Change the kit request system so that only SLs have the ability to give out kits. Make it so that kits can't be requested without the approval of squad leader. How I see this working is: person joins a squad (let it be an inf squad for this demo), asks his SL what kit he should take, SL tells him to take a LAT because he has a plan (that logically SM's yet don't know off) to ambush enemy APC's. The squad member goes to crates, orders the kit. When he has requested the kit, SL gets a notification that one of his SM is trying to request a kit, and he has two options - "Page Up" for "Affirmative" or "Page Down" for "Negative". When he presses "Page Up", SM's kit appears below his feet (if he hasn't moved away from crates, that is; if he has, the procedure must be done again). But if he would press "Page Down", the kit wouldn't appear below SM's feet.

This feature would not only give SL more privileges and means of getting his squad together for good, but also encourage communication between SM's and SL. I can't stress this enough: how vital this communication is.
Now microphone-less people can join my APC sq when I'm in the heat of the battle (w/o me noticing them; it sometimes happens), take one of APC and just waste it quickly because they don't communicate with each other (driver/gunner comms are more vital than anything else) and because they can take any kit they like without SL's permission. But with the suggested system - it wouldn't be possible.

Also it would be more realistic than it is now. In simple terms: IRL "kits" can't be taken without permission from a hierarchically higher standing person and every "kit" is adapted to the plan and the potential situation the fighters will be facing. I would like the same organised way in-game. It would definitely end the farce that sometimes happens. Example: before 0.95 some BLUFOR players had a tendency to venture in insurgent territory with a HAT and without any backup (rember, in 0.9 limited kits could be used by opposing factions).

But with great power (the power to hand out kits) comes great responsibilities. As a potential minus I see a SL that's really not an SL but just a guy who created to squad in order to not get kicked, but he's only intention is to lonewolf like an impotent. My suggested system would benefit from another suggestion I can remember - the possibility for SM's to "overthrow" the SL if he isn't doing his job (a simple voting system would do)."

That's all. Sorry for the long read.

EDIT:

Why I dislike the commander authority idea? Because in pubs you don't see commanders, period. And in tournaments everything is governed by rules anyway, so there are no random sniper grabbers.

[killonsight95]

people don't seem to understand that the idea of kits isn't the equipment used, it's the training the person has, IRL you arn't trained as a sniper and AT gunner? that's why these kits are made the way they are, IRL you don't just pick up a rocket from a crate and know how to fire it, you need training. This is why i like this idea, the less H-AT and sniper spamming the better IMO, tanks etc. need to be feared.

[Wicca]

Well why dont people join squads and leave now? Just to get a kit? Oh wait...

That hardly ever happens. Jeez you guys are overreacting. Its not like it will turn into complete chaos. Its more like, squadleaders make squads. And then to make sure noone steals kit, it gives players an incentive to A) Communicate and B) Follow orders.

Its just the squadleader giving them kit, its a psychological set. Instead of me telling people what to do, i give them roles. Physically.

People join squads for kits all the time, depends on the server what will happen with them. And as far as i know, there arent that many populated servers in PR that this happens to. Where there is utter chaos.

[Wicca]

Mouthpiece thats a resuggestion.

[badmojo420]

So... rather than taking his sniper kit, leaving the squad, and running away to do his thing. Kit whores will now loiter around the crates at a FOB, wait for another SL to request a kit for his squad member and promptly steal that kit and walk away.

How would that problem be handled?

Also, what would the requesting restrictions be? If they weren't changed the kit distribution process would be long and painful since the SL would have to wait between every limited kit he spawned.

But, if we removed the restriction, it could potentially mean that a noob SL could spawn X number of kits and leave them laying on the ground, preventing our team from using whatever kits he wasted.


I feel like the open ended system in PR would be replaced by a system that supports only 1 type of squad organization. And even though that type of squad is realistic and "proper", a standard infantry squad isn't all that makes up PR. There are too many circumstances where a kit is needed but the SL isn't present, that making this change (which is simply to make things easier on dictator SL's) not worth it in my opinion.

[Mouthpiece]

Mouthpiece thats a resuggestion.

Didn't see it in the suggestion list, nor in first two pages of suggestions.

[Wicca]

So... rather than taking his sniper kit, leaving the squad, and running away to do his thing. Kit whores will now loiter around the crates at a FOB, wait for another SL to request a kit for his squad member and promptly steal that kit and walk away.

Eh? You a troll mate?

You seriously consider people will wait for that long? Just for a kit. Its just... Stop it.

Also, what would the requesting restrictions be? If they weren't changed the kit distribution process would be long and painful since the SL would have to wait between every limited kit he spawned.

Obviously that would be fixed.

But, if we removed the restriction, it could potentially mean that a noob SL could spawn X number of kits and leave them laying on the ground, preventing our team from using whatever kits he wasted.

AFAIK, most kits are squad specific. Then some are Team Specific. The list i dont have in the back of my head. But if any member now, miss selects a kit. The team suffers anyway. Now there is just less people to make mistakes. As oppoosed to everyone.

I feel like the open ended system in PR would be replaced by a system that supports only 1 type of squad organization. And even though that type of squad is realistic and "proper", a standard infantry squad isn't all that makes up PR. There are too many circumstances where a kit is needed but the SL isn't present, that making this change (which is simply to make things easier on dictator SL's) not worth it in my opinion.

Well if your squadleaders hasnt prepared for something, he deserves to lose people. Planning preperation and delegation is part of squadleading, and if you dont do it right, you will lose lifes.

Its usually the most veteran players who take up the SL role volountary, and its those people who knows how to use the kits. Why not it being them to delegate the kits aswell?

[badmojo420]

People sit at crates waiting for their favorite kit to be put back into the pool all the time. It's not hard to believe they would wait and steal a kit. I was thinking about the start of rounds or when the team only has 1 FOB, and there are multiple squads standing around the crates.

Or, how about a smurf following around your squads sniper and stealing his kit when he is wounded? That **** already happens.

My point is, if you take away a junkies ability to get his fix, he'll go out of his way to get it. Your suggestion makes it more difficult for individuals to get their hands on special kits, but still not impossible. It's like how the warm-up time on gunners seats alone wasn't enough to stop people from 1 manning vehicles, they just adapt their tactics. It wasn't until they added the need for a driver to be present that we finally saw the end to that. It essentially had to become impossible before people gave it up.


And the squad leader can be prepared out the ***. But, there are still many situations in which an individual squad member might need to get a kit on his own.

For example, you died fighting for docks in Muttrah, SL tells you to spawn on the FOB in north city and walk back to the rest of the squad. Upon spawning in you see the Cobra hovering above the FOB firing on your guys who are attacking docks. Are you saying it's acceptable that this guy can't pick up an AA kit from the pallets of weapons and ammo sitting right in front of him?


May I take a wild guess and say that you are usually a squad leader Wicca?

Edit: my point about requesting kits and leaving them on the ground to be wasted was to do with the ability for SL's to request multiple kits with no time restraint. Since that is the type of system they would need to use to make your suggestion work.

So, 1 foolish squad leader could cause as much damage as 8 or so players. And he could do it as fast as it takes to click 8 times. It wouldn't happen often, but I could see a spiteful player doing it before leaving a game.

[Mouthpiece]

For example, you died fighting for docks in Muttrah, SL tells you to spawn on the FOB in north city and walk back to the rest of the squad. Upon spawning in you see the Cobra hovering above the FOB firing on your guys who are attacking docks. Are you saying it's acceptable that this guy can't pick up an AA kit from the pallets of weapons and ammo sitting right in front of him?


May I take a wild guess and say that you are usually a squad leader Wicca?

I guess he is. Anyway, what's wrong with my suggestion (really didn't find the "original" suggestion)? The SL's ability to say "yes" or "no" if a guy in his squad is trying to request a kit from crates? It's a solid and fast way. The guy would just tell his SL: "Cobra, North West, Mountains, Can I request an AA?". He's like: "Totally." Guy requests the AA kit from the crates near by, SL gets a notification, approves (or declines) it, and voila (!) - Cobra (if not beginners) goes away, guy get's the limited kit needed in the correct sittuation, SL has control over kits and everyone is happy!

[Wicca]

People sit at crates waiting for their favorite kit to be put back into the pool all the time. It's not hard to believe they would wait and steal a kit. I was thinking about the start of rounds or when the team only has 1 FOB, and there are multiple squads standing around the crates.

Ive never seen that

Or, how about a smurf following around your squads sniper and stealing his kit when he is wounded? That **** already happens.

Ive seen the occasional mumbler helping me out. But that wasnt a guy who stole kits.

My point is, if you take away a junkies ability to get his fix, he'll go out of his way to get it. Your suggestion makes it more difficult for individuals to get their hands on special kits, but still not impossible. It's like how the warm-up time on gunners seats alone wasn't enough to stop people from 1 manning vehicles, they just adapt their tactics. It wasn't until they added the need for a driver to be present that we finally saw the end to that. It essentially had to become impossible before people gave it up.

Yes, its harder. But i still have never seen anyone actually steal a kit. Ive seen people rant about steals, but it usually ends up being someone envying the other guy. Quite stupid imo.

And the squad leader can be prepared out the ***. But, there are still many situations in which an individual squad member might need to get a kit on his own.

The ability to request medic, AR and rifleman for anyone should still exists imo. But AA and AT is something that should be prepared by the SL.

For example, you died fighting for docks in Muttrah, SL tells you to spawn on the FOB in north city and walk back to the rest of the squad. Upon spawning in you see the Cobra hovering above the FOB firing on your guys who are attacking docks. Are you saying it's acceptable that this guy can't pick up an AA kit from the pallets of weapons and ammo sitting right in front of him?

Is it realistic? Does it make a good game? Especially for the US? They keep getting pushed to sea?

Its really situational. The SL has a objective in mind, and he prepares himself by A) Will i meet tanks? B) Will i meet tanks?

If he cant plan, then he cant win. Its consequense and its learning.

May I take a wild guess and say that you are usually a squad leader Wicca?

SL or CO.