Project Reality Forums

We have a mechanism for tracking unique player IDs that have played PR (the information is publicly available). This year there have been closer to the figure I posted than the one you posted. Again, you are taking a guess and don't have any data behind your guess.

We *are* planning to lose money - we're working for free for god sake. We're not looking for millions of dollars of seed money. The issue is do we do this outright for free? Or do we create some potential for revenue to make it easier to justify to ourselves and our families. And *maybe* on the off chance... create something that allows for a decent revenue stream. If some of the ideas we have pan out technically, then commercially.. it might actually be a decent income for some folks on the team.

Maybe I have just decided that I don't like your posts, but my impression of your input is that it's often negative and uninformed.

Yes, your opinion on TGEA was valid.

egg

Guys you're forgetting an important issue in the money debate ... merchandising.

Who wouldn't want to buy a Gold edition of PR2 with a little Eggman keychain thingy !!! ^^


But more seriously lets not get bogged down too much in the discussion about the price tag or method because frankly at this moment the biggest hurdle is making the actual game. If 10 or 10.000 people buy it is a bit secondary right now.

Heck I'd be just glad to be able to say I was part of the community which saw the rebirth of :
passion + game design = epic games

And maybe just maybe a new way of making money out of it.

Why make it like an MMO, I would pay 50$ for the full release and no other stuff included. Monthly fees are slayer, just like WoW...

Oh and now FASTROPES!!!

And when will we get to know how much power your comp must have, is it like crysis 2 or bf1942...?

People value things more when they pay for them ... irrespective of whether they are worth it or not. Its called perceived value.

[R-CON]Space wrote:Im happy to work for PR for free, just as many other present and past members of the team have done so.

The philosophy that works for a MOD does not work for an independent game. The investment of time is on an exponential order to start with. There is also an investment in tools and engine.

Many have tried, and many have failed. I know a successful development company that has done it (mod --> indie game on steam), and they said it is virtually impossible ... the only reason they made it was the fact they were a business in the first place (when they made their mod).

However if you for some reason think you know more than people with over 10 years of experience in the games industry and are who now partnered with ubisoft ... go right ahead and flap your lips.

I have complete faith in you guys and if you ever need it I will set up a trust fund to make sure this goes ahead! Obviously I made most of my comments about PR2 on the bigD forums, but I just wanted to say to the DEV's and anyone doubting them that they (and their work) have given me more gaming time and enjoyment than ANY other game in my life collectively - which is quite a few. I adore PR and would do anything to help it progress towards independence from a free mod to a slightly profitable venture. You guys have something unbelievable under your belt - I am behind you 100% and although I can't really uh...help at the moment, hopefully next year when I'll be starting my degree in games development this would be a fantastic way to not only gain experience but be part of something very, very special.

Never forget you have a very loyal fanbase that loves your work and appreciates it more than you could know.
Obviously PR1 will continue til it reaches 1.0 status. By then and beyond that you will have collected a plethora of your own work that can go towards the future engine (with a little retro-fitting, taking advantage of higher poly counts etc...). Not to mention you'll always have a very strong community as long as you keep the teamwork mechanics in place.

ChiefRyza wrote:I have complete faith in you guys and if you ever need it I will set up a trust fund to make sure this goes ahead! Obviously I made most of my comments about PR2 on the bigD forums, but I just wanted to say to the DEV's and anyone doubting them that they (and their work) have given me more gaming time and enjoyment than ANY other game in my life collectively - which is quite a few. I adore PR and would do anything to help it progress towards independence from a free mod to a slightly profitable venture. You guys have something unbelievable under your belt - I am behind you 100% and although I can't really uh...help at the moment, hopefully next year when I'll be starting my degree in games development this would be a fantastic way to not only gain experience but be part of something very, very special.

Never forget you have a very loyal fanbase that loves your work and appreciates it more than you could know.
Obviously PR1 will continue til it reaches 1.0 status. By then and beyond that you will have collected a plethora of your own work that can go towards the future engine (with a little retro-fitting, taking advantage of higher poly counts etc...). Not to mention you'll always have a very strong community as long as you keep the teamwork mechanics in place.

Agreed times so many times lol.

GO GO PR TEAM!

[R-MOD]Saobh wrote:
Heck I'd be just glad to be able to say I was part of the community which saw the rebirth of :
passion + game design = epic games

And maybe just maybe a new way of making money out of it.

Thats what I wanted to say a few posts back! Totaly agree with you.

[R-DEV]Twisted Helix wrote: Many have tried, and many have failed. I know a successful development company that has done it (mod --> indie game on steam), and they said it is virtually impossible ... the only reason they made it was the fact they were a business in the first place (when they made their mod).

However if you for some reason think you know more than people with over 10 years of experience in the games industry and are who now partnered with ubisoft ... go right ahead and flap your lips.

I agree with the "people with over 10 years of experience in the games industry" - its virtually impossible. Its you guys that seem to be disagreeing with them. One thing that I do know alot about, is business and start ups. Heres some pro tips that I think are relevant - though no doubt my advice will be rubbished and unwelcome. (I cut and pasted to save me some time) :

Mistake 1: Failing to spend enough time researching the business idea to see if it's viable. "This is really the most important mistake of all. They say 9 [out] of 10 entrepreneurs fail because they're undercapitalized or have the wrong people. I say 9 [out] of 10 people fail because their original concept is not viable. They want to be in business so much that they often don't do the work they need to do ahead of time, so everything they do is doomed. They can be very talented, do everything else right, and fail because they have ideas that are flawed."

Mistake 2: Miscalculating market size, timing, ease of entry and potential market share. "Most new entrepreneurs get very excited over an idea and don't look for the truth about how many people will want to buy it. They put together financial projections as part of a presentation to pump up their investors. They say, 'The market size is 50 million people that could use this product, and if I could only sell to 2 percent of them, I'd be selling a million pieces.' But 2 percent of a market is a lot. Most products sell way less than 1 percent."

Mistake 9: Hiring for convenience rather than skill requirements. "In my first business or two, I hired relatives. It was easy to do, but in many cases, they were the wrong people [for the job]. And it's hard to fire people, especially if they're relatives or friends. More time needs to be spent handpicking people based on skill requirements. You really need super-skilled people who can wear more than one hat. It just bogs you down when you hire people who can't do the job."

Mistake 10: Neglecting to manage the entire company as a whole. "You see this happen all the time. They'll spend half their time doing something that represents 5 percent of their business. You have to have a view of your whole company. But too often, the person running it loses that view. They get involved in a part, and they don't manage the whole. Whether I do this product or that product, whether I hire somebody, how they [will] fit long term and short term in the big picture. Constantly try to see your big picture."

Mistake 13: Seeking confirmation of your actions rather than seeking the truth. "This often happens: You want to do something, so you talk about it with people who work for you. You talk to [your] family and friends. But you're only looking for confirmation; you're not looking for the truth. You're looking for somebody to tell you you're right. But the truth always comes out. We give much more value to the truth than to people saying what we're doing is great."

[R-DEV]eggman wrote:
It's easy to stand on the sidelines and predict failure. Boring too.

egg

No its not easy. When I post these things I know it wont make me any friends, and it certainly doesn't benefit me in anyway. I firmly believe that the future of PR, is being a mod of a new game. OFP2 is due to announce player numbers very soon, and they recently said that the mission editor being released with the PC version, is what they used to make the game (Im not saying that OFP2 is suitable - Im just saying theres potential).
If a new mod group were to make a PR mod copy on any suitable next gen game with a large playerbase - for free - where would that leave PR2?

Theres not much more to add, so Ill stop my "negative posting " in this thread now

Gonna chip in my 2 cents here. Space I dont think you've been rude in this thread, I think Egg has read your words in the wrong way (easily done on the interwebz) I think you raise some interesting points and yes it won't be easy, hell it may not even happen. But I have to disagree with the mod thing. Forever having to rely on other people to supply the tools and techology to make a game completely sucks. So many of the ideas on these forums are excellent but can never be implemented because we are stuck with what we've got, with no communication with the makers of the engine. If we had a good relationship with the people that made the engine, or we could alter some source code, the situation would be different, but that is very unlikely to happen whoever we work with, least of all OFP2. Really, we've looked at all the scenarios and the mod one is not really a step forward in any way, except an opportunity for fancier graphics. We'd still be stuck with the situation we have now and sooner or later run into the same problem of, oh, we cant do that, the engine wont lets us without modifying the source code.

Second, and a big second, is that our programmers and artists are working on a 'proper' development project. The shaders arent written for us, the art pipeline isnt done for us, the tools need to be made, the whole world needs to be made. Again this is all done for you with a mod, and it is quite good for everyone involved to actually get used to the thinking and problem solving that comes with having a completely blank canvas. I personally am much more excited by this than modding OFP2 or Arma2 for instance (although as a lowly artist I am waiting for all the real hard work to be done for me, which I am also very pleased about!)

So, no, I dont think we should carry on with the easy option of using other companies tools to help them sell their game with no recognition and no respect. I think PR has done that for long enough for bf2, and I would rather struggle around with a difficult venture than mod another game for a company that has no interest in your work at all.

If Codemasters phoned us up and said, we want you to make our multiplayer awesome, we'll give you the keys to the office and you guys do what you like, I'd do it for free in a heartbeat, but how likely is that?

I know, I cant imagine why BIS dont get us to do their multiplayer either, because their level of teamwork sucks, but for some unfathomable reason, they dont!!

I have utmost respect for the DEV's to have the guts to give this a go. In the long run, even if the DEV's move to another game's engine - that is what it is always going to be. An addon. Something that although of the highest quality is never actually its own.

If the DEV's actually move to the C4 engine, they have the chance to actually move forward and not forever be stuck doing the stuff they love doing that only a minority will move onto. Why the hell would people move from a realistic warfare game (OPF2) to a....realistic warfare mod? Isn't that a little flawed? And to be honest OPF2 is obviously going for the small player numbers + huge bot numbers. I can't quote the source right now but I highly doubt it will be a 64 player game, rather 32 players + up to 256 bots.

An indie venture means that there is really no limitations brought on by becoming a mod for another game. No matter what you do as a mod, you are always at the mercy of the parent game. Even if you exceed it in quality, you rely on it. You can't upgrade nor update. Not only will securing a new engine with complete freedom of use be available, but so will the possibility of always being able to upgrade this engine to suit the needs of the future - something you simply cannot do with a retail 'buy and secure' game.

It may be a crazy idea - I agree with you there space, even mindbogglingly risky. The people who will stand by the DEV's are there, and that is something that brings the possibility of this all coming together into play. As I said before, if the DEV's need financial support to go ahead with this, there will always be people to help out, even assist in funding. That 4000 players is still growing, everyday, and it will for quite some time. The one thing about PR though is that we're not just players, we are a community. Never have I seen a game (or mod) that attracts and keeps people who literally feed off each other. It's almost like this game creates a new mindset of thinking.

edit: Drav beat with with alot of things there (took me a while to write this up ), but he makes very good points throughout. Think of how much EA/DICE have profited off having their game promoted alongside Mod of the year and countless other awards when they sit back and do nothing but reap the rewards, occasionally throwing out a "Congratulations Project Reality for keeping the cash flowing".

[R-DEV]Drav wrote: Space I dont think you've been rude in this thread, I think Egg has read your words in the wrong way (easily done on the interwebz)

I appear to be highly skilled at being misunderstood on PR forum

And just to clarify - I support the PR team, of which I'm a member, whatever route PR goes down, and I sincerely respect the ambition and passion for the idea that egg and others have.

Yes I have doubts about the plan, and admittedly I've concentrated on the drawbacks and the alternatives, but I can also see the benefits of it as well

Move to another engine, this should PR have decided and done along time ago, but I hope this is a lesson for feature decisions.
You got all the skills and quality to make something good, don't let anyone stop you from that, and don't hold on to others works, as this MOD which you have gotten probably little respect for from EA for example.
You want something good to do, put your strength and effort into it, and don't rely that other will give you credit or support, go your own way and start making money out of this!

Well one thing which will be interesting is to see how the transition from a free mod teamwork endeavor into a money expected (even bread crumbs) one happens.

The fact that they'll be money at the end of the line is sure to complicate things a tad bit and bring simple e-dramas into a much bitter light (No I'm not cheering for this to happen , but human nature being what it is, its a sure hurdle to expect)

Questions arise, like how do you calculate everyone's contribution ? will R-cons be counted ? R-mods ? R-coms ? PRT admins ? What happens if someone gets kicked from the team ?

This isn't really a question, as we'll just have to wait and see how they'll choose to approach this considering their own RL experiences and examples already out there.

But it'll be interesting to see how in the end what was just a silly concept of changing a couple of sounds in Bf2 matured into a full fledged separate and better entity. And even if it fails, people will still learn useful lessons out of it for their own future projects.

[R-CON]space wrote:I agree with the "people with over 10 years of experience in the games industry" - its virtually impossible. Its you guys that seem to be disagreeing with them. One thing that I do know alot about, is business and start ups. Heres some pro tips that I think are relevant - though no doubt my advice will be rubbished and unwelcome. (I cut and pasted to save me some time)

Well your advice is quite irrelevant actually in this instance, as we do not fall into the category of start up that your advice is for. First ... we are not looking for funding, second PR2 is not a business idea ... if it were we would be making a 32 player console shootem up, third we are not hiring for convenience we take people on based on their skills ... there will be many people from PR1 who find that they are not needed because a MOD is a different from a GAME, 4th there is no company to manage just a community which is largely self managing anyway ... as PR2 develops the transition to a company will definitely have to take place as we will need due diligence and accountability ... BUT the advise from those with a wealth of experience is to try and put this off until its necessary because then you start to hemorrhage money. Finally , no one is seeking any confirmation for their actions ... we know the truth, we know how hard it is, but rather than wimp out and give up we are going to try and do it.

The advise of my friends was not ... don't try and do it ... it was go for it, but be aware of what a difficult transition it is, and that means be aware that you cannot make a game on the same basis that you make a mod. Drav points out the reasons why.

I am sure you have had lots of experience with business start ups ... but me and egg have had plenty of experience with running real business. Between us probably 30 + years.

Now what puzzles me most of all, is that you think that its fine for 30 of us devs to spend at least 2 years working nearly full time on project (and that is the kind of man hours it will take) for free ... once we have produced the game and are distributing it through a distributor who will want money to distribute (usually its a percentage of the cost), and you think that we should a) cover the cost of engine and tools ourselves b) make the game for free, c) pay a distributor to distribute it for us so that you can get it for free and d) offer upgrades and support for years ... all for free.

..... and you say you advise business start ups ?

I firmly believe that the future of PR, is being a mod of a new game.

You are free to go off and make a mod on another engine. We however have done that and have the teeshirt. We would like to take things to the next level ... and , make a game.

If a new mod group were to make a PR mod copy on any suitable next gen game with a large playerbase - for free - where would that leave PR2?

The same place we are now. Making a GAME and not a MOD. I see you simply do not understand the distinction.

Different target audience for starters. Don't you realize that to play a mod you have to BUY a game first ? Second , any financial models we are talking about now are merely in relation to models that exist now ... in the future it may well be that games are financed by in game advertising. We will have to wait and see how that all pans out and how we react to it. One thing you can be sure though ... without heavy weight investors we will be able to react and change to market dynamics much more fluidly, than we would if we had auditors looking over our shoulders.

And a MOD is pretty much a road to nowhere. A GAME is an avenue to to greater things (if we pull it off). It all depends what you want to do ... crawl around in the mud, or aim for the stars. We would rather do the latter.

BF3 is upcoming...?

I don't advise startups Helix - I've created "real" businesses, and managed them for several years, though my experience obviously counts for nothing alongside yours and eggs 30+ years of experience as MD/CEO.

Having said that, with your experience, Im surprised and slightly worried that you cant see the relevance of the pro tips that I posted. The project may well be starting as a community project, but if the end goal is creating a business, then the advice is very relevant. The transition between the two will be extremely difficult, as pointed out by Saobh.

This thread makes me facepalm so hard.

Im sure this is stil a long way off and people are flaming Even your own R-Con

We should be rejoicing , Not complaining that we have to pay 3bucks a month for somthing that will continuely update its content.

You might sell 50-60 copies if your lucky so you could probably get yourself a new computer to share.

[R-CON]space wrote: Having said that, with your experience, Im surprised and slightly worried that you cant see the relevance of the pro tips that I posted.

For people who have been in and run businesses your 'top pro tips' are kindergarten lessons (but important none the less). Thanks for the advice ... these and many many more things are all things that we are well aware of and have already taken into consideration. There will be many more things to consider as well as time progresses.

The project may well be starting as a community project, but if the end goal is creating a business, then the advice is very relevant. The transition between the two will be extremely difficult, as pointed out by Saobh.

And has been pointed out by myself. There is far more to it than your analysis as well.

We will continue to formulate ideas and solutions as the project progresses, however for you to try and tell Eggman how to suck eggs is slightly condescending (although also highly amusing). You would trot off with a very red face indeed if you knew what level of business he is used to being involved at. It certainly out scales anything that we will achieve with PR.

The team is in good hands ... and in rude health, if we listened to all the nay sayers we wouldn't even get the next mod release out the door. Its easy to be a doom merchant ... its hard to get off your arse and achieve something.

The bottom line is this ... the mod will die, there will be no 'port', thats just not how mods work ... name me one mod that has created a franchise ? We are taking the next logical step ... we are moving from mod --> indie game company. Many folks will fall by the wayside, but a core of the most dedicated will hopefully make it. Any money making will not be aimed at making all the devs millionaires ... although some recompense will be in order ... the money making will be to show the big boys that we can play ... that we have our act together. Then ... come PR3 ... then we will have clout, and hopefully proper investment ... and then we will be a fully fledged development company.

Its a difficult model to pull off ... but not impossible ... however we do have the advantage of advise on tap from someone who has done it. That and a considerable amount of more mature individuals who run businesses as part of the team. I think we can do it .... or I wouldn't be involved.

On a final note as well ... I have cut my way into an industry before that is considered almost impossible to get into, and I have this one thing to say. The difference between those that get there and those that dont ... is belief. Belief in yourself.