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The regular army does use them, but it's a rare occurance. The regular army also has binoculars. SNAP.

Why remove a perfectly good asset when there's no reason to as gato mentioned & pointed out, it could be a situation where they happened to be redesignated to help out.

SGT.Ice wrote:The regular army does use them, but it's a rare occurance. The regular army also has binoculars. SNAP.

Why remove a perfectly good asset when there's no reason to as gato mentioned & pointed out, it could be a situation where they happened to be redesignated to help out.

Not every grunt afaik, which I'd really like to see in PR, binos only for officers and other special kits (like the suggestion made some time ago).

Yeah and make it less fun, the last we need Brainlagg is another decrease of players.

B.Pronk(NL) wrote:Yeah and make it less fun, the last we need Brainlagg is another decrease of players.

As said, rather 1 server full of committed and trustworthy players, than 10 filled with ADD kids.

Quantity < Quality.

Edit: My view does not reflect the mentality of the whole community but from what came out of the suggestion thread regarding the binocs, mostly old and experience players agreed with it, while new and at times "bad" players disagreed. Pick out of it what you want.

I have no words for it. At this moment the mod is near struggling to survive and lots of older players already left. So 90% is new or has only one year or two years experience. Remember fun>brainlagg's opinion it serms we want to get to the point that it will unbalanced and not fun, rage fest....

PR gameplay modes don't encourage convoy tactics atm... And there are no ways to prevent the situation of having a single artillery IED blow up 3-5 humvees at a time because
1. artillery IEDs have a HUGE kill radius against humvees.
2. If you spaced out enough to prevent multiple humvees from getting killed by a single arty IED, the firepower benefits of a convoy would be negated.

Just something noted when planning for H's VIP escort mode... We removed the artillery IED on Basrah when testing to encourage convoys to protect the VIP instead of a VIP rambo straying from the planned path and hoping there isn't opposition out in the boondocks. Also a few other changes...
http://www.hardcoregamingcommunity.com/ ... p?96915.45

After some testing, the convoy tactic IS feasible atm for the current version of PR. Provided certain tweaks are made to the game, it can be a REAL booster to TEAMWORK while increasing FUN. If an artillery IED detecting capability were added it would be feasible to use convoys in future versions of PR while not losing the very fun artillery IED, especially so considering the MODELS of vehicles with IED detecting gear have already been made by PR DEVS! Btw I am a huge fan of the Convoy idea, but right now it is not useful...
(NOTE: CLV PANTHER desert-skinned has IED detecting gear modeled currently, but is not on a map yet. Would be awesome to see the DEV team utilize it with proper IED detection gear in the future.)

All this while INCREASING REALISM instead of unfairly nerfing the optics of certain vehicles.

B.Pronk(NL) wrote:I have no words for it. At this moment the mod is near struggling to survive and lots of older players already left. So 90% is new or has only one year or two years experience. Remember fun>brainlagg's opinion it serms we want to get to the point that it will unbalanced and not fun, rage fest....

You can turn this into a personal matter how much you want, it won't change the fact that YOUR opinion equally represents the whole community just as much as mine does. Because you disagree with it, doesn't mean everyone else does. Because you can't play with it, doesn't mean everyone else can't. Ofc this could also be completely in your favor but as I have no facts on that, I won't get further into it.

And for the record, FOR ME it would be more fun without binocs for every derp, as long range firefights with previous ambush might actually turn out useful instead of the common "derp, I see him on the hill half way across the map". The ground morphing issue over distance gives you away instantaneously if someone has a binocular, removing them might ease the problem.

And since when is expressing my opinion towards a quite long ago made suggestion encountered with such fierce hatred, seriously man, get laid and relax a bit.

=HCM= Shwedor wrote: the Convoy idea, but right now it is not useful...
(NOTE: CLV PANTHER desert-skinned has IED detecting gear modeled currently, but is not on a map yet. Would be awesome to see the DEV team utilize it with proper IED detection gear in the future.)

From what I recall, explosives detection gear is hardcoded and can't be circumvented. Same for the device to evaluate from which direction a shot came (can't remember the name).

No way to attach a "heat signature" to an IED and have the vehicle able to pick it up much like a jet? Only conflict I see would be people using AA kits, and on what map would a BLUFOR faction have reason to use an AA kit where artillery IEDs are present? And currently no maps with artillery IEDs also have aircraft with AA missiles... I'm not very familiar with Python coding in this game atm...

=HCM= Shwedor wrote:No way to attach a "heat signature" to an IED and have the vehicle able to pick it up much like a jet? Only conflict I see would be people using AA kits, and on what map would a BLUFOR faction have reason to use an AA kit where artillery IEDs are present? And currently no maps with artillery IEDs also have aircraft with AA missiles... I'm not very familiar with Python coding in this game atm...

I can't tell you much, I'm not familiar with the python-code either. It's just what I remember from a suggestion long time ago.

Brainlaag wrote:Not every grunt afaik, which I'd really like to see in PR, binos only for officers and other special kits (like the suggestion made some time ago).

If they do remove binos from most kits I think kits without acogs should get Binos either way. It doesn't seem particularly realistic for a soldier to not have some kind of glass these days, especially in Afghanistan.

Main reason would be that the human eye has much higher resolution than PR can give us on the screen so no zoom whatsoever is going to be less realistic than having some zoom.

PFunk wrote:If they do remove binos from most kits I think kits without acogs should get Binos either way. It doesn't seem particularly realistic for a soldier to not have some kind of glass these days, especially in Afghanistan.

Main reason would be that the human eye has much higher resolution than PR can give us on the screen so no zoom whatsoever is going to be less realistic than having some zoom.

But IRL there is much more folliage to use as cover and camouflage into. Further more IRL ground morphing doesn't exits, hilltops don't disappear and reveal the enemy as floating body in the air, nor does grass stop rendering making more of a hindrance for yourself than for the enemy. There are certain compromises we have to take into consideration.

Brainlaag wrote:But IRL there is much more folliage to use as cover and camouflage into.

Which has no bearing on desert maps.

Further more IRL ground morphing doesn't exits, hilltops don't disappear and reveal the enemy as floating body in the air, nor does grass stop rendering making more of a hindrance for yourself than for the enemy. There are certain compromises we have to take into consideration.

Too much compromize is taken towards hindering people. But if you have an ACOG you get the same morphing, if you have any scope you get that advantage. If you have iron sights or a reflex sight then you don't. More than anything what matters is having parity between all players.

Its not valid to refer to one or another issue, such as morphing or lack of cover, when it only applies to a select group in terms of this alleged "compromise". Unless we eliminate all scopes then there will always be people who have that advantage over those who don't, provided binocs are removed.

The balance with regards to engine quirks is a meaningless argument. Its not applicable evenly. What is only of concern is if its desired as a cynical design conceit to limit how much glass is available. However I'm not a fan of this "gimp people so they have to rely on each other" type of thing. Despite the plethora of these choices that have been made recently it hasn't shown much productive B-mod in the wider community, and we all know that things are if anything quite the opposite.

Fact is the modern soldier in the Western world needs his glass, and the game doesn't even replicate the functionality of the Mk1 eyeball, so its either blinder than a real soldier except for the guys who picked ACOG over Reflex, or the same visual acuity of every other player on the field.

Imagine being an NCO in a squad and you want to take your reflex sight, but now you can't spot targets for your SL if he has you somewhere separate from him. You just gimped coordination rather than improved it. I'm not sold.

If I'm not mistaking, PR:V removed the binoculars for most kits and firefights benefit greatly from it.

Nope firefights won't benefit from it since the only firefight you get is from 2 feetcaway from te enemy because it is nearly impossible to see an enemy far away due to whatever reason.

B.Pronk(NL) wrote:Nope firefights won't benefit from it since the only firefight you get is from 2 feetcaway from te enemy because it is nearly impossible to see an enemy far away due to whatever reason.

Thats what scopes are for It's not like you are holding your binoculars out while returning fire. The main change that removing binos would bring, are better chances as ambushers and those that actually start the firefight. Rather than that the equipment piece is hardly used expect for scouting the area prior to an attack, which the SLs or NCOs can do just fine while being the only ones with binos. I just can't get over myself when I see people staring at tanks with their binos out until they get a HE straight to the face (or CAS, or IFV, or APC, you name it), GOD THE RAGE!

Anyway those are assumptions and as PR:V doesn't fully represent regular PR, be it from the equipment nor from the maps, only a test can bring light into this case and I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be atleast tested. PR has changed a lot since they got introduced into the game afterall.

Edit:

PFunk wrote:Which has no bearing on desert maps.

Yes but being a floating practice target isn't exactly how it should work, there might be no foliage but we all know that camos don't work for shit in PR. Try to spot someone from a 100m away while hes wearing sand colors in some kind of veld'ish-desert'ish environment. Hard, in PR on the other hand you see them bright as a star, coupled with the texture flickering over distance and binoculars at hand, it's like your opponent is running around with a glowing 10m "Happy new year" sign. Limiting the amount of binoculars would decrease the chance of being spotted, as only one or two pairs of eyes are actively scanning with high magnification optics.

PR has horribly low view distance compared to real life. Also you see in much less detail and resolution that in real life. Binos are needed to ascertain whether some movement is terrain folding or not. To verify whether someone is friendly or not at a distance where you'd easily be able to tell in real life. Even to check if there's a ladder in the water on the other side of the 30m wide river. They need to stay as one of those things that need to be in PR because it's a game and not reality or a simulator.

And generally too, I am against changes that weaken individual players to make them rely more on others. That is sometimes good, but much of the time it's taking things too far and just lowering the amount of teamwork - because the amount of teamwork you need to have to properly use the features is beyond what happens in public rounds.

Brainlaag wrote:As said, rather 1 server full of committed and trustworthy players, than 10 filled with ADD kids.

Quantity < Quality.

Edit: My view does not reflect the mentality of the whole community but from what came out of the suggestion thread regarding the binocs, mostly old and experience players agreed with it, while new and at times "bad" players disagreed. Pick out of it what you want.

Sounds like an opinion & that is of those whom frequent the forums.


Aside from what you stated do the pros outweigh the cons for removing them. The binoculars are an amazing tool for me & many people i've known, they shouldn't be given to any kit (Although I prefer it that way for fun) there could always be the possibility to minimize the amount of them floating around, if we ever get the FTL kit.

Binoculars while they may lower the chances of an ambush, so does the environment & how it encourages you to move through it. When it comes to that i'd say it's more of a problem that vehicles can go just about anywhere. There is a lack of tight alleys/streets or debris preventing vehicles from entering.

For any reason i'd still rather keep them. But that has really nothing to do with lone HMMWV's or convoys.

In closing on my arguement i'll put this out there. You can try and force people to do things as you want by creating a maze with various obstacles all you want but are you just causing more problems than you should? Many thing's in game are not always needed, some help to a degree, sometimes they wreck things.

Brainlaag wrote:If I'm not mistaking, PR:V removed the binoculars for most kits and firefights benefit greatly from it.

Vietnam has no bearing on this discussion since its a different era of warfare in a different environment. #1 they have no scopes whatsoever #2 the firefights occur at much closer ranges by and large #3 Vietnam and Afghanistan or Iraq have so few similarities that its not even worth mentioning them.

Brainlaag wrote:Thats what scopes are for It's not like you are holding your binoculars out while returning fire. The main change that removing binos would bring, are better chances as ambushers and those that actually start the firefight. Rather than that the equipment piece is hardly used expect for scouting the area prior to an attack, which the SLs or NCOs can do just fine while being the only ones with binos.

This seems like a meaningless argument since you're basically saying its bad for the average PR player to be able to look for enemies lying in wait and instead should be forced to suffer poorer visual acuity and therefore give the ambusher better opportunity to catch him off guard.

I just can't get over myself when I see people staring at tanks with their binos out until they get a HE straight to the face (or CAS, or IFV, or APC, you name it), GOD THE RAGE!

And yet here you turn around and complain that PR players are just idiots and only use them to stare at tanks and get killed. So what is it? Are they too smart and spot the enemies when they shouldn't? Or is it that they're idiots and we have to protect them from themselves by taking away the tempting offer of omega zoomzorz?

Yes but being a floating practice target isn't exactly how it should work, there might be no foliage but we all know that camos don't work for shit in PR. Try to spot someone from a 100m away while hes wearing sand colors in some kind of veld'ish-desert'ish environment. Hard, in PR on the other hand you see them bright as a star, coupled with the texture flickering over distance and binoculars at hand, it's like your opponent is running around with a glowing 10m "Happy new year" sign. Limiting the amount of binoculars would decrease the chance of being spotted, as only one or two pairs of eyes are actively scanning with high magnification optics.

Again, proposing gimping players to ensure competition. Its deviation all over again. Make them blind so you can manage to get one up on them.

Someone explain to me that if the Binoculars of PR have made it impossible to maneuver without being spotted how does Onil manage to be so good at what he does?

I don't believe in gimping things to make it possible for stupid players to do better than they should for their skill level. I can get around without being spotted just fine. If I'm a Taliban fighter and I know the enemy has glass I should know that they'll see me.

Besides, with a UAV up its immaterial. A commander can give spot any movement better than binocs can. But I guess nobody considers this relevant since we all think Commanders are useless right?

But the best counter argument is merely an extrapolation of what I already posted above. I refer you to Solver:

Solver wrote:PR has horribly low view distance compared to real life. Also you see in much less detail and resolution that in real life. Binos are needed to ascertain whether some movement is terrain folding or not. To verify whether someone is friendly or not at a distance where you'd easily be able to tell in real life. Even to check if there's a ladder in the water on the other side of the 30m wide river. They need to stay as one of those things that need to be in PR because it's a game and not reality or a simulator.

In the end generating more exciting gameplay by limiting the information available to alert and intelligent players is just idiocy. It punishes good players and compensates for idiots who can't be patient enough to crawl through bushes. And as for the desert nobody should be expecting to move about unnoticed if they crest a hill. Urban situations are always a case of get indoors and stay away from windows.

My general opinion is that most PR players have such gobshite situational awareness that its already easy enough to get them in the backside, its just not so easy for those same players to be alert enough to do it to each other.

Nothing is going to be changed by changing game mechanics to B-mod what amounts to simply poor play. B-mod works only on some things, and not this in my opinion.

My arguments go in favor of bad players, I'm sick of how easy it's to find them, I'm sick of how easy it's to kill them and I'm sick of them getting killed because of the "OMG ZOOMZOR". There is no fun in playing against that type of players but as it seems that is become rather the rule than the exception. Removing binocs is not something that should make it easier for me but rather give me a bigger challenge while fighting, as I have to pay slightly more attention to my environment.

But as I have gone far too much off-topic on this thread and you seem to actively disagree, I'll drop it.