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Since you people are having a hard time comprehending the OP's post. Here is a real scenario that has happened.


Infantry Layer. That squad was there for the WHOLE match. Oh and we [RU Army] lost. as soon as we would get the flag Neutral, the Militia would come right back and take it over. That squad had 2 kills on objective 3 had 0 kills. The squad should have been disbanded, and, in my opinion the 6 man team kicked. Does no one go and say, "HEY, Squad Lead, maybe we should go back into the flag play over here instead of playing with each others ********"?

ps # I cannot spel.
ps # Yes, I as well as other SLs yelled over SL Channel to them, as well as typing it out for their help.

I am as frustrated by the level of gameplay lately as the next guy but I don't think it's because of squads off on their own.

I apologize for any disrespect, but I am just stating my opinion. I prefer a server like TG because there are no specific rules on how to play, so long as you follow orders from your SL and CO. It's an SL that makes a squad fight together and a CO that makes the squads work together. Absent this hierarchy, you're herding cats at best. This hierarchy is built into the game for a reason.

I regret my harsh tone, but back-seat squad leaders are a pet peeve of mine, and I got defensive after reading some of the language in this thread. I am always happy to follow orders, work with other squads, teach new players, and generally help the community, but I'm not big on people telling me what to do, and I do not believe that I am a bad SL as the title of this thread implies.

If the server rules dictate what I can and can't do to the point that it's no longer fun for me, I'll just leave the server. No other action is needed. I'm not a griefer or jerk or any of these things, and my intent is certainly not to ruin anyone else's fun. I just want the freedom to execute my battle plan without having to worry that some unknown command element needs to approve it first.

I can't tell you how many times I've joined a server and promptly left because of the lack of coordination, but I can tell you it happens more frequently now. I feel fortunate if I can get a few guys working with me and following orders, let alone working with other SLs and their squads. Piling some amorphous set of rules on top of that seems a bit heavy handed to me.

I'm all for rules that help encourage teamwork, but I don't understand the need or desire to want some unknown individual to call the shots for the team, who may or may not have a good tactical strategy or awareness. I believe this job belongs to the CO and not an admin.

This is my opinion, and mine alone. I am well aware that not all will share my opinion, but I believe I am still entitled to it. I'm sure somebody will let me know if I am not.

ComedyInK wrote:Since you people are having a hard time comprehending the OP's post. Here is a real scenario that has happened.


Infantry Layer. That squad was there for the WHOLE match. Oh and we [RU Army] lost. as soon as we would get the flag Neutral, the Militia would come right back and take it over. That squad had 2 kills on objective 3 had 0 kills. The squad should have been disbanded, and, in my opinion the 6 man team kicked. Does no one go and say, "HEY, Squad Lead, maybe we should go back into the flag play over here instead of playing with each others ********"?

ps # I cannot spel.
ps # Yes, I as well as other SLs yelled over SL Channel to them, as well as typing it out for their help.

Looks like an opportunity for a CO to come in and crack some skulls. Why did nobody assume command and set that wayward squad straight? If a CO did assume command and that squad disobeyed his orders, then by all means kick away. Otherwise, what right does one SL or a committee of SLs have to give orders to another squad?

In a match, this behavior would be unacceptable, but then again, there would be a CO keeping folks in line.

I have learned that some squads will work with me and some won't, and if I spend all my time worrying about what other people are doing, I'm probably going to be disappointed.

Going CO to solve that problem won't matter much when they still wouldn't listen, we had to try to ignore them and continue with the game, as it would've took the extra 5 minutes of energy on the them, when we could use it to maintain out defense/offense. I'm certain that at someone at one point someone did go CO, but it really wouldn't have mattered as the 'other' servers don't kick for this.

CR8Z wrote:It's an SL that makes a squad fight together and a CO that makes the squads work together. Absent this hierarchy, you're herding cats at best. This hierarchy is built into the game for a reason.

Commanders are absent in PR 95% of the time and they have as much Authority as a security guy at a mall. They can advice people to do the right thing, but if they need action they need to call the real police/admins.

CR8Z wrote:I am always happy to follow orders, work with other squads, teach new players, and generally help the community, but I'm not big on people telling me what to do, and I do not believe that I am a bad SL as the title of this thread implies.

You sound like a good SL. The problem is the PUNK SL's messing up the game balance by doing nothing.

CR8Z wrote: If the server rules dictate what I can and can't do to the point that it's no longer fun for me, I'll just leave the server. No other action is needed. I'm not a griefer or jerk or any of these things, and my intent is certainly not to ruin anyone else's fun. I just want the freedom to execute my battle plan without having to worry that some unknown command element needs to approve it first.

You know how it is... some punk is speeding down a specific road and hit and kills some innocent people.... what happens... the speed limit is changed to something ridiculous slow so now everyone has to drive at that speed even though they wouldn't crash like the PUNK did.
Thats how all rules are made... they suck for the general population but are made to deal with the few idiots that don't know how things work.

You save the innocent (game balance) by sacrificing some of your freedom.
I really doubt a ban would be enforced on something equivalent of being AFK, so you can still test your freedom and try to talk your way out of it or pay the speed-ticket (Resigned or kick-penalty) if you become a target.

CR8Z wrote: This is my opinion, and mine alone. I am well aware that not all will share my opinion, but I believe I am still entitled to it. I'm sure somebody will let me know if I am not.

No need to defend your right to an opinion.... everyone here has that right free country/internet-space and all

128 player servers will alleviate some of this hopefully

ComedyInK wrote:Since you people are having a hard time comprehending the OP's post. Here is a real scenario that has happened.


Infantry Layer. That squad was there for the WHOLE match. Oh and we [RU Army] lost. as soon as we would get the flag Neutral, the Militia would come right back and take it over. That squad had 2 kills on objective 3 had 0 kills. The squad should have been disbanded, and, in my opinion the 6 man team kicked. Does no one go and say, "HEY, Squad Lead, maybe we should go back into the flag play over here instead of playing with each others ********"?

ps # I cannot spel.
ps # Yes, I as well as other SLs yelled over SL Channel to them, as well as typing it out for their help.

LMAO This is a good example hahaha. Clearly this squad has a problem. PR is funny in that it is sorta like an IQ test. After a while you realize how freaking stupid a lot of players are. I mean look at this map you posted. You have 9 squads including the enemy doing the right thing and focusing on the OBJ, then you have this one rogue squad with a stupid SL way off the map. Oh and I know this is gonna make some people mad, but I really don't care ... how much you wanna bet that rogue squad is from freaking anywhere but from where I'm from or some BS. Just observing and reporting the truth here nothing more.
Someone on here posted above this that they don't like server admins making rules controlling his squads movements. Trust me that this guy is part of the problem, he likes to wander off and do weird **** with his 5 hostages. Screw that should be disbanded and kicked. You are ruining everyone elses experience by being a selfish moron. As this scenario on the map above shows, the team with the stupid squad leader and his hostages is outnumbered and will lose. Happens all the time. If you like doing weird "recon" **** then don't make a squad. There is NO REASON for an entire recon squad ever.

StandardSmurf wrote:LMAO This is a good example hahaha. Clearly this squad has a problem. PR is funny in that it is sorta like an IQ test. After a while you realize how freaking stupid a lot of players are. I mean look at this map you posted. You have 9 squads including the enemy doing the right thing and focusing on the OBJ, then you have this one rogue squad with a stupid SL way off the map. Oh and I know this is gonna make some people mad, but I really don't care ... how much you wanna bet that rogue squad is from freaking Brazil or Romania or some BS. Just observing and reporting the truth here nothing more.
Someone on here posted above this that they don't like server admins making rules controlling his squads movements. Trust me that this guy is part of the problem, he likes to wander off and do weird **** with his 5 hostages. Screw that should be disbanded and kicked. You are ruining everyone elses experience by being a selfish moron. As this scenario on the map above shows, the team with the stupid squad leader and his hostages is outnumbered and will lose. Happens all the time. If you like doing weird "recon" **** then don't make a squad. There is NO REASON for an entire recon squad ever.

I agree with the above post.

I think that the problem here has been a lot of people missing the point. It's not about admins wanting to stop anyone having fun, it's all about people who play a team game ignoring the requests from their team for some help so they can continue to be selfish. It doesn't matter where you are on the map or what you are doing, if you ignore your team and don't help them then you are not playing a team game. Simple as that.

Recon and ambush squads have their well deserved place. I've seen teams win because of efficiency outside the objectives.

Like I've been saying, it's not about how people like to play, but that admins shouldn't feel ashamed to act if it's obviously a case of lost squad.

Lonewolf squads can indeed help their team win, by killing enemy troops, logi trucks and armour transiting from base.

The fact that it's essentially flag rushing and undermines the point of a teamwork game sort of demeans it as a tactic in my eyes though.

I rarely see the same squads defending a boring flag whilst the rest of the team is busy..

Mikemonster wrote:Lonewolf squads can indeed help their team win, by killing enemy troops, logi trucks and armour transiting from base.

The fact that it's essentially flag rushing and undermines the point of a teamwork game sort of demeans it as a tactic in my eyes though.

I rarely see the same squads defending a boring flag whilst the rest of the team is busy..

Busy. That is a loaded word in that we now must apparently let an admin (not a CO) discern what is "busy" and if it is a squad disbanding offense. Ah Poobah Admin speaks! Maybe when the admin is exhausted from so much deciding he could incorporate it into more ad nauseum vote spam.

should squad A be disbanded? 1= yes, 2 = no

If you are brand new to this game and deemed not appropriately "busy" you get disbanded? So essentially this is a restriction on squad leaders role. First CO is neutered and now squad leader is up for an exam. I'll avoid that server like the bubonic plague.

DDS wrote:Busy. That is a loaded word in that we now must apparently let an admin (not a CO) discern what is "busy" and if it is a squad disbanding offense. Ah Poobah Admin speaks! Maybe when the admin is exhausted from so much deciding he could incorporate it into more ad nauseum vote spam.

should squad A be disbanded? 1= yes, 2 = no

If you are brand new to this game and deemed not appropriately "busy" you get disbanded? So essentially this is a restriction on squad leaders role. First CO is neutered and now squad leader is up for an exam. I'll avoid that server like the bubonic plague.

So let me get this strait!!!!.... your okay with a CO telling you to disband because your not following orders...but not if it's an admin with the powers to enforce it on you?

And your also totally okay with SL's doing whatever they want even it means certain death for your team as long as freedom/caos prevail?


I think it's more likely that you have run into a fair share of unfair admins and that's why you tend to dislike giving them more powers... or perhaps you are an admin and would hate to administrate this task.... I know I would! being an admin is a shitty thing when your trying to play the game at the same time. More tasks = more distractions.



The idea behind admins taking actions is not to constantly search for squads off missions and playing commander role all the time...... it is to get rid of Squad-leaders that ignore calls from other squad-leaders and ignore enquirers on what they are up to through "warnings" "teamchat" and mumble. Any experienced PR player can tell the difference of a PUNK SL and a SL trying new experimental things.... If the SL is in the borderland..... just warn him and leave him be for a while.... If he is still up to no good.... I see no harm in resigning him.... and if the squad continues... resign them too.

Ive seen squads in the middle of nowhere building and burning the same fob just to get "best squad"..... ive seen squads running around unarmed (as conventional army) boxing with there friends in the middle of nowhere..... or doing target practice or rally driving ..... or whatever you can think of that you could have done on a local server or a "seeding" server but why do it on a 64 player server where it means loosing the game. And im not talking about 5 min of fun time.... im talking 45 min - 60 min wasted untill the round is lost.

Gracler wrote:So let me get this strait!!!!.... your okay with a CO telling you to disband because your not following orders...

Yes if those are the rules.

Gracler wrote:but not if it's an admin with the powers to enforce it on you?

Enforce what exactly? What is the rule?

This is why we have commanders and squad leaders built into the game mechanics. Usually the rule is simple. Squad refused my request (Obey CO orders).
Go outside of this game mechanic and willy-nilly arbiter based on what exactly? Any squad who is a certain distance from point A or B? Traveling in opposite direction of team? Squad gave me a bad feeling?

Lets take it a bit further. Pilot chased jet instead of defending flag - Tank squad RTB'd instead of waiting for repair - Squad retreated instead of attacked. edit: Do we really want admins making those arbitrary decisions? Thats where this will lead imo.

Gracler wrote:And your also totally okay with SL's doing whatever they want

Yes, as long as they abide by stated rules.

Maybe what is needed is a rule which states. Admin can do whatever he wants because its my server. Thats fine too. Just state it and we'll choose a server to play on accordingly.

I will add, what if that SL does the "right" thing 99.99% of the time, but gets kicked for that 00.01% chance that he was having a bit of fun in a game that he plays in his free time, and some random admin calls him on it by kick/banning him? Are you totally okay with that?

On another point, why is it that you say that nobody will listen to a CO? What makes people listen to an SL? I think it's that the SLs with the skill set to lead don't want the boring job of commanding the team. And SLs don't like others telling them what to do in general.

Oh man, could I go on! I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and pray to God that I don't load into a server with those kinds of restrictions.

GLHF

Guys I advice you to stop this conversation since there will be no winner. In the end there are too many factors and "if's" to think about and that makes a discussion almost impossible, or at least an end of it. I can only give on advise to the players and admins: do what you think is the best for your team at the moment. And if anyone asks you why you made that choice just say like one of my favorite comedians (Alonzo Bodden): "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

CR8Z wrote:I will add, what if that SL does the "right" thing 99.99% of the time, but gets kicked for that 00.01% chance that he was having a bit of fun in a game that he plays in his free time, and some random admin calls him on it by kick/banning him? Are you totally okay with that?

On another point, why is it that you say that nobody will listen to a CO? What makes people listen to an SL? I think it's that the SLs with the skill set to lead don't want the boring job of commanding the team. And SLs don't like others telling them what to do in general.

Oh man, could I go on! I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and pray to God that I don't load into a server with those kinds of restrictions.

GLHF

And to conclude this thread;

Admins dont disband/kick/ban on sight in such cases. SL should be contaced via Mumble Sl channel/chat to explain his actions. If there is no response or his plan is deemed completely useless or if he is simply disobeying CO; he gets warned for disobedience and asked to return. If he continues disobeying, he gets a resign. Thats how it is now.

Incase CO doesnt have admin powers and there is an admin present, he can ask an admin to do the resigning job for him. That why admins are here. If there is no CO present, admin can aswell put a vote up and if 1/4-1/3 of the squads deem that particular squad useless (they take the most shit for not having them around and the lack of comms on SL channel, so they are entitled to vote), that SL gets resigned...

There, problem solved, no admin abuse, and its completely up to servers with CO rule in place. This thread is just a rant about the lack of teamwork, yet again.

I love the way some of you argue that simply "going CO" Will solve everything

Really, power doesnt work depending on what chair you sit in, or what your title is.

Power comes from example and symbol.

The admins have the real power in any server.

Administrators are not police. They dont deal with just the "crimes". They are also the lawyers and Judges. They are the politicians who decide what rules are to be enforced. And they are the king, who has absolute power.

Power can be corrupted, and I welcome anyone to critizice PRTA f.ex. But without power, there will be no order. People dont fall into line without some sort of instigation.

I do prefer positive instigation over negative ofc. Leaders and common sense is quite welcome and often the common tale. But usually there are people who did not get the message, and needs to be dealt with.

The admin comes in to correct the errandous behaviour of broken gamemodes and hardcoded players. They are there to ensure there is good gameplay, regardless of the limitations of the engine.

I for one will easily command from an SL position. And if you dont do as I say, ill just use my warn kick ban procedure. Until you change your mind, or dissapear.

And I dont have a problem with yelling either. TBH, one of my favourite things about PR, is that I can yell at people. And its socialy acceptable.

Commanders live at the edge of acceptance of squadleaders who are willing to listen and follow. I live on the firm belief, that you sit on the edge of my acceptance and willingness to give you space. I am your commander when you are on the server, I expect you to perform well and adequate. I will tell you clearly when you make a mistake, and I will get mad at anyone not being in the right position.

There has been a spoiling of the SLs in PR. They cant be kicked. Only by admins. People love to say "If I cant play my way, then I wont play on that server."

Yet you dont even take time to realize the amount of respect you gain from the members in your squad, who give up their gamestyle for your leadership. They give up their decision making on your ideas. And then you come here and state that admins should not punish you for attempting to do the same.

Whenever I squadlead I have a responsibility to my squad, to give them a good time and to ensure that we help the team.

The administrators feel the same way. And have the power to kick anyone who gets in their way.

This

CR8Z wrote:I will add, what if that SL does the "right" thing 99.99% of the time, but gets kicked for that 00.01% chance that he was having a bit of fun in a game that he plays in his free time, and some random admin calls him on it by kick/banning him? Are you totally okay with that?

On the bright side we already have a "disband" feature already. It's called smart-balance.

[R-CON]Wicca wrote:Administrators... They are the politicians who decide what rules are to be enforced.

Thank you for such clarity and honesty. I am truly moved.

Heavy Death wrote:And to conclude this thread;

Admins dont disband/kick/ban on sight in such cases. SL should be contaced via Mumble Sl channel/chat to explain his actions. If there is no response or his plan is deemed completely useless or if he is simply disobeying CO; he gets warned for disobedience and asked to return. If he continues disobeying, he gets a resign. Thats how it is now.

.............

There, problem solved, no admin abuse, and its completely up to servers with CO rule in place. This thread is just a rant about the lack of teamwork, yet again.

So much truth in this post. So that is why i'm going to withdraw from this discussion.

I agree with Wicca on this one.

COs are underpowered and are only there as a figure-head when push comes to shove. They're almost like a co-pilot's pacenotes or the woman's voice in fighter jets: "Pull up. Pull up." Unfortunately, the resign function never made it to where the commander had access to it, to really instate his authority.

Unless COs are allowed close admin support, they are usually just wind in the breeze and UAV support.