So Outlawz and myself have been the ones responsible for all the recent map rebalances and changes.viirusiiseli wrote:New STD layout asset balancing is a bit wonky, to say the least.
2 MTLB 30mm and a Shturm against 2x LAV-25 and TOW HMMWV isn't really balanced due to thermal vs non-thermal. To top it off, US gets two Avengers, that can kill infantry and MTLBs.
R Better then It was. could probably be improved. Open to feedback.Yes, I apperciate the breath of fresh air asset layout wise and understand the thermal asset limitations. I'm not suggesting add BMP-2M to every map. But rather that lack of thermals causes balance issues which should be addressed by picking the best fitting vehicles from MEC inventory to the map and increasing the number of assets they get.FFG wrote:So Outlawz and myself have been the ones responsible for all the recent map rebalances and changes.
So going into it this you've got to understand the limitations we have.
The first being we don't actually change the assets and how the preform (e.g. giving assets thermals etc). Secondly we balance based on a vacuum, squad claim etc, and performance against one another.
So my major gripe with the last version of Khamisiyah AAS 64 comes down to skill factor of the APCS. In the past I've gone completely braindead in a BMP2M and still 1v2 and even 1v3'd the US APCs on both AAS32 & 64 due to the BMP2M just being overall a really good asset. While generally on the Alt layout the BMP2M verse M2A2 fight is relatively balanced. Overall still bias towards the BMP2M being able to follow up with a second ATGM straight away.
The LAV25 verse BMP2M balance was a bit of a laugh. Sure both get thermals. But 4 ATGMs are enough to wipe the entire tank squad if you play smart in it. I think overall even with the beast lacking thermals. In a pure 1v1 who ever shoots first will generally win.
Now onto Shturm vs TOW humvee. I spent alot of time weighing up the pros and cons of shturm and spandrel. Overall I think Shturm is still a better counter part to the TOW humvee in the its current state.
As for Avengers. I mean, yeah they are strong. But lets be real I mean if your in a beast and an avenger kills you. You deserve to die. When I look at maps like Kashan(that doesn't have AAVs) and Bijar (which has Gun only AAVs) I see CAS generally preform a bit too much. So Id rather have the avengers and run the risk of people using them as IFVs.
TL
Btw, Has anyone had the chance to play the new AAS INF layout? Im interested to see how it plays out.
Yeah I mean, Thermals are generally an issue when the top of the food chain assets don't have them. I don't think it matters as much with APCsviirusiiseli wrote:Yes, I apperciate the breath of fresh air asset layout wise and understand the thermal asset limitations. I'm not suggesting add BMP-2M to every map. But rather that lack of thermals causes balance issues which should be addressed by picking the best fitting vehicles from MEC inventory to the map and increasing the number of assets they get.
The View distance on INF is lower then all the other layers. its only 800 meters.viirusiiseli wrote:On AAS INF there should only be 1 .50cal MTLB or Boragh. Basically for transport. Something tracked with no zoom doesn't fit in a 4km map with that viewdistance. Especially given they're worse than a normal uparmored .50cal HMMWV.
Issue with BRDMs is the 14.5mm gun can pen the glass on the humvee. which you can sorta do with the 50cal against the BRDM. Though giving MEC another BRDM-2 probably isn't a bad idea.viirusiiseli wrote:Give the MEC 2x 10min delay BRDM-2s and rather PKT MTLBs at start against normal HMMWVs. T-62 doesn't get used against infantry effectively unless being manned by really good crews. BRDMs give a chance for MEC to counter CROWs/normal HMMWVs which can kill infantry and stay out of T-62 reach quite easily.
Standard is seemingly the only layer I've played in the past 2 weeks. I've never experienced either sides APCs be super aggressive. In my experience both teams APC squads tend to focus on killing the ATGM vehicles and then by the time they've done that INF squads have TOWs up and kill them anyways.viirusiiseli wrote:For STD, if you wish to keep beasts against LAVs, might as well give a BRDM or two for MEC. Or if you think it affects APC vs APC combat too much, make it PKT MTLBs.
Mats could probably quote some actual numbers, but based on feeling Id say both the 30mm and the 25mm bush master ingame seem to deviate as much as eachother.viirusiiseli wrote:Other possibilities are giving BMP-2+beast or 2x BMP-2. The larger zoom of the BMP-2 would give MEC something to actually kill inf with on that map. Beast is great and all but if you want balance with LAVs, BMP2 is a better choice because it can actually perform well on a map with long range engagements.
I always found the crow humvee v brdm a pretty good balance point.FFG wrote: Issue with BRDMs is the 14.5mm gun can pen the glass on the humvee. which you can sorta do with the 50cal against the BRDM. Though giving MEC another BRDM-2 probably isn't a bad idea.
When APCs are fighting each other it doesn't matter. Forest maps are an exception. When APCs don't fight, but go for infantry instead, thermal APCs will always be more effective. That's why I think the numbers or types of assets need to be adjusted instead of picking BTR-80 vs LAV-25 or something similar.FFG wrote:Yeah I mean, Thermals are generally an issue when the top of the food chain assets don't have them. I don't think it matters as much with APCs
Still, no zoom on a map where normal engagement with APC is 200+ meters. Of course I can shoot up to 500m ranges myself but unless you have a 1080p monitor, good luck going past that first 100m.FFG wrote:The View distance on INF is lower then all the other layers. its only 800 meters.
Yes, one of the only advantages of the BRDM in that fight is the HE/AP rounds. Then the disadvantages for BRDM are: very little zoom, no thermals, CROWs can hide in smoke and be invincible, CROWs can be impossible to kill in hull-down with only its protector turret visible so he can shoot you, and the CROWs has vehicle smokes to run away any time.FFG wrote:Issue with BRDMs is the 14.5mm gun can pen the glass on the humvee. which you can sorta do with the 50cal against the BRDM. Though giving MEC another BRDM-2 probably isn't a bad idea.
US has more assets and they are more effective than MEC assets. They don't always get used properly, but if they do, MEC is effed. It could be done better.FFG wrote:Standard is seemingly the only layer I've played in the past 2 weeks. I've never experienced either sides APCs be super aggressive. In my experience both teams APC squads tend to focus on killing the ATGM vehicles and then by the time they've done that INF squads have TOWs up and kill them anyways.
Don't know where you picked deviation from, I was talking about zoom on the BMP-2, which makes it better at killing inf than MTLB 30mm.FFG wrote:Mats could probably quote some actual numbers, but based on feeling Id say both the 30mm and the 25mm bush master ingame seem to deviate as much as eachother.
If you're talking about the Khami layer with the USMC, the Marines never had CROW Humvees; I remember reading somewhere that a 3 Star believes they "reduce situational awareness"Rabbit wrote:I always found the crow humvee v brdm a pretty good balance point.
Fair point. So thinking on the APCs then, we could do a couple layouts.viirusiiseli wrote:When APCs are fighting each other it doesn't matter. Forest maps are an exception. When APCs don't fight, but go for infantry instead, thermal APCs will always be more effective. That's why I think the numbers or types of assets need to be adjusted instead of picking BTR-80 vs LAV-25 or something similar.
Code: Select all
USMC
- 2 x LAV25
- 1 x TOW humvee
MEC
- 2 x MTLB 6MA
- 1 x Shturm
- 1 x BRDM-2Code: Select all
USMC
- 2 x LAV25
- 1 x AAVP
- 1 x TOW humvee
MEC
- 2 x MTLB 6MA
- 1 x BTR-60
- 1 x Shturm
- 1 x BRDM-2Code: Select all
USMC
- 2 x LAV25
- 1 x AAVP
- 1 x TOW humvee
MEC
- 1 x BMP-2
- 1 x BTR-80
- 1 x ShturmI know its not the case on all servers. But the general trend to assets like the boragh and other shitboxes is that they are unclaimed and could be taken by INF squads to be their battle cab.viirusiiseli wrote: Still, no zoom on a map where normal engagement with APC is 200+ meters. Of course I can shoot up to 500m ranges myself but unless you have a 1080p monitor, good luck going past that first 100m.
I just see putting those jeep-style APCs on big maps as pointless.
Yeah that was generally the Idea for the balance between CROWs vs BRDM. But yeah, will probably swap out the MTLB or Two for some more BRDMs.viirusiiseli wrote: Yes, one of the only advantages of the BRDM in that fight is the HE/AP rounds. Then the disadvantages for BRDM are: very little zoom, no thermals, CROWs can hide in smoke and be invincible, CROWs can be impossible to kill in hull-down with only its protector turret visible so he can shoot you, and the CROWs has vehicle smokes to run away any time.
Despite those, the BRDM is still the best way to balance CROWs, as Rabbit said.
Yeah, well it was sorta just test case for 4km INF layers. I mean I've only played Khamisiyah INF maybe once in the past 2 years. So making the INF layer a bit interesting with a more asymetrical balance to get it played more was really our goal with it. We knew full well that it was probably gonna be a little unbalanced, but as to which team we're a bit unsure.viirusiiseli wrote:US has more assets and they are more effective than MEC assets. They don't always get used properly, but if they do, MEC is effed. It could be done better.
Brought it up based on the fact past 500-600m accurately getting rounds down range on an enemy APC in either of them isn't easy. It comes down to whos the better gunner at that point.viirusiiseli wrote:Don't know where you picked deviation from, I was talking about zoom on the BMP-2, which makes it better at killing inf than MTLB 30mm.
Out of those options:FFG wrote:Fair point. So thinking on the APCs then, we could do a couple layouts.
Option A
USMC
- 2 x LAV25
- 1 x TOW humvee
MEC
- 2 x MTLB 6MA
- 1 x Shturm
- 1 x BRDM-2
Option B
USMC
- 2 x LAV25
- 1 x AAVP
- 1 x TOW humvee
MEC
- 2 x MTLB 6MA
- 1 x BTR-60
- 1 x Shturm
- 1 x BRDM-2
Option C
USMC
- 2 x LAV25
- 1 x AAVP
- 1 x TOW humvee
MEC
- 1 x BMP-2
- 1 x BTR-80
- 1 x Shturm
With 2A42 deviation doesn't matter, it's HE is powerful enough to be effective long range, which is good. With M242 you need a good elevated position or it's useless. Bushmaster has incredibly shitty HE for years now for some reason, but thermals make up for it and still make it better than BMP-2 as far as killing inf goes.FFG wrote:Brought it up based on the fact past 500-600m accurately getting rounds down range on an enemy APC in either of them isn't easy. It comes down to whos the better gunner at that point.