Project Reality Forums

Agree about the Civilian kit statements, in a game that is capable of several bots populating a city to simulate civilians sure, but in a game like PR that is hugely engine limited and focusing on engagements best done by the BF2 engine and limited players the civilian is just largely out of place. Rarely ever seen anyone use a civi for the roles the DEVs try to make it useful for(medic support with rope protect teammates etc). Just a waste of a slot.

Lange wrote:Agree about the Civilian kit statements, in a game that is capable of several bots populating a city to simulate civilians sure, but in a game like PR that is hugely engine limited and focusing on engagements best done by the BF2 engine and limited players the civilian is just largely out of place. Rarely ever seen anyone use a civi for the roles the DEVs try to make it useful for(medic support with rope protect teammates etc). Just a waste of a slot.

The first mistake was putting it in game. The second was putting "civilian" anywhere in the name and encouraging the use of the term in the community.

Eddie Baker wrote:The second was putting "civilian" anywhere in the name and encouraging the use of the term in the community.

Yes they where originally called "civilians" back in v0.5 but now for a few releases they have been called "Collaborators", or for the British military term, "Dickers" who are low level, unarmed spotters feeding information back to their commanders but since they are unarmed the ROE state you can't shoot them (although the ROEs have changed from time to time in both Iraq and Afghanistan that at some points, did allow you to shoot them).

This is also how we represent them now ingame, with their primary function being a spotter and helping out their insurgent buddies.

Although I agree there is a lot we can still do to improve them, this element is quite an important part of the game when used correctly but most of the time is over exploited with collaborators "wanting to die" where in r/l, they generally don't.

There's still nothing like teasing a blufor troop to run out of his cover in his attempt to arrest you, just to watch him get blasted by an SVD waiting for him. Or even better, throwing rocks at guys behind cover trying to piss them off and flush them out only to hit one and see him go down.

It's broken as hell, it's really hard to use it really as a legitimate "civilian" in the scale and limitations of BF2, but I'd be sad if it went away. Good usage of it can help out quite a bit.

Celestial1 wrote: It's broken as hell, it's really hard to use it really as a legitimate "civilian" in the scale and limitations of BF2, but I'd be sad if it went away. Good usage of it can help out quite a bit.

Yeah, it is rarely used properly. I think it should become a limited class, because often times almost half of ins team is a bunch of collaborators, and I doubt that helps with ins getting steamrolled. If 1/4 or more of your team is unarmed and trying to get themselves killed, then it just becomes a losing battle.

and about giving some tanks for the insurgents? like a T-62 and BRDM? if the americans goe keep with Bradely and lav this can give they a work.

Roque_THE_GAMER wrote:and about giving some tanks for the insurgents? like a T-62 and BRDM? if the americans goe keep with Bradely and lav this can give they a work.

Not sure if he be trolling....

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:Yes they where originally called "civilians" back in v0.5 but now for a few releases they have been called "Collaborators"

Then why does "civilian" keep getting stuck next to that term in the manual?

Eddie Baker wrote:Then why does "civilian" keep getting stuck next to that term in the manual?

Name seems to have stuck as even I call them civis when spotting them ingame

But ye, should get it fixed in the manual etc.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:Name seems to have stuck as even I call them civis when spotting them ingame

But ye, should get it fixed in the manual etc.

I think I'm missing something, why does the name matter?

DesmoLocke wrote:Not sure if he be trolling....

no, I'm not trolling, it's something that would make sense, after all what are those carcasses of tanks scattered around the map?

from the regular army that used tanks?

Rolling_Ruedo wrote:I think I'm missing something, why does the name matter?

Because a collaborator is not the same as a civilian. The terms mean different things. In real life you would want to arrest/interrogate all of the collaborators, but not all of the civilians. Collaborators are always present when operating within a hostile population - Whether it be Tamil, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Northern Ireland, Columbia, etc.

A lot of people don't have English as their first language (which is fine) and I think this is why the name 'civilian' and 'collaborator' gets confused.

The collaborator may well be a civilian, but he is collaborating with the insurgents in PR. This is why he is 'arrestable'.


I like collaborators and I think they serve an important purpose - to limit the overpowered nature of Blufor firepower. It's just a shame that they are used irresponsibly by lots of players.

It was great when they could be used as a Squad Leader kit, as they were invulnerable to enemy fire and you could use the kit to allow you to do what they would in real life - Direct your men onto the enemy whilst being 'immune' from the enemy yourself.

Imagine them as cell leaders that are active in the local community, etc.


Definitions:

col?lab?o?rate
/kəˈlabəˌrāt/
Verb

Work jointly on an activity, esp. to produce or create something.
Cooperate traitorously with an enemy.

Synonyms
cooperate - pull together

ci?vil?ian
/səˈvilyən/
Noun
A person not in the armed services or the police force.

Mikemonster wrote:Because a collaborator is not the same as a civilian. The terms mean different things. In real life you would want to arrest/interrogate all of the collaborators, but not all of the civilians. Collaborators are always present when operating within a hostile population - Whether it be Tamil, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Northern Ireland, Columbia, etc.

A lot of people don't have English as their first language (which is fine) and I think this is why the name 'civilian' and 'collaborator' gets confused.

The collaborator may well be a civilian, but he is collaborating with the insurgents in PR. This is why he is 'arrestable'.


I like collaborators and I think they serve an important purpose - to limit the overpowered nature of Blufor firepower. It's just a shame that they are used irresponsibly by lots of players.

It was great when they could be used as a Squad Leader kit, as they were invulnerable to enemy fire and you could use the kit to allow you to do what they would in real life - Direct your men onto the enemy whilst being 'immune' from the enemy yourself.

Imagine them as cell leaders that are active in the local community, etc.


Definitions:

Think this is a great point, if the collaborator kit could be used in effective ways as you mentioned and not a asshat/troll kit it would be a lot better.

Played Fallujiah last night as a SL and we did well, but collaborator kit not being able to build FOB's was a major handicap as it's the only kit able to move around the map once Blufor start shooting.

I was actually taking the Collab kit and looking for Officer kits when I needed to build a FOB - it was much more productive. By taking the SL kit and moving to build a FOB you just die like the rest if you get seen.

Once you've gone ahead you can direct guys to you and watch for enemies, again not really possible with the SL kit as it forces you into combat (which I find is against the point of an SL - your role is to use the other 7 guys to kill - if you have time to shoot you're probably not doing your job properly).

Mikemonster wrote:Played Fallujiah last night as a SL and we did well, but collaborator kit not being able to build FOB's was a major handicap as it's the only kit able to move around the map once Blufor start shooting.

I was actually taking the Collab kit and looking for Officer kits when I needed to build a FOB - it was much more productive. By taking the SL kit and moving to build a FOB you just die like the rest if you get seen.

Once you've gone ahead you can direct guys to you and watch for enemies, again not really possible with the SL kit as it forces you into combat (which I find is against the point of an SL - your role is to use the other 7 guys to kill - if you have time to shoot you're probably not doing your job properly).

I completely agree with you, the lack of a mobile phone and the consequence that you cannot build hideouts, SPGs, mortars and place markers is a severe problem. Maybe they could bring it back again and make it a punishable offence to put out your mobile, because you are a "dicker" then. Of course as an SL using a collaborator kit you can act as a squad medic leading your unit from the rear, but adding a mobile phone will add just what they need at this moment.

For the smart asses that start screaming now that it will not matter, please walk away. I always use the radio/phone when being an SL and building FOBs and other things is my way to win the round.

However Mike I disagree with your last sentence. You can also lead your squad as an "NCO" being more a soldier than an officer leading the unit from the rear. If this is effective is discus-able but in my opinion it is a good way to lead a unit since it tends to keep your unit together.

Thanks Pronk, and agreed there isn't a right or wrong when it comes to how to lead.

I have made a suggestion to reinstate the Collab kit as a SL kit, we'll see if it gets approved. I think it would be a sensible way to balance Ins a bit, without giving one side more or less firepower.

I like it, Mike. This would be especially relevant on Fallujah, as a lack of mobility to construct hideouts is indeed a major factor there. I am not certain this would be enough to counter Blufor's armored fury zerg storm, but it would certainly make a difference. Additionally, the increased number of contributing Collaborators should mean that more insurgents will be revived, which in turn would help fight the endless intel steam-rolls that undermine the Insurgent's defensive advantage.

11 - 112 kills in the first 10mins.

I was squad leader, i was using mumble with other squads, we had a medic, we put down fobs and spgs...
We still got overrolled...

It isn't funny anymore. Fix it finally!