"Cunning" plan for forcing Squad Specialization

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

I could see some major confusion going on at the start of the round. Like people creating 3 air squads at once or something. Then everyone has to sort out what squad is doing what, who gets in on these specialized squads, and things of that nature start to come about. Then people complain about not getting on certain squads, things start to get ugly. I'd hate to be an Air SL or something and have 9 other people trying to get in.

Whether you like it or not i promise you that if the DEVs could they would probaly create a SIMPLE squad system where instead of creating a general squad, you would have to choose to create a specific type of squad.....god i hope :roll:
It is already a case of first come first serve for vehicles and all types of specialized equipement. It has always been this way in FPS and will remain so, particualr in PR.

Therefore this system mearly organizes the the first players who get equipement into one group, where they can communicate with each other and operate a billion times more effectively together than if they where strung all over the place, not in or in random squads.

As i said earlier, the number of each different type of SL kit woud vary.
However i believe and i am sure you will all that all players on a team should have the choise to play as infantry* if they want becuase we dont want to force people to drive tanks or fly do we!
Therefore i would suggest that there should be around 9 Infantry Squad leader kits becuase that is the max number of possible squads, thus allowing for *.
To ensure all the players who manage to request the SL Air, Armour or other very specialzied kits and then the players who join that sqaud are well organized, it is imperiative that there is a limited number of these SL kits.
Limited number of these squads, mean the players operating particualr assets have no choise but to be in 1 of a small number of squads that can operate those assets.

Here is an example of the avliable equipment comapred to ARmour SL kits and crewman kits:

- 2 Main Battle Tanks
- 2 APC's or IFV's
- 1 Mobile AA
- 2 repair vehicles

- 2 Armour Squad Leader kits avliable in total
- 10 Crewman kits

This means 10 players can operate Armour and 2 can go round picking up the peices (repair rats)! in total. Plenty enough in my mind becuase it is close to bloody half the team!

PLease also note that there are 10 crewman kits becuase both the 2 Armour Squad Leader kits enable the SLs to driver Armour aswell.

Then of course, what happens when the SL carrying the specialized kit dies? Is it possible for the Infantry SL to suddenly request an air officer kit should the original Air SL die? Then you really end up with some massive confusion.

God Knows! LOL. However i woudl be confident that the DEVs could create some form of timer or lock that prevents this from happening. Rember that requestable kits in 0.5 used to be reserved for a the person who died using it, so he could get it back again (note this i believe no longer exists in 0.6) and this feature would be perfect for this system.



FINAL VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:...jking

I have played on numerous servers many times that force players to join squads by kicking those that do not after a set period of time.
But at the start of the round, when no squads have been formed or a small number that are full, I DO OFTEN SEE players who dont want to be SLs but do want to join a squad, ask repitidly for those who can or do want to Squad Lead to form squads.

This is a clear indication in my mind that the system that forces players to squad up has helped them realize OR atleast shown to me that most players do realize the responsiblity and challenge of squad leading and are willing to let those who believe they can accept this challenge attempt to do so - most players who struggle to lead DONT and let those who dont stuggle as much LEAD.


And any, Team thats cant share assets (cant accept not having a tank) or are fulll of idiots incapalbe of TRYING to squad leader dont deserve to win.
But for those players who are decent but find them selves on these teams, it up to them to talk to the idiots, perswade them to step down form power or step into line AND IF NESSISSARY to Kick them from the server!

IF you know how organize a speicalize squad and emply some tactics you would only have to put effort into getting the specific squad leader kit AND THE ASSETS WOULD BE YOURS.

[BeerHunter]

I did read it. Very interesting ideas...could really improve the game play of PRM is some areas.

The reality however is that I know of only 3 or 4 servers that are populated on a regular basis with enough players to consider accommodating an arrangement like this and the intelligence (ability to play PRM the way it's meant to be played) of players on these servers varies from outstanding to "whose the smacktard in the BH"

As was suggested earlier though , a separate game play mode that could be released to select server operators who could lock down the server once in a while for only the dedicated purists to play would be make it viable. It would also make a MAGNIFICENT competitive mode of game play.

I think if you strive for too much realisms and organized game play you discourage people form participating. Just look at the numbers playing Armed Assault on line (supposedly the ultimate in realism in a FPS). I think PRM fares better in player count.

The developers have done a damn fine job of introducing enough realism in to an arcadish FPS to satisfy the needs of the majority of PRM players while still flooding the battle field with action.

Personally I would like to see something along this lines. Would add an estra touch of organization and realism. Unfortunately , I don't think the majority of recreational players would fare well with it.

Do it and prove me wrong!!

[Hawk_345]

There are alot of "what if's" in this idea, it is a very good idea, i really do like it but, like most sugestions you need to look at it from the online point of view, will there always be enough players to use this system properly, will they actually work if there are people who wont/will not play like a team, and along with that there are game engine restrictions and also not everyone has voip and there is a limit to the amount of squads. the safest way to implement this would most likely be a diferent game mode, but if that is done it will most likely, like all others, be taken over by normal conquest or ***.

If this was a perfect world it would be magnificent for pr, but in this world it probably would not work, but then again if done in some diferent way who knows.

[Masaq]

The problem I have with the OP suggestion is that it doesn't encourage squads to stick together.

Imagine you're in a infantry squad, and you get pinned down by an enemy tank. You need something to hit that tank with, and fast. The HAT kits are taken, but you notice there's a friendly Apache on the deck back at main base. No-one else on the team has taken it, no-one is waiting for it - perfect; you can spawn someone back at base and have your own chopper flying support for your squadmates, right?

Ah, but you're now limited to a single pilot. You can't have a gunner as you are, so you and a squadmate have to leave your SL's squad to form a new, pilot squad. You do so, start spooling up and get ready for takeoff.

You need to know where that tank is, so you ask the commander (assuming there is one), but he's not got a mic. You ask your former SL in teamchat, but he replies with "by that building north of my location" which isn't much help. So your effectiveness as a chopper is limited because you can't get decent intel from the ground.

At the same time, your old squad is hampered- not only do they have an enemy tank on their location, but they're now down to 4 members, barely enough to fend off the tank's accompanying troops on foot.

[General Dragosh]

Id like to add something to the Rally points

For Inf. when SL requests a RP u have to "build" one with the shovel from the requested PR which is a pile of bags or something.

For Armour......hmmm....the RP should look like a small trailer........has to be built with SPANNERS !

And air.........this one has no logic but.........a small controll tower, of a little bunker with radios in it or the RP is a requestable non drivable Radio car or trailer ?

...but i want to see a buildable Inf. RP - more teamplay !

[Outlawz7]

I think, the idea behind RPs is, that everyone gathered on that spot and threw their stuff together.

[General Dragosh]

I think, the idea behind RPs is, that everyone gathered on that spot and threw their stuff together.

Logical, but i still think there should be some time after the SL pushes the "Create PR"

[KP]

Off topic: Is the "cunning plan" phrase off Black Adder?

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

FINALY KP, the question that needed to be asked! THe answer ofcourse is "YAR" and not "NAR"...............

*watch this space for a responce to Masaq"

[gumball]

This is a really good idea. It would DEF love to see this ingame. It would take away from all the noobs trying to test every weapon and vehicle and leave them with a certain division where they can only choose X ammount of weapons, which will make them practice that squad for the x amount of rounds/games and will ultimatly train them. With this idea you can actually have all 4 jets on kashan together or all the armor together squads together and all the infantry together so the commander can coordinate attacks and not have to call on a helicopter in an inf squad to pick him up and so on or not have a helicopter for 1 individual side. It will make things so orgnized...please devs, think about this idea because it is a damn good one.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

[quote=""'[R-PUB"]Masaq;462812']The problem I have with the OP suggestion is that it doesn't encourage squads to stick together.

Imagine you're in a infantry squad, and you get pinned down by an enemy tank. You need something to hit that tank with, and fast. The HAT kits are taken, but you notice there's a friendly Apache on the deck back at main base. No-one else on the team has taken it, no-one is waiting for it - perfect; you can spawn someone back at base and have your own chopper flying support for your squadmates, right?

Ah, but you're now limited to a single pilot. You can't have a gunner as you are, so you and a squadmate have to leave your SL's squad to form a new, pilot squad. You do so, start spooling up and get ready for takeoff.

You need to know where that tank is, so you ask the commander (assuming there is one), but he's not got a mic. You ask your former SL in teamchat, but he replies with "by that building north of my location" which isn't much help. So your effectiveness as a chopper is limited because you can't get decent intel from the ground.

At the same time, your old squad is hampered- not only do they have an enemy tank on their location, but they're now down to 4 members, barely enough to fend off the tank's accompanying troops on foot.[/quote]





But it is only when responsibilities are clearly shown and known by all players that when you fail you know exactly why and who failed. From this people can learn and improve and this only! You must know exactly what went wrong and why for you to learn from your mistakes.

In your example, if things remained the same (2 pilots flew the apache), you coudl have aquired an Apache. You would have won as a squad (destroyed tank) but would your team have won also. Beucase you aquired this equipement Your responsibility would have been to provide antiarmour support.
High lighting the very problems I stated above, your responsibility would not have been clearly known.
Your ability to operate effectively would have been only has high as how skilled the pilot of the apache was. But becuase it was just a random player in your squad who spwned at the main base, the chances are low.



What you have described happens time and time again in PR (both not having specific support when you need it and random squads operating random peices of equipement to not proper effect) and will continue and IT SUCKS.


IN this case ( IF this system was in place) you needed antitank support but the TEAM HAD NONE. You cant blame yourself because you were an infantry squad and it was not your responsibility to take tanks out. But can you blame every single other player on your team. Well you can but no one will care AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Next time you play the chance on an anitarmour squad being operated is exactly the same but just as importantly the chance of it being operate EFFECTIVELY is just the same.

This is because the person who failed cannot identified, none can take the responsibility.


SO how do we improve the chance of both and thus give you antiarmour support when you need it – we make sure in future the person who failed is obvious, this forces responsibility upon him whether he likes it or not and if he chooses (something that did not exist before) he can attempt to learn from his mistake?

This feature, as I said before makes responsibility obvious and as a result

[quote="gumball""]make them *players* practice that squad for the x amount of rounds/games and will ultimatly train them.[/quote]

After a while of this feature being in place, the chance that when you call for anti armour support to assist you, exists will be close to 90% and even better the chance that it is operate effectively will be many many time greater (becuase of above reason).

You win as a team because you work together as a team. BUT you also loose as a team because you failed to work together as a team. You don’t win the round as a single squad but as many. Therefore the emphasis must be also significantly on many and not just a single squad.

The reality however is that I know of only 3 or 4 servers that are populated on a regular basis with enough players to consider accommodating an arrangement like this and the intelligence (ability to play PRM the way it's meant to be played) of players on these servers varies from outstanding to "whose the smacktard in the BH"

Entiely correct. But 3 to 4 populated enough servers is all that is needed. When i starting playing PR there was raely 1 full and often never, but PR stilled ruled. PR does not need 10 fully populated servers to be fun. 3 or 4 is enough to support ALL the outstanding players.
While smacktards will still exist:


PLAYERS HAVE NO CHOISE WHETHER THEY RECIEVE THE RESPONSBILITY OR NOT AND THAT ALL PLAYERS ON THE TEAM KNOW THEY HAVE IT.

1) Many smacktards will not will not understand how to get specialized kits.

2) Most smacktards that do will be under the command of an SL who does know how to operate the specialized kit squad he is in. THerefore he will ensure the smacktards does not totaly fck around and if he does, he will get kicked and will be unable to aquire more of that specialzied equipemetn but will also die quickly with it (a loss but better than constant stream of retarded tank drivers).

3) In the unfortunate event of a smacktard aquiring a Specialized SL kit, there still will be another spare same type SL kit so an ounstanding player can form up a new but of the same specialized kit. So as a 1 man squd he will fail at operating any type of specialized kit (die) and if nessessary you can kick him from the server. BUt the chance of this senario i low an any way, the other team has the same chances of having all of the above, SO LIVE WITH IT!

[Outlawz7]

2) Most smacktards that do will be under the command of an SL who does know how to operate the specialized kit squad he is in. THerefore he will ensure the smacktards does not totaly fck around and if he does, he will get kicked and will be unable to aquire more of that specialzied equipemetn but will also die quickly with it (a loss but better than constant stream of retarded tank drivers).

Nowadays, SLs who figure out the kit limiting, will just grab a sniper and drive off alone in a Vodnik/Humvee/Nanjing

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Nowadays, SLs who figure out the kit limiting, will just grab a sniper and drive off alone in a Vodnik/Humvee/Nanjing

I play on the TG server and sometimes the IGI and 95% ofthe time i find my self in a squad where the SL has an SL kit or is looking for one.

SO HELL< the squaud leader kit and rally point system has its problems as so will this system . BUT the difference they make to tactics, namely gamplay is astronomical.

There will always be smacktards and saying this system will not work because of them is naive.


This sysyem is no more complicated than the CO system of object construction. ALthough i do realize that more people, namely squad leaders will have to use it (therefore lesser degree of experience should be required), the extent to which is simpiliar makes its complexity acceptable for the use by SLs.


P.S i am sure i stated earlier than only SLs can request SL kits. I am not sure if this is possible but if main flags allowed the requesting of SL kits only, i believe it would be possible.
Therefore this totaly negates you argument about smacktard SLs requesting sniper kits becuase they would not be able to.

[Metis-M]

Many people played on 0.5 then try 0.6 has left PR, there are some from BF try the mod, so this Mod have for now enough people, but if such suggstions like this and here
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/t26625.html
would be realized:


This Mod will end as OPK.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

You are correct, the Mod as you know it, Metis-M, WILL END.


It would be pleasant to hear from a DEV again. Eggmans comment a month ago ish was short and sweet. Your use of your right to reserve comment is impressive but endless debate between players is uterly pointless if the general DEV opinion is that the idea cannot work or would not improve PR.

So to any DEV, i think we all would be gratefull if you could input your opinion and just as importantly some fact conserning the kit limiting system. SOMETHING, ANYTHING>.......please

[nicoX]

What is the official thought by the DEV about this idea? Is it something we will expect sometime?

[maijamehilainen]

If it is, i also think that there cant be any random squads without any spesific job.
For example if there is three tanks available on the map, in order to operate all of the tanks there should be three tank squads (max. num. of members 3 in tank squad), if tank being destroyed all of the tank squad members should spawn at the tank spawn location as crewman to wait tank to spawn, otherwise the tank is their rally point, same thing whit other squads. Only squads that needs rally points are the different types of infantry squads (sniper squad, special operations, basic infantry). This would speed up things and reduce the frustration of getting vehicles. Example, if you cant make a tank squad , you aint getting a tank and thats it, all of the tanks has been issued already to another squad so you can start thinkin something else. I think only problem whit this would be the communication between different squads if you would need support from other kind of squad. Maybe there should be multiple voip channels in the game to call for support from other spesific squad types. also the value of the commander would rise up. Maybe even smaller teams includin different types of squads in the team would be helpful to commander, might be too complicated tough, depending how it would be done.

[El_Vikingo]

You are correct, the Mod as you know it, Metis-M, WILL END.



So to any DEV, i think we all would be gratefull if you could input your opinion and just as importantly some fact conserning the kit limiting system. SOMETHING, ANYTHING>.......please

God give us a sign!

[fuzzhead]

prety sure the BF2 squad system is not editable...

i mean its a great idea i support it completely but dont think any mod has had any luck in changing squad system yet...

that being said, we can already do this! I encourage everyone playing, that when they create a squad they make the name of the squad to what your role is!

So use your clan tag for the first part ie: IGI, TG, TF21, WAC, etc (if you dont have a clan, just make something up, make sure its no more than 4 charcters).

For the second part, put in what you will be doing that round, and dont deviate from that role. ie:

INF = Infantry Squad, versatile can do everything.
MECINF = Mechanized Infantry Squad (a squad that is supported by APCs)
AIRINF = Airbourne Infantry Squad (a squad that primarily uses helicopters to insert/extract)
SUPORT = Infantry that support the commander building assets and defending. can also switch to specific task such as AA or AT. should be no larger than 4 players so as not to depopulate the main infantry squads.
SNIPER = sniper team, MAXIMUM 2 players, should be communication with teh commander, should not be 1337, but rather should be skilled in target prioritization and weapons handling.
APC = APC squad, should be supporting infantry and not just parking the APC in a ditch.
ARMOR = Tank Squad
AIRATK = Attack aircraft (Jets or attack heli)
AIRTRANS = Transport aircraft squad. Only allow pilots of other transport helicopters in this squad. Do NOT allow blackhawk gunners as its mostly useless role (for now).