Brainstorm: Ways to make players more fearful of dying.

[Rg]

dude you are so crazy Rg! when you get wounded have to wait 20 secs then die and have to wait 30 that is long enough.

If I wanted to play a forever waiting game I would go back to Americas Army

The problem is YOUR crazy DEDMON, lol.

That 30-45sec. wait was nothing. It goes by very fast. The problem is that still doesn’t give the attacking team enough time to act out a decent strategy.

You still have to rush in to get the job done, you can’t move in slowly and methodically, because they will continue to spawn on you.

BTW, if your wounded, find a medic.

[Rg]

I didn't fear death anymore than I did when there were 15 second spawns.

Because that was only a small improvement over 15sec spawns. To me that was still a very short wait.
If you have to wait 60+sec, you'll play cautiously and think about what you did wrong when your waiting to respawn.

[dawdler]

The point isn't ONLY that you fear death more, its to make it more realistic for the attackers. In real life, you have to supress and flank with fire superioriety with well aimed shots from a distance. With quick respawns, those kills dont even mean much. It makes it alot harder to advance realistically.

But that's a matter of being able to respawn in the field, not respawning quickly.

I think you are missing something though... Who are you going to supress or flank if there is no one to fight? We arent exactly talking division size battles here... The respawns are there so it actually is a battle: Ignore the fact you keep killing the same person, its just more reinforcement.

It wouldnt hurt if the respawn system was a tad more complicated of course... Numerical superiority within like 4x the flag capping area should for example mean no one enemy can spawn there.

That way instead of using stupid long respawn times, you just has to stick with it and get more friendlies in until you outnumber the enemy... Then you can move in to the flag without fear of enemy reinforcements... Unless you loose the battle

One have to balance those ranges though, or it wont be big enough combat zones between them (and spawning at flags is useless, lol).

[Armand61685]

But that's a matter of being able to respawn in the field, not respawning quickly.

I think you are missing something though... Who are you going to supress or flank if there is no one to fight? We arent exactly talking division size battles here... The respawns are there so it actually is a battle: Ignore the fact you keep killing the same person, its just more reinforcement.

It wouldnt hurt if the respawn system was a tad more complicated of course... Numerical superiority within like 4x the flag capping area should for example mean no one enemy can spawn there.

That way instead of using stupid long respawn times, you just has to stick with it and get more friendlies in until you outnumber the enemy... Then you can move in to the flag without fear of enemy reinforcements... Unless you loose the battle

One have to balance those ranges though, or it wont be big enough combat zones between them (and spawning at flags is useless, lol).

Dawdler has a point... 45 seconds is a good compromise.

[Rg]

The point is that if you die, you should be respawning back at base camp or at least one of your other occupied control points.

Before the round starts, both sides have territory that’s controlled by them. At each of those control points should be soldiers defending those areas, but since we don’t have soldiers doing that for obvious reasons, this is where respawns come into play.

When you die and respawn you should be thinking about taking control of one of those soldier’s lives; to move up to the front lines and defend the base that is under attack.

Now, since a respawn system isn’t in this mod (yet, hopefully), the only way to compensate for this idea is to lengthen the spawn time dramatically. You have to compensate for the amount of time it should take a soldier to get to the front lines when they are traveling from a previously occupied base or base camp. Not sprinting to the front lines, cautiously advancing to the front lines.

[dawdler]

But it can never be realistic. Never ever.

In an average game there is 32 players. 16 players per team. Remove non-active ground personal (flyers, idiots, whatever) and you have like 10 real enemies left. 10 enemies on the whole freakin battlefield.

If you increase respawn to 45 seconds, the action will decrease significantly as much more of those 10 people will be out of the action.

I dont know about you, but I *WANT* an action filled enviroment with countless of enemies to fight so I can have a *FUN* and *ADRENALINE PUMPING* experience every time I drop into the battlefield. Being suppressed or staring at the sky for long periods isnt very fun.

[USAF-Marshall]

Well, one solution, although not a very good one, could be to remove most of the vehicles to a fraction of what would normally be there, or make it so that the option is only available for 64 player maps.... Just a thought.....

[Dethleffs]

Im all for more "being shot" effects and more bleeding, respawn times in the range of 60 secs is just making me smoke more cigarettes. Maybe increase the respawn time to smoke one cigarette -5 mins- and have people fear real death by smoking related diseases :O

sorry for the black humor.. I totally agree with Dawdler on the point that in small servers the field maybe completely devoid of enemies with longer respawn times. Another thing i would like to see less control points or option of spawning only at main base which i think would propagate the forming of frontlines instead of enemies incoming from all directions, what you see in vanilla all the time.. Annoys me to death if you ask me, capping a flag and having to return to a previously capped flag just seeing the flag you just capped being recapped ... waarg...

regards,

Deth

[fuzzhead]

i just came back 1v1 on the gloryhoundz server which is 30 seconds.... it was not boring or non-action filled.

it was VERY tense and adrenaline pumping... nerve racking even hehe

[dawdler]

Another thing i would like to see less control points or option of spawning only at main base which i think would propagate the forming of frontlines instead of enemies incoming from all directions, what you see in vanilla all the time.. Annoys me to death if you ask me, capping a flag and having to return to a previously capped flag just seeing the flag you just capped being recapped ... waarg...

I wouldnt mind that, much better than increasing respawn times.

Or one could just increase the times based on spawning peeps.
You could respawn at will at your mainbase (0 sec respawn if you wish). Or you could wait some 15 seconds to respawn at a forward position, HOWEVER everyone else spawning get added up to the time (the 4th guy would have to wait until the 3 before has spawned, ie some 45 seconds). So if a position is about get overrun by 5 enemies, an entire squad wont just magically appear in the next spawn wave.

Not sure one can alter it in BF2 though.

[Dethleffs]

I have to admit that i havent had the chance yet to play with longer respwn times in PRMM, but what i can remember from playing red orchestra (ro_warsaw with a respawn time of 45 secs) it was annoying as hell.

[Maj.b00bz]

I like my idea of hooking tunnel vision into game events. Since you can never really fear dying in a computer game, another penalty must be real. Not being able to see effectively is one way to stop Rambo from charging in and getting himself killed.

The theory is tunnel vision (whatever can be modeled) should start once a player gets stressed. It would increase to the point where the player can no longer really be effective. It can be controlled and even prevented be a host of positive factors.

Your tunnel vision increases when:

You are wounded
Separated
Being shot at (arty included or a separate category)
Vehicle damage less than 75%
low on ammo
in close proximity to the enemy (enemy vehicles penalize more)
have a minus score

You decrease or prevent tunnel vision by:

Being unwounded
Being in close proximity to teammates
fully loaded
Vehicle over 75%
Being in a squad and close to members (bonus for Sqd Leader)
Being far away from enemy (friendly vehicles give you an additional boost)
Having a positive score with bonuses at 25, 50, 75 and 100+ points


So you're out there on the map and are lone wolfing it. You run head first into the enemy and before you know it you can't see scheisse - You get knifed by a guy who is with his squad and his squad leader, who has a positive score and is unwounded.

You can prevent tunnel vision altogether by simply working together and not getting shot (i.e. using teamwork and due caution)

The positive and negative factors can cancel each other out. You won't see the effects until things go bad. Then you can always retreat to get out of the untenable situation. You're sight will rapidly return as you put some real estate between you and the baddies. Regroup and then re-engage.

A player with 100 points is obviously kicking *** and has transcended the limits of normal humans. The point score alone should mitigate the effects. In short anyone can be a hero. You just better have the skillz to back it up.

Couple the above with a good 30-second respawn timer and you've got a good system that prevents Rambo-esque behavior.

[fuzzhead]

maj boobz i like that idea greatly

wounded & being shot at would probably be the easiest and most useful way to implement this tunnel vision effect into the mod.

although you do bring up interseted point, if you are stranded, stress & fear could give you character tunnel vision and decrease fighting effectiveness. although i dont think it would be possible to code (at least not easily). and alot of people would probably have issues with it (snipers, spec ops players etc)

[dawdler]

Its a nice idea, though I think its a little TOO over the top in what causes the effect.

For example out of

You are wounded
Separated
Being shot at (arty included or a separate category)
Vehicle damage less than 75%
low on ammo
in close proximity to the enemy (enemy vehicles penalize more)
have a minus score

The last 3 doesnt make much sense at all. You are ALWAYS going to be low on ammo, you are ALWAYS going to be close to the enemy and you shouldnt be penalized further for the negative score as 99% of the time its not intended.

[Stargun]

But it can never be realistic. Never ever.

In an average game there is 32 players. 16 players per team. Remove non-active ground personal (flyers, idiots, whatever) and you have like 10 real enemies left. 10 enemies on the whole freakin battlefield.

If you increase respawn to 45 seconds, the action will decrease significantly as much more of those 10 people will be out of the action.

I dont know about you, but I *WANT* an action filled enviroment with countless of enemies to fight so I can have a *FUN* and *ADRENALINE PUMPING* experience every time I drop into the battlefield. Being suppressed or staring at the sky for long periods isnt very fun.

I AGREE 100%. Somehow we should connect the big, intense battle of really big armies with the relative small number of physical players.

I think one solution would be the following system:

1. We should calculate with the total size of the opposing armies, which is more or less closely related to the TICKETS each side have. With the reducing number of tickets your team have less possibility to get reinforcement.

2. The number of respawns should be limited on a PER BASE basis. The main base should have "unlimited" number of respawns (off course it's still limited by the tickets!). But the other bases should have different number of allowed respawns there (ie. a small base where a maximum number of 30 soldiers can be in reality will allow max. 30 respawns).

3. After one team gains control over a base, then the number of respawns allowed for that base wouldn't go to i.e. 30 right at the moment, but it should have to take LONG time to reach this maximum (approximately incrementing the number of allowed respawns for a given base by 1 per 30 seconds.)

This would be similar to the situation, when a platoon fights with the enemy, and after that takes control over the base. But in that moment, only the remained men in the platoon will be at the base, because the reinforcement will take much time to GET THERE from other bases. But if the remained men can hold this base for a given amount of time, that will mean, that the reinforcements "arrived", in that way, that another 1-2-3... more respawns are allowed for that base.

If the enemy troops attack a base and they kill a soldier, this soldier can choose to respawn right at the fight (this base), and the respawn will take in a SHORT peridod of time, maybe MAXIMUM 5 secs. But in that case, he caused the respawn number for that base decreased by one. If this number reaches zero, then NO OTHER soldiers are allowed to respawn at that base, and the attacker troops win by taking the base. (= the total number of soldiers at that base are depleted)

I'll agree with dawdler, that increasing the respawn time will be MUCH MORE annoying, and will slow down the game.

Maybe the number of respawns PER PLAYER can be limited as well, but I think that can't be so effective.

[Stargun]

Or I have another idea.

Maybe the number of soldiers PER BASE PER KIT should be limited (Except the main base, where anyone can spawn with any chosen kit)

The pilots (or special forces) are only allowed to spawn at the main base.

So maybe a small base can have a total number of 30 soldier respawn points, which are divided in 5 classes: max. 20 soldiers with ASSAULT kit, max. 5 AT soldiers, and max. 2 MEDICS, and 2 SUPPLIERS, and only 1 engineer, without any SPEC.OPS.

It that case that situation wouldn't happen which I've seen usually on the servers, when 1-2 tanks trying to get a base, and all of the respawning enemy players choose to be AT class to eliminate the threat in 5 seconds

If max. 5 AT soldiers are allowed to spawn at that base, then these soldiers MUST stay alive to eliminate the threat. And If they run out off ammo, it wont't help "just to die, and respawn with full of ammunition". If you respawn as as AT, then only 4 more players can respawn at this base as an AT. (After each AT respawn only 3-2-1-0!) So the AT soldiers HAVE TO COOPERATE with the supply soldiers, and the medics, instead of choosing to die fast and just respawn.

If connected with a SHORT respawn time (max. 5 sec.) a bunch of non-experienced soldiers can "eat up" the "slots" for AT respawns in not more than 30 second for that base, and after that if they die and fail to eliminate the armor, the other soldiers at the base are helpless against the attacking armor. So you only should choose to be an AT guy, if you can eliminate the target, otherways you're just wasting the resources.

In that case, when you're dead, and trying to choose where to respawn, and which kit to choose, if you click on a respawn point, then only the kits which still have free "slots" for that base can be choosen, the others should be "locked".

If a really small base can have only 5 assault soldiers and nothing more, then the only possibility to be 6 AT guys there to GO THERE from other big bases, or from the main base.

P.S. Maybe the number of "virtual soldiers" or "respawn slots" can be reduced by an artillery strike... If the commander hits the barracks at the given base by the arty, this will "kill" the "virtual reinforcement soldiers" in such a way, that it will decrease the allowed respawn slots for that base (only for a certain amount of time, after that the number of slots will increase as mentioned earlier - only if the base hasn't taken by the enemy)

[dawdler]

I AGREE 100%. Somehow we should connect the big, intense battle of really big armies with the relative small number of physical players.

I think one solution would be the following system:

1. We should calculate with the total size of the opposing armies, which is more or less closely related to the TICKETS each side have. With the reducing number of tickets your team have less possibility to get reinforcement.

Bad idea, as it would completely wreck the entire idea of slower gameplay. If this was implement, all that would matter is speed speed speed cause the one playing the underdog will already have lost. I dont think they should be gimped.

2. The number of respawns should be limited on a PER BASE basis. The main base should have "unlimited" number of respawns (off course it's still limited by the tickets!). But the other bases should have different number of allowed respawns there (ie. a small base where a maximum number of 30 soldiers can be in reality will allow max. 30 respawns).

3. After one team gains control over a base, then the number of respawns allowed for that base wouldn't go to i.e. 30 right at the moment, but it should have to take LONG time to reach this maximum (approximately incrementing the number of allowed respawns for a given base by 1 per 30 seconds.)

Outposts having "supply" like this is better, assuming its regenerated the entire round (of course it can be capped at a certain number). That way newly captured flags would be more important to defend too, to let them regenerate some "strength, sort of speak.

[Rg]

You can't have limited spawns though. Faster players will ruin it for the rest.