Why the vehicle hatred?

Rg · Post by Rg » 2005-12-12 21:29

A few of us here explained that something needs to be done for it not to be such a big issue. Changing the spawn times of armor, no repairing on the spot, ect....

The problem with the AT class right now is it’s absolutely useless against infantry. Nobody wants to be this class because of that reason. Who wants to be an AT when you have to sit around doing nothing until another vehicle appears?

Honestly, I would say bring back the MP5 or whatever the gun was before. I’m sure it’s not very accurate at long ranges, but it should be more powerful/accurate then a freaking pistol. This way you can at least defend yourself or kill someone that isn’t too far away.

If people want a good accurate long distance rifle, they shouldn’t pick this. But if you can actually have a decent weapon, people will actually CHOOSE this kit instead of just picking it when a tank/vehicle is near and they are about to respawn.

*On a side note*
I don’t know if anything can be done for when firing the AT, but you shouldn’t be able to do it within a second. Use OFP for an example, it takes time to equip it and aim.

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2005-12-12 23:28

dawdler wrote:How can infantry combat be corrupting the mod? My guess is that in real life, the infantry fight quite alot.

All I want is some infantry maps that arent saturated by tanks or aircrafts.

Regarding the Blackhawk, why does it have to be armed? Being the internet milita that I am, I just looked up a site on it, and lo and behold, a Seahawk (what DICE tried to do I believe) transport landing on an aircraft carrier *without miniguns*!!! Nice real life picture or amazingly unrealistic cg work?
But it would be nicer if a AT rocket took down a helo in 1 shot period rather than removing the helo, yes. It worked good in Joint Operations (I guess you gasp at that, seeing what kind of arcade game it is, and I liked it!). Portable AA missiles wouldnt be too bad either, that'll really give the scare to those minigunners.

Sidenote: I was a rabid OFP fan. I bought the european version the first day of release and yes I even played that version online (despite it being unplayable). The only game I've ever been in a clan for. Ah, those where the days...

I didn't say infantry combat corrupts the mod, I said ONLY infantry combat corrupts the mod. This mod is about realistic aspects of ground air and to a lesser extent, sea warfare. All military entities will be represented. The solution to our problems is making tanks and such more precious and as an asset and liability. I say, if a tank is destroyed, then the whole team should lose 5 tickets.

Since your such a OFP fan, how could you be so against vehicles then? OFP was full of vehicles mixed in with infantry; get over it dude, vehicles are here to stay. If you don't like vehicles, go play AA.

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » 2005-12-12 23:37

Armand61685 wrote:I didn't say infantry combat corrupts the mod, I said ONLY infantry combat corrupts the mod. This mod is about realistic aspects of ground air and to a lesser extent, sea warfare. All military entities will be represented. The solution to our problems is making tanks and such more precious and as an asset and liability. I say, if a tank is destroyed, then the whole team should lose 5 tickets.

Since your such a OFP fan, how could you be so against vehicles then? OFP was full of vehicles mixed in with infantry; get over it dude, vehicles are here to stay. If you don't like vehicles, go play AA.

Vehicles play a bigger role in OFP than BF2. Try getting even a quarter of the way across one of the maps on foot and you'll see what I mean. You spend your time riding into battle in vehicles, then actually fighting on foot most of the time (unless you're in an MBT or Attack chopper or something). The view distance in OFP is larger than the maps in BF2.

Poofyfinger · Post by **Poofyfinger** » 2005-12-13 01:20

I've played on the CSM server a few times and we've all agreed when its like 3 vs 3 to have no vehicles except transports (Vodnik & HMMWV). When it gets populated, then we introduce light armour and tanks.

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2005-12-13 01:44

Poofyfinger wrote:I've played on the CSM server a few times and we've all agreed when its like 3 vs 3 to have no vehicles except transports (Vodnik & HMMWV). When it gets populated, then we introduce light armour and tanks.

Yes, that's what we've been doing. But a certain number of people kept complaining. Bah, F em.

Lifetaker · Post by **Lifetaker** » 2005-12-13 03:09

As for some constructive criticism... Maybe longer spawn times for armor is a good idea. I do like the carcasses of vehicles staying longer as they have been. I'm not even opposed to more points for taking down armor, because it is a bit boring to spawn as AT just to take out one piece of armor and then be pretty useless until another one shows. Though Flyboy brings up a good point. What use are points on an unranked server? The important thing IS the victory of your team, however, everyone wants to have fun doing this so maybe the re-addition of a PDW like the MP5, etc. would be a good fix for now. Why not? The weapons are there, and an MP5, Bizon and so forth are not really much larger or heavier than a sidearm so it doesn't distract from the realism too much.

dawdler · Post by **dawdler** » 2005-12-13 07:20

Armand61685 wrote:I didn't say infantry combat corrupts the mod, I said ONLY infantry combat corrupts the mod. This mod is about realistic aspects of ground air and to a lesser extent, sea warfare. All military entities will be represented. The solution to our problems is making tanks and such more precious and as an asset and liability. I say, if a tank is destroyed, then the whole team should lose 5 tickets.

Since your such a OFP fan, how could you be so against vehicles then? OFP was full of vehicles mixed in with infantry; get over it dude, vehicles are here to stay. If you don't like vehicles, go play AA.

And just how did you gather I'm against vehicles? I want MORE vehicles on the appropriate maps.

OFP was full of vehicles, yes. But it had a great mission editor. Instead of always having conventional teams against each other (if the US has a tank, MEC has to have a tank, etc) you could set out on an infantry vs vehicle mission. Or assault a beach with just infantry vs infantry. Or engage in a massive tank battle. Imagination was the limit and diversity was the key.

TII · Post by **TII** » 2005-12-13 21:36

I have a couple of problems with armor as it currently exists in game. First of all I don't know of any middle eastern countries that operate the T-90 series of MBTs, much less having them in any significant numbers. M1A1/2s would have a field day with the earlier series.

Second, just last night on the Gloryhoundz server I AT'd an Anti Air gun from above only to have the driver hop out and mow me down with his AK-101 before I could even reload my next rocket.

Also, the SRAW is not an Anti-Tank weapon.

I would say there should be a crewman class to operate armored vehicles and aircraft, and arm them with nothing but a pistol and/or maybe an M4 such as they would get in real life. Possibly replace the Engineer with this and give his characteristics too the AT class (mines and shotgun).

I don't mind the armor but it just seems silly with the extent that has been gone to make the infantry aspect real and armor still be so arcady, in my opinion of course.

Gunfighter34ID · Post by **Gunfighter34ID** » 2005-12-13 22:09

I have a few problems with the armor in the mod.

1) The mod is called Project Reality. In "reality" tanks aren't crewed by two men, one of whom operates the turret, drives, and acts as commander and the other who just sits around playing with the AAMG. Unless you can find a way to model in a separate driver, gunner, and commander (loader would be superfluous in game terms) and make it so you can't operate the vehicle without all three positions filled, leave it out.

2) In "reality", tanks which have been plastered by HEAT warheads can't be instantly repaired to factory-new condition by one guy with a wrench or a square box which happens to fall out of the sky nearby.

3) In "reality" a new tank doesn't spawn at a given location twenty seconds after another tank is destroyed.

4) In "reality" there's not just one "class" of soldier who has anti-tank capability. Any soldier in an infantry squad--except for maybe the automatic rifleman--might be found with an M136.

5) The armor, because of the way it exists in the game, causes class-hopping, which is anathema to "reality".

I would suggest the following fixes:

IF YOU ARE GOING TO KEEP THE TANKS:

1) Don't allow vehicles to be repaired. If they get hit, so be it. Welcome to "reality".

2) Make a set number of vehicle respawns. For example, each side gets a grand total of 2 tanks. When the second one gets blown up, game over.

3) Make a CVC class and give him a sidearm and nothing else. Give him the exclusive ability to work the vehicles. Take away his ability to cap so he can't abuse the privilege.

4) Give every class but "support" an AT-4 (and yes, I know there's no AT-4 in the game). Give all the infantry classes one AT rocket. If you can find a way to make it disposable so that they can fire it once and then lose it, that's ideal.

5) If (4) isn't possible, give the AT guy an M4. Sure, then everyone will play AT, and your new problem will be everyone using the AT rockets like they're sniper rifles.

Better yet, just get rid of the tanks and other AFVs except on certain maps, and even then only allow them on the large versions of the maps. That gets rid of your tank problem and your ATGM abuse problem in one fell swoop.

I don't see any way that armor in this game can be more than an arcade affectation. You're on the way to making a halfway decent infantry shooter, but the tanks and jets are really just kiddie toys.

DAWG · Post by **DAWG** » 2005-12-13 22:15

Don't forget that PRMM stands for Project Reality Mini Mod, this is not the final or even the first full build. The mod in it's current state is simply a recruiting tool designed to give the community an insight into the PR project, it lets you see the kind of changes you should expect in the full build. The team are very talented and have stated in numerous threads, that armor, aircraft and non infantry assests will be changed for the better. Just be patient and wait for the full build, people seem to have forgotten this basic concept and are becoming impatient, even though the PR team has gone far beyond any other mod, by providing something considerably better than BF2 vanilla for us to play on for the time being. All this work takes time, so either help the team to recruit talented people to speed up the work that needs to be done, or calm your jets and enjoy what you have already while waiting for the full mod.

Post by **requiem** » 2005-12-13 22:17

Well the "kiddie toys" are staying, like said in another similar thread at the moment;

- This is not a simulator by definition (OFP exists for this)
- We wish to retain gameplay.
- BF2 was built around vehicles.

Hope this explains a little more, cheers.

TII · Post by **TII** » 2005-12-13 23:55

I don't think anyone is negatively critcizing the mod, just trying to add suggestions. I've been playing this mod every chance I get and no longer touch BF2 vanilla hardly. I'm used to Falcon 4, so I like things real.

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2005-12-14 00:25

Gunfighter34ID wrote:I have a few problems with the armor in the mod.

1) The mod is called Project Reality. In "reality" tanks aren't crewed by two men, one of whom operates the turret, drives, and acts as commander and the other who just sits around playing with the AAMG. Unless you can find a way to model in a separate driver, gunner, and commander (loader would be superfluous in game terms) and make it so you can't operate the vehicle without all three positions filled, leave it out.

2) In "reality", tanks which have been plastered by HEAT warheads can't be instantly repaired to factory-new condition by one guy with a wrench or a square box which happens to fall out of the sky nearby.

3) In "reality" a new tank doesn't spawn at a given location twenty seconds after another tank is destroyed.

4) In "reality" there's not just one "class" of soldier who has anti-tank capability. Any soldier in an infantry squad--except for maybe the automatic rifleman--might be found with an M136.

5) The armor, because of the way it exists in the game, causes class-hopping, which is anathema to "reality".

I would suggest the following fixes:

IF YOU ARE GOING TO KEEP THE TANKS:

1) Don't allow vehicles to be repaired. If they get hit, so be it. Welcome to "reality".

2) Make a set number of vehicle respawns. For example, each side gets a grand total of 2 tanks. When the second one gets blown up, game over.

3) Make a CVC class and give him a sidearm and nothing else. Give him the exclusive ability to work the vehicles. Take away his ability to cap so he can't abuse the privilege.

4) Give every class but "support" an AT-4 (and yes, I know there's no AT-4 in the game). Give all the infantry classes one AT rocket. If you can find a way to make it disposable so that they can fire it once and then lose it, that's ideal.

5) If (4) isn't possible, give the AT guy an M4. Sure, then everyone will play AT, and your new problem will be everyone using the AT rockets like they're sniper rifles.

Better yet, just get rid of the tanks and other AFVs except on certain maps, and even then only allow them on the large versions of the maps. That gets rid of your tank problem and your ATGM abuse problem in one fell swoop.

I don't see any way that armor in this game can be more than an arcade affectation. You're on the way to making a halfway decent infantry shooter, but the tanks and jets are really just kiddie toys.

You have a really negative tone in this reply. Cheer up.

rsgx · Post by **rsgx** » 2005-12-14 00:45

PRMM is a lot better than BF2 with the tank/infantry balance. Its a heck of a lot faster to kill a tank in PRMM than it is in normal BF2. Balances the game out a lot more, much less spawn camping vehicles because of that.

Tychandrus · Post by **Tychandrus** » 2005-12-14 02:43

To fix the unrealism of vehicles spawning out of thin air the way they do in Battlefield 2, you would find a solution in another game called Act of War. When you place an order for a vehicle in that game, they are not built, they are instead ferried to a landing pad by air lift and deployed accordingly.

However, this kind of addition to PRMM would be aesthetic at best, and thus unnecessary, so changing vehicle spawning out of thin air for pure aesthetic reasons would be pointless, not to mention a waste of time.

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2005-12-14 03:12

Tychandrus wrote:To fix the unrealism of vehicles spawning out of thin air the way they do in Battlefield 2, you would find a solution in another game called Act of War. When you place an order for a vehicle in that game, they are not built, they are instead ferried to a landing pad by air lift and deployed accordingly.

However, this kind of addition to PRMM would be aesthetic at best, and thus unnecessary, so changing vehicle spawning out of thin air for pure aesthetic reasons would be pointless, not to mention a waste of time.

The vehicle spawning is abstract; just pretend it's not spawning out of thin air.

Tychandrus · Post by **Tychandrus** » 2005-12-14 03:48

That's would be my point, lad.

DAWG · Post by **DAWG** » 2005-12-14 05:38

I don't see any way that armor in this game can be more than an arcade affectation. You're on the way to making a halfway decent infantry shooter, but the tanks and jets are really just kiddie toys.

Why is it that so many people seem to miss the point of the battlefield franchise and in particular the PR mod. Battlefield was never meant to be a game about infantry, there are numerous other games out there that fulfill this requirement. If the devs take out all the vehicles ( which they have stated numerous times they will not ), you may as well change the mods name to Project Counterstrike. These threads are utterly pointless, if people would take the time to read posts by others, they would save themselves a lot of time and heart ache by realising this WILL NOT BE DONE. Live with it or play another game. It's getting real annoying every time you come to the forums and see someone else asking the devs to make a game just for them, based on counter strike gameplay. If that's what you want, then play Counterstrike, or enjoy PR for what it is, BF2 made as realistic as possible without totally changing the core of the game and waisting it for everyone. The engine just isn't designed to be used as a pure infantry game. If you don't yet know how to stop armor I suggest you practice. As for those who say the AT class is useless because you can't defend yourself, try playing as a team, the other guys in your squad will do their damndest to keep you alive, because you stop them getting chewed up by armor.

Tychandrus · Post by **Tychandrus** » 2005-12-14 05:53

DAWG, always the voice of reason.

What? I missed that, someone said you can't defend yourself as the Anti-Tank class? I feel insulted. I use that class quite extensively and it is armed with a very reliable pistol. If you don't know how to use it, well... I don't know how to help you. If your a compitent shot, then you can easily hold your own in a pinch, and it tends to give one a rewarding feeling to know he's held his own against an opponent armed with an assault rifle with nothing but a pistol.

Plus, you don't waste any rockets by using the pistol, so please quit insulting the pistol!

DEDMON5811 · Post by **DEDMON5811** » 2005-12-14 06:22

I dont know how this turned in to a thread about removing armor. I think I hate armor the most out of everyone here but I would not remove them from the game. I just wish that it was an option to turn it off on maps and or it took more than 1 player in a tank or apc whoring a flag to change the battle completely.