Project Reality Forums

Opening notes:
Hopefully I'll get some feedback and opinions on these statements and not have people discouraged from reading simply by the amount of text. Honestly people, no major solution made in history comes from an answer in less than 3 words. Just bear with me and maybe something good will come from this. Let's put our heads together and think in depth... Here goes...

Discussion:
I can't help but say i'm slightly disappointed with this. In all honesty, all this will promote is players becoming orientated towards being a "camper." as already mentioned in previous posts.

Before we deal with prone spamming and the rest of the issues currently being complained about we must understand that any human being capable of pulling a trigger can kill even the best trained soldier by chance and circumstance. It's a hard pill to swallow, but no man is invincible.

The reality of Project Reality:
The problem here in this game is that everyone wants to be a 1 man army. Granted that if skill and such does permit you to be the best player around, there still is a chance for you to get killed by an unconventional tactic.

Picture this: Your in a building, you have 5 other guys all looking in the same direction doing whatever they want (Currently is the way of PR.) everyone is firing at their own targets. You just so happen to be firing from a window nearby a door. At the same time the enemy just managed to approach the building your in undetected and enter the doorway to your right. You are not paying attention as your scoped in and looking at a target 200 yards away from you. The enemy enters in through the door to your right and blasts you away... Did you deserve it? Damn right.

So now that your dead and your pissed off at yourself and everyone else is like "wtf happened?" maybe, just maybe someone should have had some common sense to be like "Humm, maybe we should be trying to cover eachother" and let atleast 4 of the 6 other guys concentrate on dealing with outside targets and the other 2 guys covering the rest of the squad.

This mod is about teamwork, and seldomly do I see true infantry tactics utilized. Most of the time it's just a bunch of guys huddled around an SL doing what they can to stay alive. It's not structured in any manner other than the squad leader requesting specific kits to certain players. The idea is to go to an area and try to maintain a certain formation and certain people are expected to watch your flank and rear. But like I said, seldomly seen. And even more rare than that is where I had seen people developing fire teams where 1 group of guys remain prone while the other group moves up abit then they prone and rinse and repeat leap frog style each time trying to cover eachother the proper way. The good fellow that actually got the squad to perform that was lead by none other than fuzzhead when both of us were performing a mechanized infantry on Jabal Al Burj.

Medium to Long range combat:
With that said, the basis for all assault rifles should be along the guidelines of these principles in some manner. Attempting to fire at a range in excess of these guidelines in that particular stance is possible but chances of success are reduced.

Standard Assault Rifles: G3A3, L85A1, M16, and QBZ-95. (Both scoped and unscoped.)
Standing: Range 0-200(Max) yards. (1ft grouping at 200(Max) yards.)
Kneeling: Range 0-350(Max) yards. (1ft grouping at 300(Max) yards.)
Prone: Range 0-500(Max) yards. (1ft grouping at 500(Max) yards.)

Now, why I say a 1 foot grouping is that the basis for most if not all infantry tactics is to aim at the enemys chest. It is the largest target mass to strike. Most adult human beings have a chest width of atleast 1 foot (12 inches) wide or more. So as long as the rounds land within that 1 foot diameter circle from the center mass (Chest or heart area.) it's a good shot.

I myself own several weapons and assault rifles and these particular statistics are not outlandish. Reason being is that if your in the heat of combat your heart is racing, your breathing is heavy and you could very well be tired. Trying to keep your crosshairs on a target with these variables will make things difficult as your breathing, heartbeat, and the way your standing effects your weapons stability. The battlefield 2 engine does not have any "Weapon sway" and thats why you can point your mouse at something and have 100% precision after you just ran 1 mile.

Close range combat:
Also, a noted issue here in Project Reality is that basically CQB (Close Quarter Battle) is a shunned aspect of this mod even if you don't realize it. But in all honesty CQB is just naturally the most down and dirty gun experience any human being will ever go head to head with. There is nothing nice about it, nothing at all. Think about it, in the days of WW1 and WW2 people used to fix bayonets on the end of thier rifle and those occurances happened more often back then, than now. Like I said, it's dirty and it's personal. Your not just shooting at a shadowy figure in the distance, this is so close to the point that you can see facial characteristics. In reality enemies of war do get close enough to hear and smack talk eachother, there are videos of youtube on it.

The major issue Project Reality faces is that in CQB is that when you go to clear a room you should theoretically be "aiming or zoomed in" the idea is to have your weapon already shouldered and under control and advancing slowly with caution and also to maintain as much stability of the rifle as possible. For those that understand S.W.A.T. team or S.A.S. tactics understand the concept of "Double Tap". Meaning to fire 2 rounds to the center mass (Chest or heart area.) of the aggressor to nutralize the threat. If that isn't enough, you follow it up 1 more time with a shot to the head.

Ah, so do we see the problem? When you are aimed and zoomed in, when was the last time you had enough accuracy and control of your weapon to perform the "Double Tap" method while moving and advancing into a room? None? I thought so. That's Battlefield 2 and Project Reality's major fault. So rather than having this refined method of combat we've heard of or attempted to undertake, we instead now improvised a method of running and gunning in CQB. It's a must. Why? Because we all know damn well we can't hit jack while aiming and advancing.

Besides, don't get me going on the "Suppression Effect" in CQB. If it isn't obvious why everyone goes John Rambo style at this point is because we're all getting 1/2 blind to the point that we have to do it. There is no avoiding it. We shoot wildly in hopes to come out alive of a CQB engagement. However the "Suppression Effect" is currently being tweaked again and refined. Our last discussion about it was to get the "Suppression Effect" to trigger based upon how many shots land near you within a certain period of time rather than caused by a single shot. Also to the fact that hopefully this effect will not trigger in ranges close than 20 feet.

But one thing I know for sure is that with any modern assault rifle if you have the weapon shouldered, walking and aiming/zoomed in, you can have it strike a target at 100(Max) yards effectively. The only issue that prevents this from occuring again easily is the fact of recoil and recovery. (Requiring your target after firing.) So essentially if you fire a burst, full auto, or fire wildly you will undoubtedly miss. However, that first single shot you take will most likely be on target and can be repeated depending if you can control your weapon's muzzle climb and get it back on target to follow it up with yet another shot in the semi-automatic mode.

solution to a problem that does not exist...

Me thinks it would be better to return ALL the weapon accuracy stats to what was present in Vanilla BF2, and keep the greater weapons damage. I played BF2 this morning (silly of me I know) and found that the weapons deviation seemed fairly decent. That may be the only area in the game that they gave tried to get right.

The only complaint most players had with vBF2 was the fact that it took so many hits to bring someone down, not about how accurate or inaccurate it was. Hell the .7 build was a hell of a lot better than this one.

True weapon sway would be about the only way to solve many of these issue, but that may not be possible in game. At least then you could see that your chances of a first round hit may be very low.

At very close ranges (125 meters or less) real life assault rifles ARE super accurate, but at medium (175 meters to 300 meters) to long range (300 meters to 550 meters) it becomes a matter of steading yourself, and preparing for the shot (both mentally and physically) in order to make it count. That means taking the time to assume the proper body position, and remembering your BRASS. NOT FREAKIN PRONE DIVE/SPAMMING EITHER

BRASS stands for (Breath, Relax, Aim, Steady sight picture, Squeeze) in case anyone was wondering Pointing and clicking is in no way connected to skill.

I've never felt recoil from my mouse, nor does my keyboard smell of gunpowder Real skill comes from KNOWING how much holdover and windage is needed to hit at different ranges without wasting time thinking about it. That IS skill and knowledge of your weapon, not clicking a mouse.

I'm all for eliminating the prone/run n gun but don't turn PR into camping fest.

Maybe increase the whole deviation thing even more, so you can't really become an uber-sniper after 2 seconds, but can still fend off CQB attackers under 100m or so.

Outlawz wrote:Maybe increase the whole deviation thing even more, so you can't really become an uber-sniper after 2 seconds, but can still fend off CQB attackers under 100m or so.

That's what I've been saying forever it seems.
Just make the rifles themselves a bit less accurate making it easy to hit targets that are close, but very difficult at medium to long range. That would be closer to realistic than we have in .75. Many of you think real world rifles fire like laser beams and you're wrong, they don't. They won't ever be as accurate as a laser beam either. EVER!

Forget about all this turning and moving settings, and settling times and other variable movement deviation ****. The rifles will have the same accuracies no matter how long you waited to fire.
In real life any given rifle can only shoot a certain level of accuracy, no matter how long you lay down and not move with it in hand. Set all the assault rifles to have a 4 to 5 MOA shot group and be done with it. Then you can fudge the number on different stances if you feel the need.

The rifles have the same MOA no matter what stance you are in. It is the person that has the "MOA" change with different stances and movements not the rifles. Because lower stances like prone allow our human bodies to be the most stable.

All we really need is a complete prone animation which includes the proper amount of time to put an end to prone spamming. Can a decent animator do that?

R

Outlawz wrote:Maybe increase the whole deviation thing even more, so you can't really become an uber-sniper after 2 seconds, but can still fend off CQB attackers under 100m or so.

I think there is much agreement in this area.

I'm also working on coding right now that makes your deviation worse the longer you run and move your mouse violently. For example, the guy who's been running for 10 seconds will have much worse deviation than the guy who is moving room to room, or staying still. Once the runner stops, it takes him a brief moment to catch his breath and shoot accurately again. The guy doing CQB is minimally affected.

You can also greatly increase recoil deviation, while at the same time removing recoil while looking through the sights. This means the guy shooting from the hip will have far worse accuracy than the guy holding the sights up to his eye. THAT is how CQB should work, making iron sights more desirable for CQB. Right now, anyone can shoot from the hip with deadly accuracy.

Would you sacrifice move/shoot to 100% eliminate prone spam?

No. You obviously loose way more than what you gain in the process.



~xghost();

Can we lower this new deviation while moving with sights/scope up, and give enough accuracy to fire from the 'hip' while making it impossible to run n' gun through the map?

Look, IRL when you are getting shot at and wish to return fire what would you do? You get down to reduce your profile and increase the stability of your stance to improve your shot, right? Prone diving is a real world tactic. When I was in boot camp I was taught a little mantra for use while rushing an enemy position... "I'm up, they see me, I'm down" where you jump up and run then drop to the ground so you can shoot in the time you say the phrase above. Now in the real world you normally would only go prone if there were no good cover, taking a knee is generally a better option as it allows you to move out quicker and gets you above the low ground cover so you can shoot better. The problem with BF2 is that crouching does not give you much cover, its not a "locking" position so you have to hold a key down to do it, and ground cover is almost non existant thanks to the distance view exploit (though the PRM team has done an admirable job reducing that). I have no issues with "prone diving" in PRM (though it was a problem in vBF2). Leave it alone before you screw up something else or create a hugely annoying exploit.

Liquid_Cow wrote:Look, IRL when you are getting shot at and wish to return fire what would you do? You get down to reduce your profile and increase the stability of your stance to improve your shot, right? Prone diving is a real world tactic. When I was in boot camp I was taught a little mantra for use while rushing an enemy position... "I'm up, they see me, I'm down" where you jump up and run then drop to the ground so you can shoot in the time you say the phrase above. Now in the real world you normally would only go prone if there were no good cover, taking a knee is generally a better option as it allows you to move out quicker and gets you above the low ground cover so you can shoot better.

Always, always, protection first. Then return fire to achieve fire superiority.

Nice tidbit about Basic. Kinda reminds me of mine. We did that **** so much my chest and stomach hurt for days. Seems I spent most of my career on my belly or crouched behind something I suppose that is better than lying on my back with my feet up in the air all day

Anyway,
The actual term is called the "3 to 5 second rush" IIRC. I was sorta with you right up to the point where you said, "Now in the real world you normally would only go prone if there were no good cover". While there is a ring of truth to that I'd like to add something.

If you move out and then they start shooting at you, it's not a good idea to stop and go prone. That means you made a bad choice and now you have to run the gauntlet. If you have covering fire your chances may be a bit better. I hope you make it. There should always be someone in the squad that is not currently taking fire. That's the guy/s that can take the heat off you so you can one day return the favor.

If there is no good cover, I won't be there. You sort of forget to mention the most important part. That is; you are supposed to seek and pick out a new covered position BEFORE you move out. And it must be close enough that you can reach it within 3 to 5 seconds or so.

If I can't find cover within that distance, I'm not going that way. I will find another route. You NEVER willingly cross a "danger area". And when I say cover I mean REAL cover. Not something that bullets can go through. Once you starting moving from cover to cover, the enemy WILL see you and WILL fire at you. Knowing this it would be DUMB to move from cover to concealment, and give up that protection from bullets. It needs to be from cover to cover or nothing at all. Yes, there were times when I broke the 3 to 5 second rule of thumb, so nothing is set in stone I suppose. Improvise, Adapt.

For those of you that may not be aware of what I mean when I say COVER and/or CONCEALMENT. There is a difference in the two. COVER is something, that while it may not hide you it WILL stop bullets (IE. no penetration). CONCEALMENT is something that will hide you from view, but won't stop bullets. (IE. a bush, or a wooded fence). Never give up COVER for CONCEALMENT, if you know the enemy is watching your sector, especially if he already has an idea about where you are.

Another thing to remember is to assume that the sector you are in is being watched at all times. If you think in those terms it will help you to be for stealthy.



Sorry, now back on topic

gclark03 wrote:Can we lower this new deviation while moving with sights/scope up, and give enough accuracy to fire from the 'hip'

Yes. I'm currently working on a deviation model that allows players to move/shoot with decent accuracy at short/medium range but making it more difficult at long range (100+ meters) without stopping for a few moments to aim.

Also working on CQB: While both open sight and scoped weapons will have the same deviation while shooting from the hip (or remaining still), the difference comes when looking down the sights: open sighted weapons (looking down the sights + turning) will have minimal deviation loss. Scoped rifles (looking through the scope + turning) will have increased deviation. The point is to give open sights an accuracy advantage in short range, and scoped rifles an advantage in long range.

As for run'n gun, you'll never completely eliminate it without destroying another area of the game, but you can increase deviation for those who move their mouse around violently. For example, turning 90 degrees would have minimal deviation change, but turning 180 or 360 will disorient you for a moment.

Dolphins need to be killed.

My idea (That I just tested on the ground in my room) Is to have a maximum upwards sight cap. (Like vehicle positions only have such and such a field of view) Because Looking straight up while prone never made sense. Once the said area is acheived, the recoil would go side to side instead. (Or possibly barly exist in this pos. Since you ARE prone for a reason.)

'[R-MOD wrote:Masaq;667487']Hmmm.

I suspect the law of unintended consequences would come into play here. In theory, it sounds excellent - everything that the mod needs.

In practice, it makes clearing buildings completely impossible if the defender can keep far enough away from grenades being chucked through doors, windows etc.

In practice, it means that instead of prone diving the next best thing in close quarters will be to run around street corners and wait for your target to follow you; because they'll be unable to shoot you at all as they come around.

In practice, it makes it likely that public play will crawl to a virtual standstill as the majority of players take to high positions and stay still in order to wrack up kills instead of getting bodies onto flags to capture them.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I can really see this being detrimimental as the suggestion currently stands - and it's just as unrealistic as prone diving. Soliders can fire semi-accurate shots whilst moving slowly. It's not ideal, sure, but it beats standing completely still.

In short, this would completely reduce combat to "whoever sees the other guy first". Two people moving, first guy to lift his finger off the move button will win the engagement - not the best shot.

My thoughts exactly. This is an absolutely terrible idea.

Tbh, you guys have already practically ruined this game by the current version. This idea would be the nail in the coffin.

'[T wrote:BludShoT;670892']Tbh, you guys have already practically ruined this game by the current version. This idea would be the nail in the coffin.

Define "ruined". Deviation hasn't changed much except for the .6 laser gun nightmare. Beyond that, the only changes to PR are the new skins, models, removal of clown car/SL spawning, addition of commander assets, and new maps & vehicles. Take away that, and we're back to vanilla...

And for what it's worth, I've been able to severely reduce run'n gun prone spam while without harming accuracy or CQB tactics. We did another round of testing tonight and it's pretty frick'n awesome, and far better than what currently exists.

Of course, everything is subjective.

Wolfe wrote:Define "ruined". Deviation hasn't changed much except for the .6 laser gun nightmare.

And for what it's worth, I've been able to severely reduce run'n gun and prone spam while at the same time enhancing CQB tactics using some simple tricks. We did another round of testing tonight and it's pretty frick'n awesome, and far better than seen to date. Realistic too.

May I look at what you have done?

[R-CON]nedlands1 wrote:May I look at what you have done?

Not until it's perfected. Minimum accuracy and "shooting from the hip" while moving still needs refinement.

Liquid_Cow wrote:Look, IRL when you are getting shot at and wish to return fire what would you do? You get down to reduce your profile and increase the stability of your stance to improve your shot, right? Prone diving is a real world tactic.

True, but no way you IRL can dive and get an accurate shot off within miliseconds!

It's like jumping a fench and being ready to get an accurate shot off the second you land (vBF2), but that's not how it works IRL.

Hey, if PR got better by switching to BF2142, I would go out and buy a copy!

regards,
Steen

PrivateJson wrote: Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid_Cow View Post
Look, IRL when you are getting shot at and wish to return fire what would you do? You get down to reduce your profile and increase the stability of your stance to improve your shot, right? Prone diving is a real world tactic.
True, but no way you IRL can dive and get an accurate shot off within miliseconds!

It's like jumping a fench and being ready to get an accurate shot off the second you land (vBF2), but that's not how it works IRL.

Hey, if PR got better by switching to BF2142, I would go out and buy a copy!

regards,
Steen

Yep. Some people here have missed the point.
The problem with prone spamming isn't that people are shooting from the prone position but that they can go prone and actually start shooting with prone accuracy while the third person player model is still falling to the ground, sometimes rolling once to the side. Now, frankly, I don't care how well some people are trained, the above is incredibly bad for gameplay.
Also, the huge problem with Battlefield 2142 is that none of the original Battlefield 2 content can legally be ported to Battlefield 2142, thus, if the Devs would go for it, at the beginning, all the PR mod would have is a complete British faction, the IDF and whatever is done by the community mods (most of whom are BLUFOR, meaning they'd only have around 1 or 2 factions to fight) and whatever was added to the original factions + a couple of statics. They'd also have to recode AAS, the quartermaster system etc. and remake the maps.

Wolfe wrote:Define "ruined". Deviation hasn't changed much except for the .6 laser gun nightmare. Beyond that, the only changes to PR are the new skins, models, removal of clown car/SL spawning, addition of commander assets, and new maps & vehicles. Take away that, and we're back to vanilla...

I would define "ruined" as: made the game no longer fun to the point that I never want to play it again. Of course, I didn't say it was ruined, I said people have managed to "practically" ruin it. So the more relevant question would be how would I define "practically ruined".

I'd define that by: making the game a lot less fun and just generally all around less cool than it once was. The suppression has all but ruined the game for people with low fps. Adding new giant maps that aren't fun and removing old small maps that were fun. For example, I have never had fun on Quinling or Kashan - I won't even play those maps now because I've given them a fair shot and they are terrible (I'm not talking about the technical mapping skills etc, only gameplay).

Fools Road is pretty cool, but the FPS is so bad as to make it unplayable. Jabal, once a cool map has been ruined, characterized now by crawling around in the dirt and basically not being able to do much of anything. Road To Kyongan' Ni was never very good but I can say the latest experience in RtKN is the worst one yet - suppression makes cover a lot more important, so all these maps with very little cover have just turned into a crappy experience.

Al Basrah used to be crazy fun for both teams! Now it's terrible! 5 hours of walking around knowing you don't have a hope in hell of putting a dent in the british.

Another example of "practically ruining" it would be the really bad deviation of 0.7 which has now been fixed (but I'm pretty sure some people including yourself want to see it come back).

Any new skins or sounds or models, etc etc are all wonderful and I'm obviously not criticizing those.

Wolfe wrote:And for what it's worth, I've been able to severely reduce run'n gun prone spam while without harming accuracy or CQB tactics. We did another round of testing tonight and it's pretty frick'n awesome, and far better than what currently exists.

If you have managed to make some kind of change that is totally different and better than what you originally had said, which was what I was responding to, then that is a different story.


Generally speaking if you made a scale that went from SKILL on one side to SIM on the other, PR has been gradually sliding the bar from SKILL towards SIM. That's awesome if you have no skill.

Every change that is made that hamstrings people will skill ONLY affects those people. So, if you used to be great with grenades, well now you can't do much with them because they have been nerfed. That only affects a person who was skilled with them, if you were not skilled with them you can still use them just as effectively as you used to (ie: ineffectively)

When you create a deviation on the weapons, the people who used to have amazing aim are now hamstrung by it. But the people who's aim used to suck won't even notice.

Idiots who used to travel through the forest and be a million miles out of position and take their sweet *** time moving around are not affected by the new lack of enough vehicles or the removal of spawn points, because now they are still wandering around the forest and playing soldiers and taking forever - but now everyone else is forced to as well.

People who never took advantage of the old features like SL spawning and who just whined about them don't mind the removal of the SL spawning because it only hurts the people who played PR properly before - not the whiners - because if the whiners had been playing it right they wouldn't have been whining.

Who is rewarded by the new version of PR? The answer is easy: slow people who never had good aim or reaction time, who like to camp. If you camp prone in one spot your accuracy is perfect and you can snipe at the people who are actually trying to get things done in the game.

People will say the usual drivel about how PR isn't for the masses and you obviously aren't into realism, yadda yadda, but the fact is PR was founded by people who wanted to make BF2 a more realistic, yet still FUN experience. Since that time many people have left the dev team or retired and lost their influence. Meanwhile new people have been added to the team who have a different vision for PR than what I believe was originally intended.

I'm definitely interested to see what 0.8 will be like, it might be better! But I won't be terribly surprised if it is worse.