Commander being removed?

[Natala]

Mr.Yellow, you badly need to get some sleep. Come back tomorrow, debating on the forum at 3 - 4 am is never healthy.

You seem very passionate for somebody who has only been here a short time, but you should have faith that every class it continuously modified and that it is guaranteed that the devs on here will come up with something new for the Commander.

Every class gets tweaked eventually.

[MrYellow]

Calm.. down.. Mr.Yellow.

I'm calm .

It is positive that a squad-leader can build now without depending on a Commander.

This is a good one.... It does break down the problem of one team losing
for lack of a commander. It is also the thing that enables us to get on ok
without a commander. As there is no need for him to get the same assets
out on the field. Only asset you miss out on is the mortar strikes, but
then for the hassle involved, a handful of well placed molotov/rocket/gren is easier.

-Ben

[Masaq]

I'm sorry, I just don't believe you play the game completely differently to us in the Northern Hemisphere.

The only time I'll dig in is when my team is clearly in a defensive role - PLA on Barracuda, MEC on Muttrah etc. Every other map where both sides can assault - and on those defensive maps when the ground-pounding starts - I'll be there, with my squad, telling them to hurry the frak up and get them to where I want them to be. I'll defend a position if no-one else is but preferably?

Preferably my squad have got a Rallypoint 300m behind the enemy, they're moving in quickly and quietly, without being seen (I don't permit squad members to open fire without orders to, often) and we'll hit the objective usually before anyone else is around.

I also point-blank refuse to fight if it's not in my interests to. I won't sit and fight over dead ground - if the enemy have captured a CP on push mode and we can't retake it, I won't let my squad stay in the area. We move straight out to the next position to fight over ground that's important.



Now, does that sound at all familiar, Yellow?


Because I also love having a commander around to let the other squads know what I'm doing without having to pause and type it out. I like the commander being able to destroy a FOP that I no longer need, I like the commander being able to place markers and relay commands for me. I love a commander who makes sure that other squads back me up when I've advanced too far and suddenly end up in the shit lol...

...One extra infantryman probably won't make a massive difference on the ground. One guy acting as a comms relay (and I refuse to believe that that's not an important part of the role) and organising force for the team? Well, he can do a lot of good.

Sure, it's nothing that six or seven really good squad leaders can't do themselves with some text-chat or TeamSpeak, but when has the command part of the CO ever been more than what good SLs with decent comms can do for themselves?

The commander can do the co-ordination more effectively than the guys can themselves - that's why all business models usually have someone co-ordinating things.


I went commander in 0.8 for the first time on EJOD Desert on T&T (UK server) two nights ago. I'd been avoiding it for days because I figured some of the changes would make it less interesting to play... and yeah, the first five minutes were a nightmare.

My side (MEC) were being pushed back to the North Desert flag, and it was looking like it might go grey. The squad leaders organised the defence between themselves mostly, and as they held it we pushed back forwards.

By leapfrogging the squads - the guys at North Desert stayed there until West City was taken, then pulled past West City and into East City, supported by a second squad who flanked around the east edge of the map in vehicles. The guys at West were supported by another squad who first built a FOP in the old Gardens area, then all four squads pushed forwards and formed a defensive line across the southern edge of the city.

I then leapfrogged another squad forwards, supported by the APC from the squad who'd flanked into East City, right up into the old Ruins and then into Gas Station. Once that was neutralised, they dug in whilst the guys from the City flags pushed up to support & secure the area and then beat the **** out of the USA's main.

Now, you may be thinking "The squad leaders didn't know what they were doing, they needed a commander to tell them" - they didn't, the SLs knew their jobs perfectly well, and did them brilliantly. What they needed was ONE person to say WHICH squad was going to be doing WHAT and WHEN.

They didn't need me to tell them where to move directly or what buildings to occupy in the way that you seem to Commanders to do - I didn't need to be on the front line because the Squad Leaders knew the game well enough to know what worked and what wouldn't work. Putting me on the front line, where I can get shot at and distracted by enemy movements wouldn't have helped them any more.

ALL that they needed was someone to let each squad know what each was doing, to pass the messages along when a Stryker moved into the city, to let the AT guys know where to find them, to let our BDRMs know where the enemy infantry were, and to tell the SLs how I wanted them to move around.

Yes, all that could have been done by them themselves... but they don't have VOIP to communicate directly so having me do it was more efficient. We won by a massive number of tickets (over 100) considering that twenty minutes earlier, we'd been half a flag capture away from having our main assaulted.



Now, actually, on a map like EJOD the commander isn't all that much use above and beyond good SLs. On a map like Kashan, Qinling, or the Command and Control gamemode? The commander is VITAL because it's the commander who has the time and space (thanks to not really being able to leave the CP) to work out what's going on and what the best way to respond to enemy movements is.

I was sceptical when the change was added halfway through 0.8's development, and in testing I really didn't like it. Having played now with some excellet COs leading the teams I've been on, and having had a few brilliant rounds as the CO - like the round I described above - I'm personally convinced that with the further changes to come in PR over the next few releases will continue to move the CO away from just being Bob the Builder/JDAM Placer to an important strategist's role. It won't be for everyone, but for those who do take to it, it'll be a brilliant experience.

[MrYellow]

Now, you may be thinking "The squad leaders didn't know what they were doing, they needed a commander to tell them" - they didn't, the SLs knew their jobs perfectly well, and did them brilliantly. What they needed was ONE person to say WHICH squad was going to be doing WHAT and WHEN.

So you have to be in the CP to do that?

Why?

-Ben

[General_J0k3r]

being commander is very much fun if your squads are talking to you, relay information and do what told/tell you why they can't do what told.

if noone speaks to you or gives marklarz... well, then it's reaaaallyy boring

[Masaq]

So you have to be in the CP to do that?

Why?

-Ben

Why not?

[<1sk>Headshot]

I'm at work so I don't really have much time to ninja a properly structured post out but first understand I'm not trying to be a twat or belittle you mate.

We cope without a CO because that's how we're forced to play. If the CO was a playable slot we'd use it.

This isn't about us and them or me and you.

Notice, the only people saying the CO currently has little to no use are you and Truism - both Australian ccommunity members - so yes, this does apply. Look at the overwhelming response from most non-Aus members.

I don't know how many versions you have played the mod but as said before in previous versions the CO has always been mobile.

0.6 was when deployable assets were introduced, the CO was the only person who could build so he spent ALL his time driving round the map placing stuff, doing NO commanding. No-one want a repeat of that so opted for a stationary CO role instead I guess.

This is the first version with the drastic CO changes and is defenitely not perfect. I just don't think it deserves the doom and gloom you put on it. Who knows, maybe we'll see some more utilities given to the CO in future patches/builds.

[Majorpain]

Instead of using the stick of "if you dont have commander you will fail", why not try using a carrot?

A new "commander Waypoint" so you can still give attack markers on lone enemy whilst aknowledging you are heading to a flag, and a small teamwork bonus per minute you stay 200M around that flag?

More artillery (smoke? 10 mins/Artillery 15 mins/JDAM 30 mins?) so if you are getting overun at a point you can simply call in arty and fall back?

This way having the commander has a real purpose for squads instead of being a glorified signaller.

[Masaq]

The unofficial rule in PR is that it takes at least three release cycles for any new addition to become a properly decent addition.

Commander's assets were awful in 0.6, better in 0.7 and pretty damn good in 0.8. They'll keep getting improved in .85, 0.9, 1.0.

Likewise getting the commander's role in all of this needs to be tweaked and improved as the mod progressess. Don't expect the CO's role to be identical in future releases, but do understand - as I think most people do - that forcing the CO into the position where they are most effective at Commanding by making them least effective as a one-man fighting force is likely to be a gameplay dynamic that stays throughout. He may not be restricted solely to the CP in future, but he definitely shouldn't be running and gunning with an assault squad.

[space]

Not true headshot - many people think that the co has little use in 0.8 and not just Australians.
Yes a commander can and should make the difference between winning and losing. Im not sure anyone here is disputing that.
What were saying is give him more to do, so its more fun for him ( thats why we play right? ) At the moment, for the commander, its like playing a really really **** and really really slow version of command and conquer

[Cyrax-Sektor]

Commander is like a game of chess. It's not a FPS anymore, it's a strategy game using real players in battle for a better outcome.

Granted, the role is not for everyone! Be it people not listening, or a terrible situation, the job just goes sour, giving the position a bad name. But a good commander can still turn the game around, if the team is willing to listen.

[Scot]

COMMANDERS DON'T LEAD FROM THE FRONT!!!! YOU DONT PUT YOUR HIGHEST RANKING OFFICER IN CONTROL OF THE COORDINATION OF A REGIMENT OF TROOPS IN FRONT OF A LINE OF BULLETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That aside, we had Rudd commanding our round of basrah whilest we were brits and it was one of the most amazing rounds I've played in PR and I know a lot of other folks would agree. We were running an APC/Infantry squad with the warrior.
Whilest Alpha team (inf) would be holding a secure place the CO would gimme an order to move a squad so Bravo (Apc) would move to extract them whilest alpha would pull back and secure them a drop zone.

APC would drop off squad, alpha would jump straight in and we'd be off to our next mission... Get to the squad alpha hops out and gives them hell whilest the squad gets evacuated, meanwhile alpha's sitting in the thick of the shit, APC would come get us.... Back off to our next mission as ordered by commander

When it came time to rearm I was just thankful I could hop out and have a fag for 2 minutes! constant action running back and forth for the CO

Commanders rock, Far more in this new version, Dam anyone who says otherwise

+1 Was in that round leading a Squad, had Rico leading squad 6 and then had us clearing the West of the city from the North, with Rudd in direct Comms with the pilot so we had insertion and extraction, it was timed and it was the most intense firefights I have ever had in my life.

The thing with Commander is in 0.8, you don't need a Commander. However if you have a good one, the advantages are ten fold.

[torenico]

Tell me, anyone saw Rommel in the "Duestche Wouchenscahau" (What?,, Nazi Germany Newsreel), fighting among some Soldiers in Normandy whit a MP40 in his hand?... are the germans or Any army that stupid to send your COMMANDER to the front, and die like a normal guy?.



If you think the Commander is Boring and needs to be Deleted NOW, then dont play as commander, other people cant play whitout commander, other people LOVE the commander position, others no. I think you are completly wrong, theres NO High Rank commander going to the Front... the Commanders, Officers, Generals, Staff, etc, fights only on the Last Battles, when the HQ is Surrounded and that... you have seen too much Holywood.


Who edited my UBER Grammar errors... cuz im not a bad english man, coz i cant pay for a inglish shoool

[Scot]

Well... in We Were Soldiers there is a Lieutenant Colonel fighting amongst the men on the ground... but maybe it's not the best example XD

[Durandal]

The commander definitely needs some love. Especially the insurgent one. Can't even request a cell leader kit anywhere, nor can he suicide or resign if he does not have the cell leader kit.

A very experienced commander can be a good asset to a team, but the only help I've seen a good commander offers is easier communication between squads. He basically relays messages back and forth and spots enemy positions. That certainly helps quite a bit, but seriously... in all the rounds I've played .8 - that's pretty much all he's for. If all of your squad leaders already know what they're doing and communicate well, there is absolutely no reason to have a commander in any way whatsoever. Especially since the J-dam is seriously underpowered.

And if your squad leaders DONT know what they're doing, having a commander isn't going to help them much.

[MrYellow]

First..... I've been playing PR since 0.5, ppl do play and not post on the
forums ..... I'm an old OFP/VBS guy along with alot of the aussie
scene (the game had it's major scene here in Australia with some devs being
located here and ADFA being early adopters of VBS for training). Been
playing realism based FPS for around 10 years or more. Before that there
wasn't really any FPS that focused on this area.

.......

Symptom: No one plays commander anymore. Simple fact. It shows there
is most definitely a problem with the slot.

Causes: Restricted to CP, forced to play a certain way with no room for
changing the location/tactics of the commander as the situation dictates.
He's stuck with only one option to play with. Always at the rear instead of
being able to move up his CP as the front moves, costing him situational
awareness while costing the squads the benefit of having their command
nearby and at hand if needed in some way other then a coms relay.

Contra-indications: CP restriction counters against "Rambo
commanders", while making the CO job linear and restricted in how they
approach the job.

..........

Functional Requirements:

As I understand your purposes for this change. Is it possible to have the
functional requirements for this change listed? So we can see other
possible solutions easier.... Maybe answering my earlier questions would
help us understand the devs thinking on this better.

1. Reduction of "Rambo commanders".
2. Refocus of CO slot onto command and away from inf.
3. Decoupling of SQD leaders from CO for build orders.

Possible Solutions:

1. 3 min respawn timer on commander would stop a lot of Rambo while
enabling the CO to play the game how they determine to be best. Instead of
being forced to play in one way and one way only.

2. A mobile CP would help greatly, being suck way back behind the lines
with no option of getting closer really does restrict the CO too much.

3. Map markers, hotkeys for voice to each individual squad (without map
screen up, if possible), more/different tactical support tools. I think the
current features with some tweaking cover refocusing CO onto command well
enough without the CP restriction.

4. Making SQD leaders more effective with assets deployment seems to be
covered by the patch with SQD leaders being able to build without approval,
however we do sometimes hit issues with FOPs being in the wrong spot and
then being restricted by number of OPs that can be deployed in an area.

Can a CO remove FOPs remotely or does he have to drive up to them?

If he has to drive up to them then how does this fit with the CP
restriction? Doesn't that mean he'll have to spend ages driving from the
very rear to the FOP and then back again?

-Ben

[Cassius]

Two words: Kashan. Desert.

A good commander is a huge (I daresay game-winning) asset on this map.

A good commander is almost a guarantee you win if the opposing force does not have a commander. Out of the dozen + times or so I was CO I lost only one game due to an tactical error on my side (no bunker moved to fast). The other times I won with a large or low lead depending on if the 1337 tags were on my team or not, but my side won.

[Spacepiston]

All the commanders from .75 (which we can all agree had some level of skill) no longer play commander. People used to fill the commander role if it was needed. They didn't only play commander, they played it in rotation.

People can go on and on about how it's for some and not for others but that won't change the fact that it's not for most. You get people interested in and skilled at commanding by making the position appealing.

The position is no longer appealing to those who used to like playing commander. Now you think that new people are going to warm up to the role? It's not going to happen. The "new" has already worn off of PR and the commander slot is emptier than it was on day one. It's emptier because everyone checked it out and decided it's not for them.

So I think we can draw at least one reasonable logical conclusion: The commander role is not for most, thus we should not expect a commander in most games.

[<1sk>Headshot]

Not true headshot - many people think that the co has little use in 0.8

Where are they then? Not in this thread anyway.

[MrYellow]

Where are they then? Not in this thread anyway.

lol

Sorry if I offend but I have to ask to be sure I know what the deal is
being new here. Is headshot a mod here or something or the local troll?

Scroll down for all the people that see there are issues with the commander
slot. Be important all you like.... I'd like to hear more suggestions.

-Ben