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Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-28 20:57
by fubar++
Damn, listen the man. You have real pilot telling what's wrong with the choppers - I agree with him totally - and the conversation turns into BF2 metric system math and other non-sense small details. Sorry being a bit rude but many charecterics you have with those choppers are just plain silly. Original vanilla choppers had some realism, not perfect but not so bad either, but with PR choppers you get in so many akward unreal situations. There have been some inprovements but still a loooong way to go actual realism. It's not the thing they wouldn't behave very realistically in some situations, it's the fact that sometimes they do things that just isn't possible with earth physics.
If you'r not a pilot buy yourself a short chopper ride and you will be enlighted.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-29 03:27
by Teek
fubar++;835741 wrote: *snip* it's the fact that sometimes they do things that just isn't possible with earth physics.
/QUOTE]
If you read the thread and understood why they where talking about units you would know that all of that is cause of the BF2 engine and the hueys lack of refinement
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-29 04:52
by Rhino
there is "drag" in bf2 which is air friction but its very odd in BF2.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-29 08:15
by fubar++
Teek wrote:fubar++;835741 wrote: *snip* it's the fact that sometimes they do things that just isn't possible with earth physics.
/QUOTE]
If you read the thread and understood why they where talking about units you would know that all of that is cause of the BF2 engine and the hueys lack of refinement
Yes I understand the hardness of making models for BF2 engine, but the fact stays that vanilla choppers don't fail under you. They are not realistic but neither are these here, and if I would have choice I would pick the previous.
Still, I hope model makers can achieve better physics with the choppers and at the same time there would be that PR feeling you don't want to mis.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-29 12:31
by Alex6714
The Operation peacekeeper mod helicopters have the most realistic physics in my opinion, not perfect by all means, but on the right direction, but are way to slow. I tried changing a couple of PR ones and failed.
Maybe I will try again but I don´t have any hopes.
The main issues are:
1) Acceleration to fast.
2) Nose down your "perfect" huey or cow, and see what happens. Yup, thats right, you just don´t come back up. I can´t get the videos right now, but in real life you can put you nose down a lot without going 1000mph into the ground. This is almost perfect in the OPK mod.
3) The tail rotor fails epically in game. Actually, it fails so much it doesn´t deserve the name tail rotor. You should be able to turn it at high speeds, well, at almost any speed although less as you get faster I think.
Right now you have to be almost hovering for it to work...
4) Banking right or left should not induce a turn as much as it does in game, at least not as quickly.
Thats basically what I find the most wrong.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-29 12:55
by markonymous
i find that the ROC(Rate Of Climb) on some choppers is way to slow, The Huey for example. I'm not sure of the ROC of the huey in-game but i got it to somewhere around 5 m/s whereas the real ROC is 8.9 m/s
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-29 14:09
by Waaah_Wah
[R-CON]Alex6714 wrote:The Operation peacekeeper mod helicopters have the most realistic physics in my opinion, not perfect by all means, but on the right direction, but are way to slow. I tried changing a couple of PR ones and failed.
Maybe I will try again but I don´t have any hopes.
The main issues are:
1) Acceleration to fast.
2) Nose down your "perfect" huey or cow, and see what happens. Yup, thats right, you just don´t come back up. I can´t get the videos right now, but in real life you can put you nose down a lot without going 1000mph into the ground. This is almost perfect in the OPK mod.
3) The tail rotor fails epically in game. Actually, it fails so much it doesn´t deserve the name tail rotor. You should be able to turn it at high speeds, well, at almost any speed although less as you get faster I think.
Right now you have to be almost hovering for it to work...
4) Banking right or left should not induce a turn as much as it does in game, at least not as quickly.
Thats basically what I find the most wrong.
Does the rudder actually work that well at higher speeds IRL?
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-29 14:43
by Cp
Not for turning, but the rudder is used while banking to prevent side-slipping.
side-slipping causes drag which causes a loss of speed.
in reality that is, im pretty sure side-slipping isn't possible to simulate with this engine
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-30 11:17
by Robert1983nl
Waaah_Wah wrote:Does the rudder actually work that well at higher speeds IRL?
I do not think you want to do that irl at high speeds such as 100 knots. It's not good for your airframe
I think the rudder is alright in PR, not perfect, but alright. It should have more authority though at speeds between slow-medium. Also, it has too much authority in the hover. You can make hover turns WAY too quickly. IRL, that'd be very dangerous to do. You'd also get a overtorque from turning so quickly using the tailrotor.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 01:16
by Drav
For me the helicopters are like the jets. There isnt even the slightest hope of making them near realistic, so I am happy with the approximation we have now.
I've said it before. Without including torque, helicopters can't have realistic feeling controls. A movement of one input should require a balancing input from the other two. Without this juggling feeling they just feel like you're playing an arcade game. Seeing as this is not a helicopter simulator I am fine with that.
This extends to some of the procedures you have described Robert. I disagree that bf2s flight model is more accurate, I think both have their faults. Slope landings are an example. In bf2 you can just slap a helicopter down on a hill incredibly easily. As a real pilot you will know that slope landings require a careful touch to avoid a rollover or hitting the rotors on the ground. At the other end of the spectrum, PR slope landings are so hazardous most pilots prefer to hover rather than touch down. Without the fine control needed to be able to lower one skid centimetres at a time we will never be able to faithfully recreate slope landings in PR. Likewise the bf2 throttle off chuck it down there representation completely over-simplifies it.
I agree with your overall sentiments that the helicopter controls need improving to be called realistic. However I can live with these faults as the overall experience of flying a helicopter, ferrying troops, delivering CAS, bringing supplies and generally feeling needed is not one I've seen as well done in any other game, including helicopter simulators.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 01:52
by Truism
[R-CON]Mescaldrav wrote:
I've said it before. Without including torque, helicopters can't have realistic feeling controls. A movement of one input should require a balancing input from the other two. Without this juggling feeling they just feel like you're playing an arcade game. Seeing as this is not a helicopter simulator I am fine with that.
I swear to god DC felt like it did that. Actually learning to fly the helicopters was the hardest bit - it wasn't noob friendly at all. Keeping the thing in the air and performing simple tasks took hours to learn, gaining the ability to juggle your different control inputs and inertia. Once you had mastered the concepts though, you could do a lot that I can't even imagine being possible in vBF2/PR.
Any comments from people who have flown in real life and flown in DC? Am I starry eyed, but mistaken?
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 02:00
by Scot
DC was on the 1942 engine, which in some aspects is superior to the BF2 engine. Having never played it I can't really comment, but I think that the 1942 was slightly more vehicle friendly
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 15:11
by Mora
The 1942 engine is the same as BF2 engine, BF2 just looks better.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 15:15
by Rhino
Mora wrote:The 1942 engine is the same as BF2 engine, BF2 just looks better.
they are VERY diffrent... just some things from 1942 where taken mainly coding methods but the engines them selves are very, very diffrent... its like saying frostbite is the same engine as the BF2 engine...
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 17:19
by SocketMan
There is also keyboard VS joystick "issue".
Not really an issue but different people use different controls - I use the joystick
and absolutely love the way little bird handles so much more intuitive then any other
model. The new damage model is pretty good too,maybe a bit to punishing but the general idea is quite good.I don't see how vanilla is realistic: the best part is when you do a fast decent and your air speed actually decreases,basically the laws of physics
don't apply. PR choppers aren't perfect but it's night and day compare to vanilla.
You probably use the keyboard - give joystick a shot.I know a lot of people would disagree but how many rl choppers have keyboards installed?
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 17:34
by Waaah_Wah
How many have joysticks?
AFAIK, they are using something similar to a joystick but not quite the same.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 18:01
by Alex6714
Waaah_Wah wrote:How many have joysticks?
AFAIK, they are using something similar to a joystick but not quite the same.
Of course they have joysticks, more complicated ones but joysticks nonetheless. What did you think they used?
They just don´t use only the joystick.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 18:31
by Smegburt_funkledink
All you need now, Alex, are the Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals...
and maybe this too...
Kris Abel's Tech Life :: Hands-On Look At The Canadian-Made Dreamflyer And Microsoftâ$™s New Expansion For Flight Sim X
Then we can talk about realism.
Re: Helicopters are too unrealistic
Posted: 2008-10-31 18:41
by Alex6714
Now thats something, although give me a range of full flight sims integrated to FSX, Lock on and BF2 please.
