Project Reality Forums

or just the fact there might be a ton of grenadiers?

i'm also worried about that. SAW is one thing. Grenadier... that's another.

I think Grenadier and auto rifleman should both be in the normal spawn screen or at least be the only kits that you are able to request from the rally points and every squad should be able to have one of them since they are (as far as I know) part of every squad IRL.

Spaz while that might be true, we gotta think that this is still a game and not real life... Grenadiers are hella annoying in large numbers...

think back to vBF2 Karkand, Pre-Grenadier Nerf.

So are scopes.

but everyone except Militia and Insurgents have scopes...

That doesn't make them any less annoying or realistic.

My point is that grenadiers are about as annoying as the scopes on their rifles - that's no reason for them not to be on the spawn menu. The only problem would be giving people an incentive to choose the optics rifleman over the grenadier.

gazzthompson wrote:Search:Keyword(s): spawn, selection, kits

right, ive always thought this and with kits not being able to be requested from RP's in .85 figured id suggest it.

basically it would be handy for squads and more realistic if there was a SAW/grenadier/marksman(?) (and maybe not a LAT cause might be OP with 4/5 LATS on field?) in the squad at all(unless dead) times.

i haven't don't much (any) research into squad weapon layouts and the fact that RL squads are mainly 8 persons? might need for the kit layout to be changed slightly. but a weapon like a SAW and UGL should be in a squad at all times for realism and for use for the squad and wont be massively OP. maybe not so much with marksman and LAT because we only have 6 spots (one for medic and one for SL).


implementation:

add SAW,grenadier and either/neither/both marksman and LAT to spawn screen and have it squad specific on limitations. is that possible ?

so yea, just me thinking out loud, might be suggested b4 but w/e.

Yep, I agree. I don't know how the Army does it, but with the Marine Corps, there are fireteams than squads. Basically, a Fireteam = around 4 men. I am no infantryman/grunt, I am a pogue lol, but from what I have been taught, the basis of a fireteam is built around the SAW because he is the person who lays the supressing fire and allows the rest to operate and move without being under constant fire 100% of the time. Then you have the Grenadier which is most likely to be carried by the Fireteam leader who would be a Corporal, Sergeant, or even in some cases, a Lance Corporal. That is basically the equivalent of the Officer/SL in PR. So a Marine fireteam would look something like this

Fireteam Leader (Corporal) = M16 w/Grenadier
Automatic Rifleman (Lance Corporal/Corporal)= SAW
Rifleman- (Lance Corporal)= M16
Rifleman- (PFC)= M16


A Marine squad = 2-3 Fireteams with Fireteam Leaders with 1 SL to head them all. So in PR/BF2, a squad is actually closer to a Fireteam rather than a real squad in terms of role and actual size.

So basically, what I am saying is they shouldn't even have to request a SAW or Grenadier kit from the rally to be denied one since they would have it already the minute they step out of their base just like the rifleman kit, officer kit, corpman kit, etc. are available from the start.



With a Marksman, LAT, or the rest of the specialty kits, they are basically only found in squad or platoon level formations if I am correct. I would be ok with the new changes coming in 0.85 if they were forced to get their kits off of Supply Crates as those simulate a "staging area" where the squad or platoon would drop their gear and set up for whatever they are about to do. Basically like a bigger version of a rallypoint. This way, if a squad wants to operate on its own, it can have its weapons from the start and if they need LAT or Marksman kits, then they could go back to the Supply Crate area where other "fireteams" will be at, link up with them, simulating an actual "squad" or "Platoon."


Don't get me wrong, I actually want LAT to still be requestable from RPs, but if these changes are actually coming, then at least balance them out with letting the SAW and Grenadier be on the kit selection screen.


O yea, one thing that kind of bugs me is that the SL's kit is called "Officer kit" when it should really be called "Fireteam Leader" or "Squad Leader" kit at the most. The only "Officers" in PR are the Pilots and the Commander. The rest are the Enlisted men who do most of the work.

gclark03 wrote:That doesn't make them any less annoying or realistic.

My point is that grenadiers are about as annoying as the scopes on their rifles - that's no reason for them not to be on the spawn menu. The only problem would be giving people an incentive to choose the optics rifleman over the grenadier.

I wouldn't mind having grenardiers and LAT as spawn kits, so long as there still is some kit limiting. Because whether they should be annoying or not, I'll have to pass on the realistic part unless you can find me a reference of a conventional squad comprised of only grenadiers.

McLuv, the way to solve that is restricting the kit to one per squad, giving a rather unrealistic maximum of nine grenadiers on a 64-player team. With the requirement of 2 or 3 people in the squad to spawn as a grenadier, it would actually balance out quite nicely.

I really want to see a Commander kit that gives the Commander even more encouragement to stay near his Command Post. Why does he need a scope, anyway? All a CO really needs is a knife, a pistol, some field dressings, binoculars and maybe a smoke or signal grenade.

gclark03 wrote:McLuv, the way to solve that is restricting the kit to one per squad, giving a rather unrealistic maximum of nine grenadiers on a 64-player team. With the requirement of 2 or 3 people in the squad to spawn as a grenadier, it would actually balance out quite nicely.

I really want to see a Commander kit that gives the Commander even more encouragement to stay near his Command Post. Why does he need a scope, anyway? All a CO really needs is a knife, a pistol, some field dressings, binoculars and maybe a smoke or signal grenade.

Yes, that I would fully support. Though it was mentioned earlier, I hadn't realized you meant for that to be included too.

gazzthompson wrote:exactly what im talking about.


but, what kits... we already agreed LAT is out of question ? offer marksman,SAW and grenadier ? saw and gren have to be in IMO , not OP and used alot.

1. SL
2. Medic
3. rifleman
4. SAW
5. grenadier
6. marksman ??

obviously the SL can choose not to have one if need other kit like engi ect.

I don't think you would ever see a marksman on a fireteam (almost 90% sure on this one) level or squad level. It is more likely to be on a platoon level, so I don't think it should be requestable from a rally.

1, the people using it have to be trained in it,

2, it is expensive and I doubt everyone would have one cus of it,

3, the M16s already have ACOGs and are accurate at long ranges, solving the problem of range, but also have burst and rapid fire for close range (speaking from the USMC side)

4, and from what I have heard, the Marksman is generally in a speciality fireteam or group out of a platoon. For ex. just a pair of 2 men kind of like a sniper, but for urban use, hence why they are not found at fireteam or squad levels (if I am correct).


IMO, LAT should come first before Marksman if you are talking about for RPs because with the amount of APCs the DEVs are talking about, it has to be there to balance out armor even at the expense of "realism."

A couple less marksman won't hurt anyone. Not being able to destory an APC with a 50cal does.

until someone comes up with a solution to exploiting the FH2 system, it will remain the way it is.

an FH2 system is already in use for the officer kit, and that can be exploited right now to get each member of the squad an officer kit. the reason its not commonly exploited is because:

1) you have to do it in the right order since only SL can request officer
2) the officer kit is only mildly more useful than a rifleman
3) officer kit does not have a huge advantage


What yall are suggesting is basically to remove the rifleman class completely, which I disagree with for a number of reasons. Why would ANYONE pick a rifleman over an automatic rifleman, or grenadier? The answer is: they wouldnt. However in real war situations (and talking about conventional warfare here on a massive scale, not just the kind in iraq and afghanistan currently) the majority of a fighting unit will be issued standard rifles.

Besides the real life implications, the effects on gameplay are quite severe. Giving every soldier super weapons basically means even if you WANTED to just use rifleman in your squad, it will be a useless strategy since all other players will be taking advantage of all the more powerful weapons at all times.

Besides all this, I think with the new changes its actually going to be EASIER for a well organised team to request kits, and certainly more logical. Mechanized Infantry squads will virtually never have an issue with requesting kits, since all kits can be requested from the back of an APC, so you wont be "running all over" to get your kit.

Ok, fair enough. Don't try to fix what isn't broken, I guess?

[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:Besides all this, I think with the new changes its actually going to be EASIER for a well organised team to request kits, and certainly more logical. Mechanized Infantry squads will virtually never have an issue with requesting kits, since all kits can be requested from the back of an APC, so you wont be "running all over" to get your kit.

Now this, I slightly disagree with, because it's entirely likely that you will be "run all over" when requesting a kit from an APC

[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:until someone comes up with a solution to exploiting the FH2 system, it will remain the way it is.

A lot of us want it to remain the way it is if the fix cannot be done to get it on the menu screen, but it was mentioned in the other thread that kits will have to be requested from Supply crates now instead of Rally Points.

What yall are suggesting is basically to remove the rifleman class completely, which I disagree with for a number of reasons.

No one is suggesting to remove the rifleman class completely lol. What we are suggesting is that the SAW and Grenadier kits be on the kit menu or at the very least, requestable an infinite number of times to ONE individual within the squad.

Why would ANYONE pick a rifleman over an automatic rifleman, or grenadier? The answer is: they wouldnt.

The automatic rifleman kit has no scope, so yes, some people do prefer it over the automatic rifleman kit. It is more accurate, has long range, easy to pop out, and is good in close quarters for spraying and preying from the hip. Of course most people would take grenadier over rifleman, but it lacks CQB hand grenades, so on some maps, it isn't as beneficial. But no one is advocating an entire squad of SAW and Grenadiers.

However in real war situations (and talking about conventional warfare here on a massive scale, not just the kind in iraq and afghanistan currently) the majority of a fighting unit will be issued standard rifles.

I just stated on the previous page that fireteams are built around the automatic rifleman. Not having one in a squad at all times is not realistic and doesn't allow a squad/fireteam to actually manuever under fire. Everyone dies, and there are far too many times when people cannot get the Automatic Rifleman kit that it limits suppressing fire and movement of a squad.

So instead of being able to utilize the fire and manuever system the DEVS implimented, they are screwing it over at the same time because people can't get the weapon/kit that was created for that sole purpose half of the time.

Besides the real life implications, the effects on gameplay are quite severe. Giving every soldier super weapons basically means even if you WANTED to just use rifleman in your squad, it will be a useless strategy since all other players will be taking advantage of all the more powerful weapons at all times.

The only "super weapon" in this game would be the Officer kit. You seem to have it backwards by not thinking it doesn't have an advantage over regular weapons.

1. Pistol
2. 3 patches
3. 2+ smokes

I can rack up plenty of kills with any weapon ingame, but with the officer kit, I am a force to be reckoned with. And as I previously stated, the SAW takes forever to bust out, has no scope, and isn't accurate unless prone.
Grenadier is better of course, but the nades are only good at long range and are still very inaccurate at that. It usually takes me at least 1 shot out of 2-3 to even hit something.

Besides all this, I think with the new changes its actually going to be EASIER for a well organised team to request kits, and certainly more logical. Mechanized Infantry squads will virtually never have an issue with requesting kits, since {b]all kits can be requested from the back of an APC[/b], so you wont be "running all over" to get your kit.

I would rather rely on my own squad's RP rather than an APC, a huge target to give away our position.

If I recall, this same exact thing was done in 0.6 or 0.7 and it was horrible IMO. APCs were running people over while requesting kits, people were requesting HAT kits from an APC just to use them against 1 target then run, snipers were becoming prevalent in squads cus they were so close to a request spot, etc.

No offense, but this is history repeating itself all over again from the sound of it.

gazzthompson wrote:Search:Keyword(s): spawn, selection, kits

right, ive always thought this and with kits not being able to be requested from RP's in .85 figured id suggest it.

basically it would be handy for squads and more realistic if there was a SAW/grenadier/marksman(?) (and maybe not a LAT cause might be OP with 4/5 LATS on field?) in the squad at all(unless dead) times.

i haven't don't much (any) research into squad weapon layouts and the fact that RL squads are mainly 8 persons? might need for the kit layout to be changed slightly. but a weapon like a SAW and UGL should be in a squad at all times for realism and for use for the squad and wont be massively OP. maybe not so much with marksman and LAT because we only have 6 spots (one for medic and one for SL).


implementation:

add SAW,grenadier and either/neither/both marksman and LAT to spawn screen and have it squad specific on limitations. is that possible ?

so yea, just me thinking out loud, might be suggested b4 but w/e.

I am just posting to support the original post. I have been regularly rooting to bring back the 1 LMG I always want in the squad for using realistic suppression tactics. The LMG is currently not worth the effort of even trying to find one, even though it is an essential instrument for a full squad. One should be available to a full squad EVERY time the LMG gunner respawns.

Cheers Gazz fro bringing this up. It would so increase my enjoyment of the game.

No one is suggesting to remove the rifleman class completely lol. What we are suggesting is that the SAW and Grenadier kits be on the kit menu or at the very least, requestable an infinite number of times to ONE individual within the squad.

python coders have tried many different ways to do this, all were exploitable or too hard to code. And by making auto rifle/grenadier class avaliable to anyone and everyone, you ARE effectively removing the rifleman class, as like I said, no one is gonna opt for a standard rifle if there is more effective weapons avaliable. And by that, no one is going to use realistic fire and manuver and suppression fire tactics if EVERYONE has loads of grenades and machineguns.

Until someone comes up with a system to enable limited kits with no exploits, this suggestion cannot happen, because like soldier of fortune says "history repeating itself all over again"...

The current ratio of rifleman to specialized kits is actually a prety good ratio if you take time to notice in game... rifleman is the CORE of an infantry, and remains so in PR. Yes the auto rifle is important, but allowing everyone access to one means EVERYONE will have one, as was seen in previous versions. Allowing only 1 selected individual in a squad to respawn with one of course would be ideal, but no system has been able to handle that (yet) without exploits that would completely ruin balance and realism.

I WANT SPEC OPS IN THE SPAWN MENU, SNIPER TOO.

but allowing everyone access to one means EVERYONE will have one, as was seen in previous versions.

There was a version when everyone used a SAW? You mean no-one. Which would be every version. There should be a minimum of 1 in each squad. It should be closer to 2.

Increase the zoom on the scoped weapons
Remove the scope from the Grenadier
Give rifleman a working ammo bag and a pistol

Regarding the "no one will ever take rifleman" argument, I think if it would drastically change if only the rifleman had the scope (and marksman and sniper, of course, but I'm not talking about those).

I really think LAT and Grenadier should not have it, it would really balance things out, since right now - as fuzzhead said - they are basically rifleman + super weapon - hand grenades. And although I'm personally very fond of both these kits, I would hesitate before selecting them on many maps if they had no scope.

In fact, I would also understand if the SL didn't have a scope. That would leave the rifleman as the only regular kit with zoom, a huge advantage on many situations, which would indeed make it a very common kit.