Coalition kills Collaborator = Instant death

[McBumLuv]

Oh cry me a river please

stop trying to get shot don;t throw the rock if you cant take the spawn time

I seriously hope this is sarcasm...




I have 1 question for you: Do you or have ever play as a civi in pr 0.8?

[McBumLuv]

Just FYI, if you shoot them with the shotgun it's the same as if you knife them.

If! IF!

I still stand by my previous post outlining dynamic punishments (look on page 2 of the forum)

[bloodthirsty_viking]

the only problem with this i see is in .75, i was playing as brits on al-bashar (or w/e), and the hole enemy team ecept like 5 went civi. the battle was ocross a river. full server, they kept on throwing rock and the insergents with guns hid behind 2 or 3 civies and shot us from behind them, making it impossible to make it over and win.

[Proff3ssorXman]

I'm in support of Ablacks ideas except for the TK idea.

3 Tk's and then insta-death = okay.
2 civi kill and then insta-death = good (2 because the first serves as a warning)
Then everything else if fine by me.

Good Suggestion.

[baptist_christian]

I suggest giving a much stiffer penalty to players who kill collaborators.

The current system of punishment for the coalition who kill collaborators is simply not enough of a deterrent for
(I would say) 99.9% of players.

Players don't give a **** about killing a collaborator and most of the information I'm hearing is
"hey if they're going to throw rocks at me they're going to die"

Since the inception of the long spawn times for collaborators on any given round you'll be lucky if one player out of 32 decides that the kit is worth it.



Since 0.8 has arrived I've chosen the collaborator class approximately 20 times and out of those 20 times I estimate I've been shot 16-17 times (indicating the lack of regard in choosing targets),
twice I've fallen off something ie a building
(which results in a "suicide" punishment for me ie 5 minute spawn time)
and I can only recall being handcuffed/knifed 3 times total.

All in all, every time I've chosen to go collaborator I've ended up totally frustrated and either quit out of the round or sworn to never choose the collaborator class EVER again,
which is where I stand now.


And since I get punished with long spawn times when a coalition soldier couldn't give a toss about how the game is meant to be played.........
I simply refuse to choose the civi kit ever again.
If my squad leader asks me to choose the collaborator kit on my next respawn my answer is NO!

I don't get any enjoyment out of staring at a black screen for long periods of time
and if the enemy team isn't willing to play ball then neither am I.

Which is why I suggest forcing players to play ball.

I have a strong feeling that if players are penalised with death for shooting a collaborator that they will very quickly learn to abide by the ROE (rules of engagement) and designed gameplay and start to actually try to identify their targets instead of having a shoot first ask questions later attitude.

You could actually use the excuse and have a message show up on screen while your waiting to respawn
"you have been brought in for questioning after your acts of aggression on civilians"


This "instant death" idea could also possibly be carried over to team killing
"you have been brought in for questioning after a friendly fire incident"


I think it was RO (Red Orchestra) which I used to play a long time ago which had death as a penalty for killing team mates,
which seems like a great idea to me don't you think?
Think of the tards and griefers that join servers just to team kill, our Oz servers have their fair share of them,
wouldn't instant death make their job harder.

Would stop people from going on rampages killing teammates left, right and center and at the same time force all players to choose their targets properly.

But team killing = insta death is not what this thread is about, hey it's an idea, take it or leave it.




I don't think I can explain it any better or suggest any more than I have why I think it should be implemented,
all I ask is that you (the developers) consider this idea as a valid one.

I expect that all the people who don't care about shooting collaborators and who don't care about the dev's attempt to make another side of gameplay by including the collaborators in PR will hate this idea and you will probably voice your opinions here.

And since it's been made aware to us that the dev's aren't really fussed if we like something or not and they make the mod according to how they see fit
I'm more interested in the dev's opinion of this suggestion and hopefully an R-DEV or two can give me some feedback.

Peace out

1 problem though

its not reality. You're not shot on the spot for accidentally killing a civilian collaborator

oh and BTW, I'm pretty sure that Civies calling in the coordinates of coalition forces and spotting for mortar and artillery rounds aren't ****ing civies.

[Ablack77]

Oh cry me a river please

stop trying to get shot don;t throw the rock if you cant take the spawn time

Wow! Thanks for the constructive feedback, I'm amazed at your level of maturity, your attitude, intelligence
and especially the level of respect you've shown to a person who has taken the time out of his day to make a suggestion.


Clearly you didn't read through the suggestion properly
or even make any attempt at understanding why I made the suggestion,
maybe next time you should save yourself the embarrassment and not bother posting.

+1 to your sh*t post count though.


Also like to thank Astromici for his constructive criticism to.

Dumb idea

[sentinel]

The system is weird, because if the coalition soldier shoots a civi both of them get 2 minute spawntime. Coalition should at least lose tickets for killing civis. Ok throwing the stone is a sign of aggression , but if I would be covered in kevlar I wouldn't shoot the guy. In actual news you see people throw molotows coctails against riot police and they don't return fire. Remove the rock and replace it with aggressive shouting and taunting.

Without civis the insurgency ins't insurgency. I think that civis shouldn't even be captured for intel, they should just be there to add chaos to battlefield.

Instant penalty for TK isn't going to work, because actual accidents do happen. But I hate it too, when the cobra clears the wrong rooftop in Muttrah and gets six TKs. That is not just another "accident" thats your going to jail kind of an accident and you will never gun cobra again.

"Everybody can fire a gun, but it takes a cowboy to know when to shoot."

[McBumLuv]

Ablack, what do you think of my idea concerning dynamic punishments? It could be used with a "points" system so that each offense adds up during each life. IE tk once over 50 meters and kill a civi over 50 meters = insta-death punishment.

[White Rock]

1 problem though

its not reality. You're not shot on the spot for accidentally killing a civilian collaborator

oh and BTW, I'm pretty sure that Civies calling in the coordinates of coalition forces and spotting for mortar and artillery rounds aren't ****ing civies.

YES, YES HE'S IS NOT, HE IS NOT REALISTIC WELL DONE.

So is "respawning" at rallypoints, wrenches rebuilding bridges, piloting a tank with only two men or many other things in pr. It's because it's SIMULATING SOMETHING.

Collaborator is SIMULATING the fact that it's a city, with civilians and so on and so on and that you can't just jdam a whole city because some terrorists might be hiding inside it.

THE ONLY ISSUE HERE IS IF WE SHOULD LOWER THE PUNISHMENT OF THE COLLABORATOR , THE COALITION FORCES PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE HIGHER OR IF WE SHOULD JUST REMOVE THE THING ALL TOGETHER!.

[google]

The main concern I have with this idea is accidentally killing collaborators. I don't believe someone should be punished with an instadeath just becuase of deviation or lack of proper target identification (which is a large problem for armor due to the lack of detailed geometries rendering at long distances). This is why I don't like the civi system in the first place. If there is a target rich enviroment and civis mingle about in it, that civi will most likely die. Thus, I find this idea very stupid.

It's also incredibly unrealistic.

So is "respawning" at rallypoints, wrenches rebuilding bridges, piloting a tank with only two men or many other things in pr. It's because it's SIMULATING SOMETHING.

Just because many aspects of the game are not realistic does not mean we can't push to increase realism. By your logic, this game should turn into a copy of the AIX mod. Also, this idea is not at all realistic and therefore not actually acting as a Simulator.

Clearly you didn't read through the suggestion properly
or even make any attempt at understanding why I made the suggestion,
maybe next time you should save yourself the embarrassment and not bother posting.

+1 to your sh*t post count though.

It also pisses me off how you play the maturity card when you react in this manner and bring up post count (which is honestly not at all reflective of one's intellect or the value of one's post).

[Ablack77]

Ablack, what do you think of my idea concerning dynamic punishments? It could be used with a "points" system so that each offense adds up during each life. IE tk once over 50 meters and kill a civi over 50 meters = insta-death punishment.

While I respect your intent McLuv it seems pretty complicated and not just for players
I imagine adding dynamic punishments for being inside a vehicle or not, <50m or 50+ etc
would either be impossible due to the bf2 engine or just too hard to implement for the dev's,
not to say your idea is a bad one it definitely has it's merits
and would end up being fairer than my suggestion on people who did accidentally kill civi's.

And I do get what you mean, I know I've killed a civi or two during my time and it's super easy when your in a vehicle
(especially if the vehicle in question doesn't have any zoom),
the adrenaline is pumping and your trying to kill every insurgent that might have an RPG before he get's you first.

But I guess out of the....say for example 1000 rounds of PR I've played (just guessing)
I could probably count on one hand how many civi's I've killed,
I get that you and your friends have all killed civi's by accident in the past and sometimes it can be hard to tell which ones are the civi's
but I really think if you knew the "you've been brought in for questioning" punishment was in place and peoples mindset changed
(which I believe such a punishment would do)
then there would be a lot less "accidents".

But don't take my comments on your idea too seriously McLuv,
it's not important whether or not I like your idea it's only important whether the dev's like it
(or in fact even read it, which most of the time I'm not sure they do)
Normally I try not to pass judgment on other people's suggestions
(there are exceptions and I will usually say something if I strongly disagree)
but since you asked what I thought, you got it.

The way I see it the suggestion forum is a tool for the dev's
but most seem to see it as a place to pass judgment on other people or their ideas and rarely do it with any respect.


But really mate any suggestion either of us make is moot as R-DEV Eddie Baker has stated[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Eddie Baker;896259']A collaborator is not a civilian, but an unarmed enemy combatant. Binoculars in your hand and by your eyes make you a legit target, because you could be spotting for indirect fire.[/quote]
(More confusion because they are referred to as civi's, collaborators or civilian collaborators depending on where you look)

I only wish his statement wasn't so short and he bothered to enlighten us all as to why you get a penalty for shooting a legit target.
I've been playing since 0.5 and thought I understood the whole civi thing but clearly I don't.

Maybe the dev's have overlooked the reasoning behind civi's because I can't seem to find much in the guide(s).



[quote="google""]It also pisses me off how you play the maturity card when you react in this manner and bring up post count (which is honestly not at all reflective of one's intellect or the value of one's post).[/quote]

Wasn't going to bother with this but,

Do you think if someone is rude and incredibly immature I should react with chocolates and roses?
Honestly, what did you expect?

"You get back what you give out" as the saying goes....

I removed a lot of what I really wanted to say because it would've been rude and unhelpful
which is more than I can say for R.J.Travis and his post.

Interesting how I piss you off but pathetic "Oh cry me a river" posts don't.

[abbadon101]

I'm not a fan of the idea for TK = intant kill. The current system where you choose to punish or forgive works in my mind as this way if it was a genuine accident then it should be let go.

In Iraq during 2003 the British troops had huge problems with "dickers", unarmed 'civilian' colabrators who would spot for mortar or RPG teams. They were "safe" due to the ROE as they thourght being unarmed they weren't a legitimate target, but as the are hepling take the life of a coalition soldier then they are just as dangerous as the man with the mortar or RPG.

British troops were told to treat these "dickers" as legitimate enemy targets as no-where in ROE does it say that just because the target is unarmed, doesn't mean hes not a threat.

Im not saying that there should be no punishment for killing a "civi" as this would stop people trying to capture them, but an instant kill is not fair either.

Reducing the spawn time for them is a good idea as well as upping the spawn penalty for coalition troops who kill them (say 90 sec per "civi").

[White Rock]

Just because many aspects of the game are not realistic does not mean we can't push to increase realism. By your logic, this game should turn into a copy of the AIX mod. Also, this idea is not at all realistic and therefore not actually acting as a Simulator.

Maybe I've made my point is unclear. My main issue is when people try to bring in realism with no suggestion at gameplay, and any suggestions to actual gameplay is overshadowed by "THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS IN REAL LIFE!" repeated 15 times over.

Yes i agree the focus is on realism, but only secondary to gameplay.






I mainly think the problem is not the spawn time anymore since it punishment keeps the civilian in check. The main problem is the coalition forces firing freely at em even if they see that they clearly are civilians.

How about just lowering the limit to be arrested from three too two? Not many are even willing to play civilian so this would not be a problem for anyone not too triggerhappy.