Project Reality Forums

Posted: **2009-04-15 21:17**

along with the .9 medic tweaks, i think just removing the RPs would do the trick (although i am not 100% decided on RP removal yet). i am certainly for tweaking the revive system, but i see no reason to remove it.

reviving is very important to keep the squad together, but i dont like the fact that we can wait for a medic to spawn on the RP to revive us. i can just grab a beer and wait 1 minute while the medic comes from the RP to revive me, even though he was killed in the same firefight i was. that just seems wrong, in my opinion.

i also dont like how you can pick up a fallen medic's kit off the ground. is there any way to code it so that only the medic kit dissappears instantly at death? or is it all or nothing?

Posted: **2009-04-15 21:41**

Why not remove respawning altogether? The fear of getting shot will make sure people don't need to be revived because they aren't counting on their infinite lives and will actually stick to cover and move cautiously. Or you could put a limit on the amount of times a certain player can respawn...

Posted: **2009-04-15 21:54**

I think medics are a critical part of Inf teamplay.

I do think having medics makes the squad. PR is an outstanding game because of squad work.
Medics give squads survivability. If you're squad survives, you probably will be revived/healed. I always play for the squad. I am not worried about my own well being, as much as I am worried about my medics SL and other shooters.

The squad is the soul of PR. I am against anything that takes away from the squads ability to act as a unit, and keep together. If every one who dies has to respawn at a FB or main, they aren't with the squad. To me, that means the squad is dead.

Take away RP, the squad will manage. Take away FBs, the squad will manage.

You can't due away with medics. If you did, quite a few people would still try to manage and go through maps. This might work for AAS etc, but Ins mode would be unplayable in it's current form.

As for the fear of getting shot. PR already has that. Any time you're in a good round, or defending an asset. You feel pressure to stay alive and do your job.

I see some ideas for making deaths less desirable. People will get used to it, or leave. Look at counter strike, you only get one life per round. That does not put fear into the average player. As a veteran gamer. The only time I feel the "fear" of death is when I'm pressed to do something, zero fail mode. I cannot fail, if I fail bad things will happen to my team. Most of the ideas I see are very interesting, but in the end I feel they will serve only to make PR less fun to play.

Posted: **2009-04-15 21:56**

- having such a brutal combat environment (die with no respawn / lets say no RP) means as a squad leader, you need to have your shit EXTREMELY well together if you intend to run a well disciplined squad that follows orders. If you slip up one second and get someone killed, the guy that got killed is much less likely to follow your orders in the future. There is no saving grace, he got killed and its your fault, and damned if he wants to walk all the way back from base again just to get killed again because you gave him a poor order. With the current revive system, its much easier to gain the trust of your squad. This is very important in a public game as you may not have ever played with the guys in your squad before and getting them to trust your judgment and follow your orders is usually a difficult task already in the current game, but many players are successful at this.

JMerriam-Webster Online Dictionary wrote: : work done by several associates with each doing a part but all subordinating personal prominence to the efficiency of the whole

"Teamwork is Based Upon Success: By Sir Issac Newton, and CAS_117"

Work (W) = Force (F) x Distance (d)

If

F = 99999 kilo Newtons - Your effort

and

d = 0 meters - Your Success Rate

then

(99999 kN) x (0 m) = 0

W = 0

0 Joules of work

No work has been done.

Therefore:

Team + Work = Team(work)

Team + 0 = Team x (0)

Team = 0

One solution is to only push small objects. The other could be to use a bulldozer.

Posted: **2009-04-15 22:02**

I have nothing against the reviving system. What bothers me is the HEALING system: a medic gets shot to death, and someone revives him; next step is the medic healing himself for 10 seconds or so and there you go! He's ready for another bullet in the heart... and the same applies to when he is shot to near death.

Soldiers could get ressuscitated, yes, but healed somewhere else, like in the old suggestion of a medic tent, medical center or something.

Posted: **2009-04-15 22:18**

Revive system is fine. Its better than fine.... its totally awesome. The main problem is there are too many cases of just "wounded" and not "dead." Most body and head shots should go straight to death, whereas leg/arm shots should result in "wounded" state.

Not sure if this ^ is even possible - but my main problem is that I can kill a guy 7 times in a row, and the medic can just keep reviving him. I just think revives happen far too much to simulate realism. The revive mechanic should NOT be a substitute for a medic patching up a teammate while he's still alive.

But, if that is not fixable, I'm more for keeping a medic's revive in rather than getting rid of it altogether. It adds a lot of depth to the medic class, and honestly, I don't think it happens too much to make it such a huge issue.

Posted: **2009-04-15 22:36**

TBH much as everyone might like, you cannot truly seperate out three game items
A - respawn time
B - respawn method
C - reviving
Confusing as that may become, they are each inextricably linked, changing one and not the others is not a solution. Now everyone implicitly or explicitly knows the medic class is a problem - it has been tinkered with inconclusively in almost every PR iteration.

The options for each of the above can be summed up below (all other ideas are immaterial as they are not solutions):

A: respawn time
1 - 30-60 seconds down time
2 - Wave spawning every x minutes

B: respawn method
1 - keep rallypoints
2 - remove rallypoints

C: reviving
1 - magic epipen
2 - no reviving

Currently we have A1, B1 and C1 - which is still less than satisfactory. My preference (as a war sim'r) is for A2, B2, C2 - aka wave spawning, no convenient rallypoints and no magic shock paddles ... er ... epipen. The solution is somewhere in between?

Posted: **2009-04-15 23:23**

Ghost1800 wrote:What, wave spawning like in 1942? Is that doable?

sure! why not. its just a matter of timing them, right? i mean if they can get the spawns not to work when 3 enemys come into proximity with it, its doable right?

plus i would rather leave mainbase with a bunch of guys on mumble who were as unsuccessful as i was than having my *** kicked, sent back to rally only to check the map and see my squad members "steaming" from the rally like a chain of ants walking into trouble. which i think is, (and i have chosen my words wisly) retarded.

And when i think of it, the transport trucks spawn at mainbase, i mean... the gameplay dynamics are already there and in place (the vehicles the death timer) all we need now is the option to spawn on a blinking spawnpoint. because we know that if the rallys down, there will be a bunch of guys at main to greet me.

Also, i dont know why it hasnt been tryed yet, but im pretty sure its because nobody has bothered to try it. lol

DAMNIT WHAT A BAD TIME FOR JAYMZ TO BE EXTRODITED!!!

Posted: **2009-04-15 23:36**

My opinion:

Revives must stay, critical to teamwork and as Fuzz says, immersiveness. Revives build dependencies between squad members, you remember the guys who save your ***, they give you the ability to stay with your squad in the action zone, a second chance if you like. All the examples Fuzz mention I agree with, especially arma, as examples of how games with no revives seem to feature less teamwork between strangers. Arma 2 is featuring revives and healing for this very reason I believe.

I think something needs to be done to prevent multiple revives, insta-revives and introduce a bit more death into the situation, but I think the action itself is very important to have in the game.

Posted: **2009-04-15 23:39**

Jonny summed up an approach that I think we all need to consider more carefully. This, to me, seems like the most realistic and teamwork-favoring solution.

When people are injured, and bleed out, they can be revived.

When people are shot and die immediately (shot to death) then they can't be revived.

Additionally, I would argue that people should only be able to die from bleeding out once, then they die and must respawn.

This adds yet another layer of realism (someone shot once and bleeding can be healed by medics in real life, someone who takes numerous rounds from an automatic weapon and dies...dies), and it also encourages teamwork. If a medic takes care of someone who is bleeding, then their squad (and as a result, the whole team) will be rewarded.

Not exactly related to the discussion, but important: removing rallies increases the importance on FB's, encourages tactical and teamwork oriented behavior.

This seems like it oughta satisfy both parties...CAS_117 and fuzzhead, do you like this idea?

Jonny wrote:I can see how being able to revive helps, but I can also see the 'gamey' side of it. There are situations where it IS a good thing to have, and situations where it is very bad. IMO there is a clear line to be drawn between the two.

So I propose this system:

When injured, you bleed. Just like now. Same speed, same effects.

When you 'die' due to bleeding, you lay there with your kit for up to 5 mins with the option of giving up. Just like now, but the kits stay longer.

The difference is here:
When you die due to being shot/grenaded/blown up/run over you 'die' in a way that you cannot be revived from. You are really dead, not just injured.

Hopefully its similar to whats coming next release.

You can fall off as many cliffs as you want still be revived (if they weren't too high), but the moment you are killed by being hurt by the enemy, you are out for good. If you get shot and escape, you will survive. If you get shot to death, you will have to respawn. If you injure, but dont kill the enemy, they can be revived. If you shoot/nade/crush someone to death, they will not get back up.

Removing the rally point spawn here will help a lot.
As will adding a system to heal from the rally so long as there are no enemy trops nearby.
If you rush at the enemy, and get shot to death, you will have to spawn far back at the FO. If you sneak up and attack, and subsequently break contact, you can be healed (!!! or revived if you bleed out !!!).

This will effect squad cohesion because the more the squad is willing to break contact, the longer the squad will live for & the more they are likely to be revivable. If you have a long living squad you can keep them together. Sure, you could run in and attack, but doing so will mean you are guaranteed to spawn at the FO rather than be revived. Reinforcements behind you cannot revive a soldier who has been shot to death, even if they do control the area. The more willing you are to fall back, the more easily it will be for reinforcements to get you back up even if you are over-run. It plays right into the hands of those who play cautiously and employ contact drills.

This would mean you have to keep the long spawn time for everyone, though. 30 secs is probably enough if there is a massive penalty which is proportional to the points you have gained so far when you die. Halving your total score on every death would work well IMO, without being too hard to code. It tends to twice the average number of points you gain per life, with a large number of deaths.

Posted: **2009-04-16 00:01**

I would like to keep the revive, but if you are revived and get schot again within 3 (or 5) min you are Dead...

real good reason to fall back, isnt it?

... and why not connect the SL with his rally, if he dies the rally disapears... would make the Officer an high priority target again.

oh and making the Medic a requestable Kit (6 kits 5min respawn like the AR) would help too, doesnt it?

Posted: **2009-04-16 00:42**

General_J0k3r wrote:@alex: if you have the current damage settings there's a good chance you'll die/get critically wounded pretty quickly. if you remove the revive everyone who gets shot will have to walk from rally/fb. there goes squad cohesion. atm it's kinda doable to keep a squad together. would be near impossible on pubs without the revive (unless you get SL spawning back which I think will never happen )

Logistics. Either keep reviving out or make it a much more profitable job, as nobody ever seems to do it.

Posted: **2009-04-16 05:42**

I agree the medic/revive system is key to holding a squad together; you run away, you will most likely not be coming back if something goes wrong.

On the other hand, the revive system is too effective. It needs to have several penalties to stop it being abused and as I posted in another thread, PR is slowly starting to resemble Vanilla again with the whole medic spam thing.

1. As somebody else suggested earlier, if your medic goes down, all you have to do is pick up his kit and get back to work. This has to go, just make the medic kit disappear very quickly compared to the other kits. Surely this is doable?

2. You can only be revived once every 5 minutes. Get shot after you've been revived within this time and your down for the count; I really don't see why in a game representing reality can have soldiers take waves of bullets and just get shot up with adrenaline (not sure whats in the epipens

) and be on their merry way.
Basically, a 40 second respawn when you die outright, and you still get the 2 or 3 minutes down wounded after being shot. With this, you still rely on your medic, but you also aren't invincible anymore.

3. One medic per squad. No more getting loads of medics jumping around everywhere yelling "clear" (Remind you of anything?).

4. The medic also can't heal himself with the medic bag anymore, but has to use his patches. Quite silly seeing as medics outlive everyone on the battlefield now. This would solve mounds of problems.

5. *Might not be possible* Medic has a delayed time to pull out his weapon compared to other classes. If he is healing someone, he shouldn't be able to whip out his rifle and down the enemy within a second.

I can't think of anymore at the moment but these are some possible fixes that wouldn't have to remove the revive system but refine it so it is a little more balanced and promotes more teamwork than it does now.

Posted: **2009-04-16 08:22**

Charity Case wrote:We basically already have a no-revive/no-medic mode: playing as Iraqi insurgents. And from what I've seen, there's significantly less teamwork and significantly more lone-wolf behavior. The funny thing is, when my squad manages to steal a couple blufor medic kits, we become much more cohesive.

I've had this whole death/revive/teamwork discussion a couple of times before. And, for me, it all comes down to how you want to influence player behavior: with a carrot or with a stick. You can either punish players for not working together, or you can reward them for helping each other.

I like carrots.

I think Insurgents don't play as team because they don't have rally point system.
I see alot of organized Insurgent side players When I play.

Not punish or reward player to control players behavior. As long as game is free and open to play for anyone many kinds of players will come to play this mod.

I think it is more about giving players an environment to work with, that is capable of realistic combat using realistic simulation of weapons wound effect etc. And teamwork will follow, because player who coordinates will win against uncoordinated.

But as some people say, in more realistic based game like ArmA peoples has less teamwork because they are not rewarded to play as team. That is not a Teamwork. That is Arcade Teamwork that only looks like teamwork. Teamwork is when you coordinate attack and execute plan as group to gain advantage against enemy. I feel people stick with medic in this game because it is easier way to run and gun right after you just got shot your self. But this advantage sure makes people looks like as if they are working as team. I never played ArmA but if they don't teamwork maybe environment is not realistic enough or every player just coindicently decided so or just looks like not playing as team.

Normal BF2 it self has reviving. Do they work as team?
Normal BF2 it self has low gun accuracy. But do they play as team to provide more firepower?

Considering about those facts, removing revive system will not reduce teamwork in bad way.

Removing revive system or adding evac makes game very, very realistic. Teamwork will follow when simulation is realistic. Because coordinating attack as Team will win against lonewolf. I think current system that pilots players to stick togather is not a realistic teamwork. A teamwork that is used to gain advantage over enemy. It is arcade like teamwork.

Posted: **2009-04-16 08:59**

Keep the revive,but change it from 100% wounded when shot (unless in a vehicle or .50+ in the head) to 40 % chance of wounded,60 killed.Right now people don't care
if they get shot - they know it's not fatal.
No chance of killing the enemy when shooting them - honestly makes no sense to me.

Posted: **2009-04-16 14:18**

Titan wrote: ... and why not connect the SL with his rally, if he dies the rally disapears... would make the Officer an high priority target again.

Now there is an idea worthy of its own thread..

Posted: **2009-04-16 17:16**

Psykogundam wrote: DAMNIT WHAT A BAD TIME FOR JAYMZ TO BE EXTRODITED!!!

Bye bye America...

Posted: **2009-04-16 17:50**

have you got one of the new psyko passports? you gotta apply in an irish embasy for one. you cant re-enter my Island without a passport that has the royal psykogundam seal on it. otherwise you'll end up spending half a week going through the "gud'luk'n'fuck'ya" papers.

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