AK-47 Accuracy... really?

[Ace42]

I can't remember how many times I got sniped by M16 while sniping US main base at Archer from 540 meter away.

Any rifle can reach that far. Even cheap WWII submachine gun. But Light & Fast 5.56mm can't do much damage to human being at 540 meter. Sure it will kill if you are lucky enough to shoot right on forehead. Even .22 pistol will do. But with bullet only being 4grams I highly doubt if its stopping power are left if any after about 200 meter. Even more so with short barrel M4.

I'm still waiting on the PR weapon stats to be tabulated so I can compare the bleed off of damage over range.

[waldo_ii]

w
let me ask this, if PR is so realistic then why do you pull the bolt back on your rifle every time you pull it out? in REAL LIFE that would eject a live round, giving you one less round in your magazine,


IT JUST LOOKS SO BAD *** TO CYCLE YOUR BOLT WHEN YOU PULL YOUR RIFLE OUT SO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU MEAN BUSINESS

I assume you are referring to the AR-15 animation(s). If you look at the animation, you find that the bolt isn't going back far enough to chamber/extract a round. What the avatar solder is doing is performing a simple chamber check to see if there is a round in there or not. That is how I interpret it.

also in REAL LIFE you dont have to slap the forward assist on the M16 after inserting a new magazine

While this is true, the author of the animations has consulted with a number of military advisors who volunteer to the project before publishing his animations. Plus, even if advisors said that soldiers didn't tap the forward assist for every reload, the AR-15 reload animations have to fit a specific time frame to be on par with other weapons of similar caliber (I use the word not necessarily in terms of bullet size), tapping the forward assist is a good, fluent filler for extra time space, and may be there just for cosmetic reasons more than anything else.

[Rudd]

wow you guys really think this game is a 1:1 scale of real life war and guns huh?
(which they do not in PR, I guess in real life GUNS NEVER JAM BECAUSE THEY DONT IN THE GAME) or

jamming couldn't be added in this game engine

when you insert a new magazine after your old one was completely empty, also in REAL LIFE you dont have to slap the forward assist on the M16 after inserting a new magazine

Are you an active/ex-serviceman? They do have a team of military advisors, but I'm sure Chuc asked them.

also none of the rifles in the game ARE DOUBLE ACTION you know how when your out of ammo and you click the mouse(pulling the trigger) the weapon keeps going click click click...

I think there is only one sound slot for the action of firing while out of ammo, and its that click.

[Outlawz7]

Here's a related question: does anyone even use the AK47 in-game? Whenever I play Chechens, Taliban or Insurgents everyone is using either AK74U or just the regular sights/scoped AK74 anyway.

[Rudd]

As chech I like teh ak47 so I get an RKG, 2 dudes with RKGs and a supporting RPG can do some serious damage to armour.

Not really a fan of the ak47 (or the 74) as INS atm, since the shotgun and AKsu are both better in CQB and have RKGs.

But its a fun gun, and I prefer teh 47 to the 74 for the higher calibre.

[dtacs]

The AK 47 is inacurate when fired automatically... it's the same in PR, just single shot, with spacing between shots and you'll be fine

No, not really.

Controlled spray at up to 40 meters is your friend.

[deemoowoor]

The m-16 uses the 5.56 and this goes futher than the 7.(cant remember the last bit) round the AK-47 uses. But it is not as powerful. This is one reason the M468 is in production, has range and power.

This is opposite, mate.

5.56x45 NATO has muzzle energy about 1,8 kJ and speed about 936-1000 m/s, depending on ammo type (bullet weight). Typical bullet weight is 3.56, with a heavier variant 3,95 g.

The AK's 7.62x39 has muzzle energy of about 1,9-2,05 kJ and muzzle speed of about 641-701 m/s, depending on ammo type (bullet weight) and make. Typical bullet weight is about 7,9 g.

Modern Firearms - Ammunition - Rifle and machinegun ammunition ballistics
5.56x45mm NATO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
7.62x39mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The slightly higher energy and 2 times heavier mass of the 7.62 bullet, compared to 5.56, and lower speed of 7.62x39 M43 makes it much more stable at longer ranges, because due to lower effect of air resistance, the bullet loses speed (and kinetic energy) much slower. As range increases, energy of 5.56 drops considerably compared to 7.62x39.

AK 47 and even AK 74 is known to have very low accuracy when fired in full auto or even 3-round bursts due to its heavy and imbalanced gas bolt construction (although being a very sturdy and foolproof design). But when fired single shots, it's as accurate as the shooter, because gas bolt movement only starts when the bullet is at the tip of the barrel (so only recoil is the major problem).

[AnRK]

Well, it just turns out that too many people think poorly of the accuracy of the weapon without ever having fired it.

From a couple of pages ago, but you do realise how many experienced military advisers this mod has? The change for the next patch isn't based on someone watching an uninformed hollywood shoot em up and deciding that neither middle eastern combatants, or their weaponry, have the capacity to shoot accurately.

[x.trEm*e]

Lol, don't let him fool ya. He's actually the biggest n00b

When I put the effort in, my squad is usually top scorer with a positive K/D,and I often get the best score, and mostly I get K/Ds of more than 2:1. But plenty of times I'm a n00b

my xfire is trekkyaaron if you fancy squadding up sometime.(got no xfire )

yeah I often have to bring my 2 other squaddies onto the ring and onto the right team and iGi is always bloody full... so yes mate when I´m around alone I gonna hop in for some rounds to see stats like 6 iGi´s one after another on top with figures like 3574 2378 72 2...



@topic: finally there are ppl who know what they are talking about without wikipedia and youtube
go and apply for PR DEV team as weapon and ammo pro

Here's a related question: does anyone even use the AK47 in-game? Whenever I play Chechens, Taliban or Insurgents everyone is using either AK74U or just the regular sights/scoped AK74 anyway.

Yep I do often as chechen and as taliban, it aint bad for some more controlled stuff than aks74u... And with the new patch only one dude will be able to use aks74u in the squad so that topic here is important

[deemoowoor]

@topic: finally there are ppl who know what they are talking about without wikipedia and youtube
go and apply for PR DEV team as weapon and ammo pro

Well, if you mean me, then I have to say I did use Wikipedia among my sources for precise data, along with http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am03-e.htm which is a great source of information about firearms on the Internet.

Despite concerns about the accuracy of Wikipedia, it is still quite useful to find basic information about almost everything, especially in scientific and technical fields. But of course, it has to be taken with a grain of salt, compared to other reputable sources and verified, if possible. Most Wikipedia articles do cite sources, so it's not always a problem.

Anyway, what I've learned is that PR is just a game with its own constraints, just like many others (America's Army, Battlefield games for ex.). You just can't model the real life that accurately and still have the game be fun to play etc. I think players can live with the fact that AK 47 shoots less accurately, especially if it's in an insurgent's hands -- you can easily imagine, that the insurgent wielding it is not well trained to use it.

I can say from my humble real life experience, that only a fraction of people can accurately shoot from different weapons. It takes considerable amount of training to shoot accurately, especially in practical combat situations -- where you have to move quickly and quietly, hide etc. You just don't get that much accuracy in real life, as you do with high-precision point-and-click devices.

If you want to see, how accurately does an average person shoot, go to a local practical shooting event. Not a high-grade one, the local one. You'll see that people will miss, shooting from a pistol even at almost point-blank distance (i.e. a couple of meters). You'll see them having their weapons fully unloaded and them staring at it without a clue, that it just needs to be reloaded. Because in real life it's not just CLICK-CLICK-CLICK-R-CLICK-CLICK-CLICK.

[hiberNative]

Here's a related question: does anyone even use the AK47 in-game? Whenever I play Chechens, Taliban or Insurgents everyone is using either AK74U or just the regular sights/scoped AK74 anyway.

i use the ak47 all the time since it hits harder and have more pronounced sights. the ak74 sights are still kind of unclear imo. coalition can sometimes take 2 ak74 rounds at a distance and run away. that doesn't happen very often with the ak47. but at close i agree that the 74-series are better cause of the recoil control.

[AnRK]

Well, if you mean me, then I have to say I did use Wikipedia among my sources for precise data, along with Modern Firearms - Ammunition - Rifle and machinegun ammunition ballistics which is a great source of information about firearms on the Internet.

Wikipedia isn't it's own sourcing as well obviously, you can make an informed decision on whether particular articles are worth paying attention to by their sourcing and the way they are written.

If you look up a probably rather highly viewed page such as the one on the AK the chances are that it's sources will be fairly solid (*edit* although having actually looked at the page just now there's sourcing from fox to the BBC to the UN, so that seems like a bit of a conflict of interest). If you were looking at a badly formatted and articulated page about a C-list celebrity and it had a section on the cocaine fueled night out where they ****ed a trio of low budget hookers after beating up a taxi driver and it was sourced "The Sun, pg 3, 7/5/2003" then you'd be right to be a tad skeptical.

[Sgt. Ostrander]

In PR the ak's do a lot more damage than all the NATO guns. Yes they may be inaccurate but you shouldn't be engaging enemies out to 300 metres or so. Besides, PR != RL, in PR the distances are smaller and so everything has to be scaled down a bit. Also, if you use the AK47 up close and personal it completely rips them to shreds.

Insurgents are strong at ambushes + really quite **** at firefights. If you want to be effective on insurgency then get a couple of friends and wait for a nice convoy to come into your killzone.

Exactly

[Masterbake]

The AK47 reins supreme in any kind of ambush, and that's where it's meant to be used. Taking out Marines at close range on full auto before they can engage you, with that nice high damage.

[Solid Knight]

When people talk about accuracy they rarely refer to the human element in the equation. The M16 has superior ergonomics, superior iron sights, lower recoil, and less warping when fired. The combination of these elements makes it so much easier to put rounds on target quickly and consistently. The AK47 requires more skill as a shooter to have the same results.

[Masterbake]

When people talk about accuracy they rarely refer to the human element in the equation. The M16 has superior ergonomics, superior iron sights, lower recoil, and less warping when fired. The combination of these elements makes it so much easier to put rounds on target quickly and consistently. The AK47 requires more skill as a shooter to have the same results.

You could argue that, but then it doesn't take as many successful hits to kill an enemy.

[JKJudgeX]

When people talk about accuracy they rarely refer to the human element in the equation. The M16 has superior ergonomics, superior iron sights, lower recoil, and less warping when fired. The combination of these elements makes it so much easier to put rounds on target quickly and consistently. The AK47 requires more skill as a shooter to have the same results.

First and foremost, you have to remember that you're shooting people with a really fast .22 bullet with the M-16.

1) Ergonomics
The ergonomics of the AK-47 are only slightly different or arguably worse if you're talking about the safety mechanism and the charging handle positions. These have nothing to do with firing. I regularly fire both weapons in real life. Unmodded, they are the same. If you start putting attachments on one, you can improve its ergonomics, and there is a tiny amount of validity to claiming that US troops have modded weapons while insurgents do not, but in reality, some insurgents have them to, red dot included.

2) Superior iron sights
This is true. The M-16 iron sight mechanism of "look through a hole" establishes an easier mechanism for an identical sight picture every time. The AK's methodology is very old. However, the difference is small, and technically, the M-16 should obscure significantly more of your vision than it does in game with iron sights.

3) Less recoil
This gets exaggerated in every single AR vs AK discussion ever. Yep, there's less recoil. That's because you're shooting a much smaller bullet. Furthermore, you have to remember that the AK is a few pounds heavier than the AR. That extra weight displaces some of the additional recoil. Can an AR stay on target better because of the lowered recoil? Yes. But here's the unspoken truth. It needs to do so more than the AK does.

4) More training
Nah, I'm sorry... acquiring a sight picture properly with the M-16 and learning to use, maintain, and understand the weapon as you need to in order to be a soldier takes a lot longer than learning the simplistic AK-47 system. Plus, there is no amount of "skill" that will give the AK-47 the same amount of accuracy as the M-16. You're propelling two very different sized/weighted projectiles with very similar amounts of gunpowder. However, the AK was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to excel at 300 yards or less (though it can, and does, reach farther than that if it has to). Most engagements in real life and in most PR maps happen within the 300 yard range... wherein the difference in accuracy between the two weapons is ALL WITHIN KILLZONE. In other words, you're able to hit repeat shots within a 1 foot radius at that range, and that's with a crappy AK and novice shooter, while the M-16 would hit within 6-8 inches at the 300 yard mark, they are both killing you... the AK rounds crushing more tissue at that range by far (M-16 penetration drops sharply at longer distance)... anyway...

Just watch some youtube videos, type "AK-47 vs. Monitor" and then "AR-15 vs. Monitor". You can easily see that when the AK hits the monitor, more plastic and glass blow out, and the whole monitor rocks backwards violently, while the AR just blows a hole in it and makes it jiggle a bit. You need almost 2 hits with an AR-15 to equal 1 hit with an AK.

Actually, required viewing if you really want to see the difference between the AK and the M-16 in terms of down-range damage. Project Metropolis results speak directly to Project Reality and other video games, and people who quickly claim absolute superiority for the M-16 (it's an awesome weapon and very fun to shoot, don't get me wrong, and very effective on the field, too judging by American Military results).

However, since no secondary projectiles are calculated in games (they do kill, blind, and maim people IRL), and the actual penetration is generally forgotten, yet the recoil is remembered and magnified, the AK-47 becomes underrepresented in terms of its on-field deadliness.

This is the weapon with more war history than any other, and is arguably the most fearsome rifle of all time... still in use, modernized in the form of the AK-103, and upgradeable... to see it treated as a second-rate rifle is just disappointing. Yeah, it's not as accurate as a rifle that fires a comparatively smaller round (this is always the case unless you greatly magnify the powder)... but it reaches through buildings and dismantles people and machines much more effectively, bullet per bullet...

Plus, my original argument wasn't *just* for the AK-47... even the M-16 is a bit mistreated in PR... ALL weapons should allow much faster follow-up shots in single fire mode, and far less recoil in full auto, in order to be realistic.

I do give benefit of the doubt to anyone who disagrees with these points, that they've actually fired the weapons, but if you haven't, please at least watch some youtube videos... some are extreme rubbish, claiming that the AK-47 or the M-16 is wholly superior to the other, but there are actually some solid comparison videos out there that highlight the strengths and weaknesses of both weapons. Neither is superior at the entire warfare task, and each is superior at a subset of each. You want to kill a squad that's in a building 200m to the SW? AK-47 wins. You want to pop an insurgent that is firing from a window 200+ meters away? AR-15 wins.

Sorry for the wall of text...

tl;dr version:
PR makes the firing task more difficult and inaccurate than it really is by a large margin, I'd like to see this reduced a bit, and the recoil of most weapons is really far off.

[sakils2]

I agree with hiberNative, we have another AK Jesus in here.

[Outlawz7]

JKJudge for hookers and blow award.

[Jaymz]

Wait until you play 0.86. It's not nerfed much at all.