Project Reality Forums

Or, in future versions if the AT kit is no longer required,
add a pilot class that contains a PDW with maybe 2 magazines
(1 locked and loaded, other in reserve), a knife and
a colored smoke grenade.

I like this kit idea. THe coloured smoke is pure genius = rescue missions ext.
I also think PDW would be good for pilots but i hate the idea nad i am sure taht any AT class will never be given a PDW.

I'd like each squad have limits - like it must have x number of assault kits etc...and you can only play if you join a squad

david2999 wrote:You can't assume that everyone but you is a dumbfuck that don't know how to use the AT.

I don't assume it. I tend to give every player the benefit of doubt. It's just that most of the time, I'm heavily disappointed by the teamwork and the teamwork capabilities on most servers (maybe this will change once the real PR community grows bigger and the 12-year-old vanilla BF2 players will start to leave their hands off this mod).

Instead you should tell them what they are doing wrong and perhaps they will listen..

Really, I tend to talk a lot with my team, I will tell squads which don't get the AAS order what to do, I will tell my squadmates how to resupply / heal, whatever, if they are new to the mod. It's just that a LOT of people don't even pay attention to the in-game chat / VOIP and run around like headless chickens ala vanilla BF2.

Then theres engineers that can plant C4 or mines, its not really hard to take out a tank if you know what you're doing...

It gets a lot harder when a lot of incompetent players block the important (albeit unpopular) classes.


I'll say it again;
What's the problem with everbody having the ability to CHOOSE what class they want to play ?
A good player can (and will) adapt to the situation and always play the class most required at the moment either way, if he has the freedom to do so.
A bad player will choose the class he wants to play regardless of gameplay circumstances - He will, however, play this class (even if it is currently not that important for the team) very dedicated because that's what he WANTS to play - this also gives newbies the chance to play around with every class and eventually adapt and realize when to play what class, and eventually they will become better players and start playing as AT / Medic / Engineer aswell, not just Support / Sniper.
In addition, with limiting the classes, a bad player will not only be frustrated by being forced in a certain class (and hence not contribute to the team), but he will also block the kit slot for the better players who would otherwise play this kit and actually help the team.

The way I see it, the class limit would NOT force bad teams to become better / enforce more teamplay, but it would, on the other, rather cripple the good teams which have a few odd newbies in them who will mess thing up.

Yep - class limits have a place in the REALISM factor of the mod. I have never seen battlefield in RL where 30 SAW gunners were suddenly grouped together

I somewhat agree with both sides. Back in 42 the only way to include more specialized weapons was through spawnable kits... in BF2 however we have "unlockables". I think I've said it before, but I think unlocks should be utilized to offer both more variety and a bit of balance. For instance, in AT Class case, base weapon could be an RPG-7/LAW type non-guiding rocket weapons, while unlocks could include stuff like Eryx, Dragon etc. That way, you start out with something "small" and more "balanced", but still give oppurtunities for players that want to put the effort into it to unlock those other weapons for more specialized and efficient weapons. It also might add a touch of realism into it, maybe? For instance, basic Assault class could come with a stock M16 without the M203 addition, and have standard frag grenades. The M203 could be an unlock, meaning that only more experienced, higher-ranked soldiers than your average green PFC get to use it.

hmm i don't like the idea of the longer playing players having better weapons and I am pretty sure this ISN'T the system the DEVs are going to bring in, if indeed they bring in any system.

From what I understand, the unlocks will work so as to offer you different load outs, for example as assault man you could take the M203 OR a SMAW. As Spec Ops you could take 4 SLAMs or a C4 etc...

david2999 wrote:You know what really IS frustrating? When everyone wants to be a sniper or support guy or when there's a tank and EVERYONE all of a sudden goes AT to defeat the tank.

I hardly see that happen to be honest, seeing how unpopular the AT class is. And good squads will communicate in order to clear up who will spawn as AT, avoiding this. I'm sorry if this happens to you a lot but honestly, how often does that happen ?
What I DO often see, on the other hand are people in my squad playing AT, with the rest of the squad medics / assault / support / you name it, having a tank approach and the AT guy TOTALLY messing up / running towards the tank (instead of shooting from cover), or, worse, NOT attacking the tank at all because the newbie AT guy has yet to look at the map and realize where the damn thing even is.
This is usually the point where I sometimes actually SUICIDE to respawn as AT to do the job myself, if I'm not dead already by then.
Now imagine all AT slots blocked by these guys.

Sure you should be able to pick your class but not everyone should be able to have the sniper kit or the support kit or the AT kit at once depending on the circumstances.

The thing is, I agree with this as in that it is totally unrealistic for a team to consist of only 1 or 2 classes in all.
But, as I said before, these teams usually won't win most of the fights (unless on imbalanced maps like a MEC team of Support only on Muttrah City, but these issues are map-dependant and will be balanced eventually) and it will sort itself out in a natural-selection kind of way. Survival of the fittest and all. At least that's my experience from my PR playing experience as of now.

For instance, lets say there's a map with a huge open area between the flags and theres plenty of buildings around this open area, now basically EVERYONE will automatically go sniper because its the easiest way to pwn the living hell out of whoever tries to advance, i can live with one sniper pinning me down but not 20 of dem fuckers as they respawn and get right back on the rooftops no matter how many times you kill them making it impossible to advance to the next flag.

Yes, I agree, this is incredibly stupid.
Again though, unless the map is heavily imbalanced (and will eventually undergo a rebalancing at one point), this team will hardly win because they won't score a lot for the fact that they are not taking lots of flags.

20 snipers on the roof defending the next AAS checkpoint in the order ? Request arty and get vehicles, they will be fucked. Have 2 or 3 Humvees / Vodniks drive to the flag, providing cover and they will be unable to defend themselves.

Again, this mod features so many possibilities to rule out people playing retartedly (i.e. team full of snipers) that you can easily get around them with a diverse squad.

If people would do this more, the 20-sniper-teams would eventually realize that this is not the way to win a match and adapt, creating more diverse teams by themselves, no limiting necessary.

Let my try to put it this way:

Take a look at Counterstrike.
I have been playing this game for ages (ever since Beta1 has been out actually).
Take a look at how people play this game these days; There are TONS of weapons available to play with in this game. Allthough you will hardly ever (in clan matches, NEVER) see anybody use the Benelli M3, the UMP, the SIG SG550 sniper rifle or the Dual Berettas.
EVERYBODY who plays decently will either use the AK47 / M4A1 depending on the team, or the AWM sniper rifle. You can't seriously compete against people playing these weapons with a shotgun or UMP.
The reason is that the game dynamics are largely "broken", in a way.
While the game offers tons of weapons, only 3 of them are really competitevely good, and the players have figured this out over the years, disregarding all the weapons except for the 3 forementioned.

The difference with PR is, that PR offers largely realistic battlefield game dynamics. In order to be successful in the game, you will have to adapt to these life-like dynamics in life-like ways, hence having a very diverse team of specialists each carrying out individual, important roles. You will NEED a medic at one point, you will NEED a sniper at the highground, you will NEED a support to lay down cover fire and you will NEED an AT to take out that tank.

A team full of snipers won't be able to capture the next flag, won't be able to take down a tank and certainly won't win.
If it is ABLE to win by playing this way, the map or game dynamics are broken, because they shouldn't be able to do that in real life, hence they shouldn't be able to do it in PR either.
You may say that a way to fix these "broken" game dynamics is by adding kit limits, which may or, as I think, may not be a solution to the problem.

What I would rather see is a more elegant approach that, while offering everybody the chance to play whatever they like, will force players to use classes by the overall gameplay, not by having a number-limit on kits.
People should start playing AT / Engineer / Medic because their team requires them to, not because a certain number of kits limits them to.

EDIT:

Another thought:
If, like you mentioned, a team decides to camp a city with 20 snipers and defend this city, then by all means they should be allowed to do so!
In real life, if I were to defend a city, what would I do ?
I'd set up TONS of snipers and machine guns. There is no need for Assault guys when I don't plan to play offensively.

The point is, that the game should not REWARD this kind of behaviour, yet it should be possible to do. If you decide not to capture anymore flags and set up a defense, maybe the enemy team won't be able to take this heavily defended city, but on the other hand, the tickets will eventually bleed your team to death, with the other team winning.

Also, like I already mentioned, just like in real life, even such a defense can be beaten with artillery support and vehicles.
Lots of snipers on the roof ? Place a Blackhawk on the map and mow 'em down.
Getting shot down by an Eryx ?
Congratultions! The defending team have just found out that ONLY snipers won't win them a damn cookie, and eventually the game will balance itself out.

I think this is a more elegant approach to the problem, seeing as this is a "reality" mod, you should be able to do pretty much everything you can do in reality aswell.
Sure, a team of 20 snipers defending a city won't happen in real life (because it won't be successful), yet it is POSSIBLE to do in real life, and it should be possible in PR aswell - just as the counter measures should be possible aswell.

I think that, when you give the players enough time with such an open-ended system of game dynamics, you will achieve the best possible result, having the players sort things out the best way possible by themselves, way better than having a very limited frame of gameplay and arcadey forcing people into roles.

People have done this with Counterstrike. They have found out, that, given the game dynamics and circumstances of Counterstrike, playing with only 3 weapons will yield the best results.
If the PR gameplay is able to reward players using very diverse teams, communication and teamplay, people will eventually go that route because it's the best possible route to win. If the PR gameplay rewards teams of 20 snipers, allowing them to win against a "realistic" team with lots of different kits, the game dynamics are broken and need to be reevaluated, because in real life, such a team wouldn't win either (yet it remains possible for people to do this in real life - there is a reason for why they don't. Teams in PR SHOULDN'T DO it for the same reason, even if they COULD DO it).

Another idea I think warrants exploration around class limiting is something like:
1. revamp the class system (which we're gonna do anyways)
2. only allow the basic rifleman type class(es) to capture flags

So .. yeah .. an entire team can go 5n1p3r .. but the team that is more balanced in composition should win.

Thoughts?

egg

2. is a very interesting idea. I'd like to see how that pans out in testing.

enforcing diverse kit usage shouldnt be done to heavy handed.

sometimes that moment where the game is unrealistic is its most fun, the unrealism breaks from the norm, adding a tiny bit of novelty to the situation.

the keys are to make sure such moments are rare. and to make sure that they are the result of circumstances that would be effectively served by such an approach.

If you dont want to play offensively. you want to be the defender. the game shouldnt cripple you from deploying only snipers on the second flag and LMGs on the 1st with a couple medics etc with them for resuply, minelaying, tank removal.

if the strategy calls for 2 medics, 4 assault, and 2 AT. no reason the other guys cant be 12 Snipers and 12 Support... theres balance still. its a unique ocasion that makes the game interesting, but has been kept from becoming totaly unrealistic by the presence of a few supporting troops backing up the well planed defence.

also id much preffer that assualt & spec ops captured flags faster. with assault a little faster again, and sniper a little slower... balancing the capture speed for individual kits by role would be good overall ... not just a Assualt only can cap flags unrealistic thing.

Burning Mustache wrote: EDIT: As for the "Admin will sort it out" comment;
I have yet to see an admin EVER kick a player in a PR game for retarted behaviour. Relying on "admins" to "sort it out" is basically admitting to not being able to create proper frame for gameplay. If you need an admin to get the people playing the game as intended, why bother with any rules / limitaions / etc. to begin with ?

We have about 2-3 admins on your unranked at any one time now

Anyway I have to agree with everyone who disagrees with the topic starter. Forcing class limitations on people is not going to work if you have a bunch of retards on your server well unlucky but forcing them on a different class is just going to make them annoyed and start to full around even more.

Heck if I was forced to play as support when I know that my squad needs an extra medic or extra Rifleman I would get incredibly pissed off to the point where ill just leave the server.

You also have to look at this, if you put in class limitations you have to make specific class limitations for every map in the game otherwise you end up with maps that become incredibly unbalanced because they just don't require and AT guys (which I'm sure a lot of people would get quite angry at)

As mentioned people don't need class limitations to work together, anyone with half a brain eventually figures out that they need to spawn as an AT guy or there squad needs ammo so lets spawn as a Rifleman.

What I find even stranger if people on these forums seam to have double standards of some sort, on the one hand (the Muttrah City thread) people don't want to balance the map because "if you work together you can win" and on the other hand you want class limitations because people don't work together.

2. only allow the basic rifleman type class(es) to capture flags

And what happens if my only Rifleman in my squad dies? I cant afford to wait 30+ seconds for him to spawn so we can capture a flag that will take 3 minute to capture because only one person in my squad can actually capture it.

I've seen the occasional outburst of US snipers (6 or so) when I've been playing on the 50Klicks server apart from that everyone has been working together, everyone who hasn't has eventually after 5 minutes or so realised that the need to go a specific class to hel the team.

I'll keep on saying it because it really is a pointless suggestion, class limitations are not needed.

If you're packing only one rifleman in your squad you've got a problem from the start. I think this is a good idea, but my main concern is that all the snipers and gunners are going to sit at the flag that ISN'T being captured and spawnrape while they wait for their buddies to arrive.

Malik wrote:If you're packing only one rifleman in your squad you've got a problem from the start. I think this is a good idea, but my main concern is that all the snipers and gunners are going to sit at the flag that ISN'T being captured and spawnrape while they wait for their buddies to arrive.

That would be good tactics imo. I mean .. er...... that's kinda how it works in real life if you are trying to secure terrain / objectives.

If your only rifleman dies, uh... well... that sucks, shoulda had more riflemen? A basic rifleman class will not be a sucky class, so don't worry about that, it should be decently fun to play.

Again .. the more I look at the possibilities of building a POLISHED class limiting system in the BF2 environment (polished from a usability perspective) the more I think we're going to spend a lot of time implementing a system that will be confusing for players and not that much more effective than a more organically balanced system.

egg

Malik wrote:If you're packing only one rifleman in your squad you've got a problem from the start. I think this is a good idea, but my main concern is that all the snipers and gunners are going to sit at the flag that ISN'T being captured and spawnrape while they wait for their buddies to arrive.

In any of the maps your squad needs almost one of every class, 1 Spec Ops, 1 Medic, 1 Support, 1 Engineer/Sniper, 1 At, 1 Rifleman. There isnt room for another Rifleman, you could substitute the Engineer or At on maps that dont have armor for another rifleman but that still leaves you with only two people captureing a flag, flags take long enough to capture as it is.

I just really dont see the need for a class limiting system and ive yet to here a good reason to have one.

The only game I know that does have some sort of class limiting system is AA but thats a different game altogether.

I think the idea about the capping seems quite reasonable.
Maybe it shouldn't be the riflemen class ONLY who may cap flags, but at least prevent, for instance, snipers from capping alltogether.

For instance you could have the Assault, Spec-Ops, Medic and Support class be able to capture flags.
Sniper, AT, Engineer could not cap and would have to be given independet orders alltogether.
This would be nice as it would give snipers a reason at the beginning of the round, NOT to fly / drive towards the checkpoints to speed up the capping (which they should do right now), but rather enable them to set up a nice position independet from the rest of the team from the beginning of the round.

I kinda like this idea actually. It makes sense to limit the offensive capabilities of otherwise defensive classes, and would encourage people to play with the offensive ones more.

But now you have no one playing AT or Engineer, they are already classes that people dont want to play because of the lack of a decent weapon stoping them from capping flags would basicly be removeing them from the game completely.

I've got just two words for those of you who doubt class limitations will work or are necessary, Forgotten Hope. They implemented it and it worked beautifully. It worked so well in fact, they are implementing it in their BF2 version as well. It gave the mod a whole new feel and best of all it made it more realistic. I leave the details up to PRMM on how to implement kit limitation but as far as the question as to do it, it should be obvious. PRMM NEEDS KIT LIMITS!

-Spanish

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote:I've got just two words for those of you who doubt class limitations will work or are necessary, Forgotten Hope. They implemented it and it worked beautifully. It worked so well in fact, they are implementing it in their BF2 version as well. It gave the mod a whole new feel and best of all it made it more realistic. I leave the details up to PRMM on how to implement kit limitation but as far as the question as to do it, it should be obvious. PRMM NEEDS KIT LIMITS!

-Spanish

Why does it need class limitation? I keep asking that and there hasnt been a sensible answer yet.

Are we all that dumb that we need a helping hand chooseing the right kit, to be honest if that many people dont know how to work as a team then mabye your right but so far ive seen around 60-70% of people work as a team after playing a couple of rounds.