Project Reality Forums

Well Gaz I like to think that every one in PRMM is considering the ball coefficient of their round, and general weather conditions etc.

But honestly Szarko I think physics are needing to be looked at a bit for realism in terms of snipers.

the.ultimate.maverick wrote:It is the Sight Unit Small Arms Trilux - the standard 4x op. sight in the British Army.

Used on the SA80 etc - it will be coming live in PR 1.0

Correction - the standard 4x sight in the British army that is soon to be replaced.

Why you correcting me?! I was correct...I didn't say it would be around forever but I heard it will be in 1.0

And an ACOG will just make my point even more valid

Gaz, I realize that a "bullet drop" wouldn't occur in reality on the distances we face in BF2, yet you guys seemed to have coded one withing the gameplay limits and ranges.

From my PRMM sniper experience, I have found out that I DO need to move my crosshairs a little above my actual target to score a hit on larger distances (take CP Abadan (or whatever it's called), sniping from the freight crane at the harbour to the other side of the river at the US base, for instance).
Maybe I'm just experiencing the "deviation-cone", but I got the impression that most of the deviation within that cone seems to make the bullet drop a little below the actual center of the crosshair, rather than any other direciton, which is why aiming a little above your target seems to yield the best results.

What I propose is to get rid of the "deviation-cone" from the sniper rifles alltogether (or at least make the effect VERY small) when going prone and lying totally motionless, and add a "bullet-drop" that will already occur at distances of 100m and above, to prevent "point-and-click" sniping (because in real life, hitting a target on a distance of 100m with an m24 with scope is absurdly easy) but add the range-finder scope so snipers, in order to be able to score proper hits need to gather some info on their target and adjust their aiming height accordingly.
The sniper kit would actually require a little skill to be used successfully and it would be quite fun aswell, I guess.

The "realism-vs-gameplay" argument is totally true, which is why the sniper rifles need to be crippled for the BF2 enviornment (again, we can hardly ever see beyond 300 meters, which is a ridiculously low distance for real sniper rifles), but just having a "deviation" cone which will make our bullet spread out totally randomly in EVERY direction is kinda lame.
Get rid of that and add a "bullet-drop", even at low ranges instead, but adjust the scopes in a way that we can adjust our aiming to that effect.

Eden wrote:What I would love to see is adjustable magnification on the Sniper Scope.

This has been suggested before. The official position of the Devs is that adjustible zoom will be put in when rifles with adjustable zoom are modelled. Not before. None of the sniper rifles in PR have adjustable zoom.

In short...

Deviation = unrealistic
Bullet drop = realistic, but not noticable at BF2 ranges...

long version-

If I was aiming at your chest and I was perfectly centered and you were stationary, as was I...then fired... Realisticly I should have hit you... Deviation can easily take the laws of physics and say F U and make it their slave... The scopes we have now are sufficient enough for sniping, and at least without deviation (or at least less) you could realisticly shoot a round and only have minor misplacement (if you still kept bullet drop). I cant count the times I have been maybe say 100 m away, or less and fired at stationary targets and seen the bullet hit around them, but not where I aimed.. I didnt see the scope move, or I guess that invisible force field around you is new... Maybe that chick from MGS 2 hooked you up... But I see no reason that we have to suffer this unrealisticness in a REALITY MOD... Thnx... dont flame me, because thats just my 2 cents on this serious issue.

Dylan wrote:In short...

Deviation = unrealistic
Bullet drop = realistic, but not noticable at BF2 ranges...

Essentially, yes.
Just as I have written above though, if we'd make the sniper rifles "realistic" in PRMM, they'd be totally overpowered.
If the rifles were accurate on 800 meters and above, sniping in PRMM would be just "point-and-click" killing. We need to "cripple" the sniper rifles to prevent this.
Currently, there is the "deviation-cone" system in place to make sniping a bit harder. Your bullet will hit anywhere within a certain cone betwen the end of your barrel and your target, the size of the cone being dependent on your current stance, the rifle used and the distance to the target.

Personally, I think this system is retarded because hitting with a sniper rifle on "larger" distances ("larger" on a BF2 scale, meaning 200-300 meters) is just a matter of luck, because the "deviation-cone" is not really predictable at all, and it's just pure luck.

Now a different system to prevent "point-and-click" sniping everybody could do (heck, 200 meters is ridicolous in real life for a sniper rifle), would be to add a "bullet drop" which would occur in real life aswell, though only at distances of 500 meters and above, I would estimate.
We would need to adjust this to PRMM's battlefields' scale - hence the bullet drop should occur already at 100 meters and above (NOT realistic, I admit, but suited to the overall game enviornment). To counter this, give the sniper range-finder binocs and a scope that actually enables you to make use of the dashes on your crosshair so you can estimate the distance and adjust your aiming accordingly.

It would take some skill to master this and prevent your average newbie from being able to score insane kills with the sniper rifles, while keeping a system that would make the sniper rifles PREDICTABLE and RELIABLE.

bulliet drop takes afew hrs to master. It would be far to easy.

What we really need is sway ect, but this dose not look possibal in BF2

Well BM I think an exagerated bullet drop system (we have it here) is a solution. And I know you will moan about this but an increased scope magnification to ~8x will help the sniper, yes, but will also generate a dangerous amount of tunnel vision which will weaken them significantly.

Of course the solution to this whole problem is ditch the sniper class and bring in the DM.

*Warning* Long post. I apologize.

Scopes

I was under the impression that the purpose of PR is to put realism before convenience or coolness, except in the rare cases where gameplay is seriously hampered. The M24 should have what it has in real life, it's that simple. A fixed 10X Leupold with the classic mil dot range finding reticle. If we are ever lucky enough to get the proper USMC sniper weapon, the M40A3, instead of the Army's M24, it would be appropriate to do it with a variable power scope. The Marines have begun to replace the old 10x Unertl scopes with the a new variable 3-12x Schmidt & Bender with a gen 2 mil dot. A good number of the British L96s also have a variable 3-12x Schmidt & Bender, but I believe it has the original mil dot. The SVD uses a fixed 4x PSO-1 scope which does have a parabolic range finder in the reticle.

Here is a comparison of the useless reticle the M24 has from BF2 and what the real mil dot and gen 2 mil dot look like. Changing (fixing) the reticle seems like the simplest solution to sniper ranging, and is clearly the most realistic. Dev Team, if you want me to help with this, I can make them in whatever format is easiest to implement. PNG?

Malik wrote:Increasing the zoom in real life isn't such an easy task, it takes a lot of adjustment and snipers don't do it in the field so often.

It is extremely easy to change the zoom of a scope. Just turn the ring to the desired number, it takes a couple seconds. Adjusting the parallax for focusing at varied distances is also very simple and fast. I do it all the time and it's no big deal. The only tricky thing is trying to range with any milling scope whose reticle remains static during changes in magnification. That of course makes the milling no longer actual milliradians at anything but the calibrated power. But I think that a scope the quality of the military grade Schmidt & Bender would have the front focus feature, so that the reticle magnifies along with the scope, maintaining its accurate milling.

Ranging

Giving the actual sniper class the laser range finder is neither realistic nor necessary. So there aren't any realism vs gameplay issues here, only "I want coolness" issues. And that's not PR. With the correct reticles, range can be found in the exact same way as real snipers use them. Lasers can be seen by whoever you are ranging, and it is very unusual for these to be used in the field by a sniper. That creates a realism issue. Giving laser range finders to the sniper class would only increase the number of snipers who can perform effectively, by lowering the skill of the craft. That hurts server gameplay. Please, make it realistic and make us work for it.

Ballistics

As for accuracy, I've done some LAN testing with a friend and I am totally baffled. The M24 seems be extremely precise. Meaning it hits the same spot every time on the same shot. The thing is, as you differ the shot (location and direction) it seems to shoot on a different line. Some shots it hits dead on, no windage, just bullet drop. Other shots require a half segment of windage. At first I thought, great there is wind! But when I stood at my target and shot back at my previous location, the bullet still went to the same side. That doesn't make any sense. That's twilight zone physics. It did not shoot in a random cone, it was precise round after round, but was different depending on the particular shot. Really weird, and most importantly, impossible to predict.

The M24 and M40A3, with the right ammo, can shoot 0.25 MOA, on a good day. That's roughly a quarter inch deviation per 100 yards/meters. The L96 shoots 0.3 MOA, and the SVD is 2 MOA. As long as the cone of fire is realistically accurate, I don't see any problem with there being one. Bullet drop is a known statistic for every round. I suspect the problem with getting the correct curve is the physics engine of BF2? With a scope sighted in at 200m, a medium weight 7.62X51mm round travels in inches from 100-500m approximately like this: +2, 0, -9, -25, -50 Whatever it is in PRMM 0.3, it seems okay, but I haven't done any attentive testing on this yet. I would welcome a little sway, if it were possible, in the kneeling or standing positions. But with the rifle solidly supported, as with the bipod when prone, it can be held perfectly still even by an average shooter.

*WARNING HARDCORE RESPONSE COMING*

Stecher wrote: A good number of the British L96s also have a variable 3-12x Schmidt & Bender, but I believe it has the original mil dot. The SVD uses a fixed 4x PSO-1 scope which does have a parabolic range finder in the reticle.

The standard Russian scope has not been the PSO-1 for a number of years now - they have switch to the POSP 8x fixed mag. scope. And the L96 is still a funny beast, some still use the 6x scope which was used in initial valuation, despite the fact, some have moved to the Schmidt & Bender scope.

Stecher wrote: It is extremely easy to change the zoom of a scope. Just turn the ring to the desired number, it takes a couple seconds. Adjusting the parallax for focusing at varied distances is also very simple and fast. I do it all the time and it's no big deal. The only tricky thing is trying to range with any milling scope whose reticle remains static during changes in magnification. That of course makes the milling no longer actual milliradians at anything but the calibrated power. But I think that a scope the quality of the military grade Schmidt & Bender would have the front focus feature, so that the reticle magnifies along with the scope, maintaining its accurate milling.

I presume from the way you talk you have done simple box, range change, tests on these rifles and scopes. I agree that in the large part scope adjustment for prone, standing, distance, elevation etc is easy to do in the training ground, especially with the Schmidt, but in BF2 you are simulating a relative close quarters style conflict with a high paced, high pressure scenario and people are shifting evelation, stance etc very often.

Stecher wrote: Giving the actual sniper class the laser range finder is neither realistic nor necessary. So there aren't any realism vs gameplay issues here, only "I want coolness" issues. And that's not PR. With the correct reticles, range can be found in the exact same way as real snipers use them. Lasers can be seen by whoever you are ranging, and it is very unusual for these to be used in the field by a sniper. That creates a realism issue. Giving laser range finders to the sniper class would only increase the number of snipers who can perform effectively, by lowering the skill of the craft. That hurts server gameplay. Please, make it realistic and make us work for it.

Yes, the ability to range estimate based upon the hostiles size, size of windows around him etc is the way it should be done - but I would say that is far easier for the standard player, than using a range finder, and then transferring that into a meaningful scope adjustment.

Stecher wrote: Ballistics

Don't get me started ;

Stecher wrote: The M24 and M40A3, with the right ammo, can shoot 0.25 MOA, on a good day. That's roughly a quarter inch deviation per 100 yards/meters. The L96 shoots 0.3 MOA, and the SVD is 2 MOA. As long as the cone of fire is realistically accurate, I don't see any problem with there being one. Bullet drop is a known statistic for every round. I suspect the problem with getting the correct curve is the physics engine of BF2? With a scope sighted in at 200m, a medium weight 7.62X51mm round travels in inches from 100-500m approximately like this: +2, 0, -9, -25, -50 Whatever it is in PRMM 0.3 seems okay, but I haven't done any attentive testing on this yet. I would welcome a little sway, if it were possible, in the kneeling or standing positions. But with the rifle solidly supported, as with the bipod when prone, it can be held perfectly still even by an average shooter.

The M24 does not have that MOA, it was limited in intial testing to 1MOA by the ammunition, with the same ammunition, the M40 managed 0.5MOA. The best I have seen either rifle do is to halve that, but only with VERY specialist ammunition.

And 1 MOA is equivalent to 1 inch per 100 yards

Your point about the ballistic behaviour of the 7.62 round makes no sense (I've been doing ballistic equations all night so I hardwired on this one) - you did not give an initial elevation, ball coefficient, humidity, actual mass (in grains) of the projectile etc - so I can't really go at that

I think sway has been safely dismissed as an engine limitation

As you guys have said, the ranges allowed by the engine are way below real life sniper ranges. The sniper kit is in the game because every fps must have one, but if it is not realistic then take it out. How many platoon sized forces have 5 snipers on each side? I would love to know how many snipers the US army would place in an area similar to our maps in real life. The real answer would be maybe 1.

The sniper kit does not realistically fit in to battlefield 2 situations

First, welcome to PR and your right, thats why about 4 posts up, I said, just bring in the DM, the designated rifleman.....but we don't know the DEVs aren't planning on that anyway - because the SVD is a DM rifle for example.

the.ultimate.maverick wrote: The standard Russian scope has not been the PSO-1 for a number of years now - they have switch to the POSP 8x fixed mag. scope. And the L96 is still a funny beast, some still use the 6x scope which was used in initial valuation, despite the fact, some have moved to the Schmidt & Bender scope.

Any idea how widespread the replacements are? Since the MEC are just theoritical, it is sort of an unanswerable question, but wouldn't they be more inclined to be in possession of the older, traveled models, not the newer Russian ones? Or was this switch quite some time ago? Also for the L96, I've read that some even use the 10x Leupold too.

I agree that in the large part scope adjustment for prone, standing, distance, elevation etc is easy to do in the training ground, especially with the Schmidt, but in BF2 you are simulating a relative close quarters style conflict with a high paced, high pressure scenario and people are shifting evelation, stance etc very often.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you have to rush your shots to the point where you can't properly operate your sniper system, then you're going about it in the wrong way entirely. Sniping shouldn't have anything to do with close quarters or a fast, dynamic situation. It should be long range and deliberate. If you are referring to the urban maps, then yes, the sniper typically cannot go through the motions and is terribly equiped for that style of fighting. I do my best to stay on open maps where I can engage at 300+. I fully support the addition of a DMR, not as a replacement, but maybe as a loudout option for the sniper class. The SPR (unsilenced) and SVD fill this very nicely. I think it should be optional, not forced one way or the other.

Yes, the ability to range estimate based upon the hostiles size, size of windows around him etc is the way it should be done - but I would say that is far easier for the standard player, than using a range finder, and then transferring that into a meaningful scope adjustment.

Well, I think that a "point and read" range finder is far easier than ranging with your reticle, but I wholeheartedly agree that an interactive adjustement system (elevation and windage) would be terrific to zero in the target instead of having to make hold-over shots.

The M24 does not have that MOA, it was limited in intial testing to 1MOA by the ammunition, with the same ammunition, the M40 managed 0.5MOA. The best I have seen either rifle do is to halve that, but only with VERY specialist ammunition.

Hehe, that's why I said "on a good day" with a wink. It has been shot to 0.25 MOA with top of the line ammo, but certainly a more realistic number for top end consistent performance would be 0.5 MOA. Do you happen to know if deployed snipers use their own match grade ammo, or do they just stick with the cost effective military issue M118 round? It it were me, I'd take the best stuff I could get my hands on.

You did not give an initial elevation, ball coefficient, humidity, actual mass (in grains) of the projectile etc - so I can't really go at that

Yeah, like I said, it was approximate. By "medium weight" I meant not the 150gr or 180gr. If memory serves, the M118 is 173gr and the commercial 165gr and 168gr are common, so I simply rounded the numbers for a general concept of the cartridge's performance, not for any specific bullet type.

Stecher wrote:Any idea how widespread the replacements are? Since the MEC are just theoritical, it is sort of an unanswerable question, but wouldn't they be more inclined to be in possession of the older, traveled models, not the newer Russian ones? Or was this switch quite some time ago? Also for the L96, I've read that some even use the 10x Leupold too.

Replacements are nigh on complete in Russia - if you can get hold of any footage from Chechneya (Spelling?!) then you will see the POSP in use. I argue for a more tech savy MEC.

Stecher wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you have to rush your shots to the point where you can't properly operate your sniper system, then you're going about it in the wrong way entirely. Sniping shouldn't have anything to do with close quarters or a fast, dynamic situation. It should be long range and deliberate. If you are referring to the urban maps, then yes, the sniper typically cannot go through the motions and is terribly equiped for that style of fighting. I do my best to stay on open maps where I can engage at 300+. I fully support the addition of a DMR, not as a replacement, but maybe as a loudout option for the sniper class. The SPR (unsilenced) and SVD fill this very nicely. I think it should be optional, not forced one way or the other.

In BF2 your range is < 300 metres (limited by draw distance) therefore in my mind, you are not using the rifle as a 'sniper' rifle per se, but more of a DM rifle. This is why I would argue there is not really a role for a 'sniper' class in BF2 but thats just my thoughts.

Stecher wrote: Well, I think that a "point and read" range finder is far easier than ranging with your reticle, but I wholeheartedly agree that an interactive adjustement system (elevation and windage) would be terrific to zero in the target instead of having to make hold-over shots.

Meh, I'm used to RL ranging off scopes on ranges from 8-4 every day so I prefer to range on view, and only use a range finder when I need first shot accuracy.

Stecher wrote: Hehe, that's why I said "on a good day" with a wink. It has been shot to 0.25 MOA with top of the line ammo, but certainly a more realistic number for top end consistent performance would be 0.5 MOA. Do you happen to know if deployed snipers use their own match grade ammo, or do they just stick with the cost effective military issue M118 round? It it were me, I'd take the best stuff I could get my hands on.

Depends on the unit. An RA unit would probably not be free to use their own ammunition, and more elite units will undoubtedly requisition the best ammuntion. As you accurately say the M118 is the limiting factor- but if you look at EU manufacturers, rather than US, you will notice that they tend to market their rifle with a better spec. of ammo and thus make their weapons appear 'more accurate'. Neat trick.

Stecher wrote: Yeah, like I said, it was approximate. By "medium weight" I meant not the 150gr or 180gr. If memory serves, the M118 is 173gr and the commercial 165gr and 168gr are common, so I simply rounded the numbers for a general concept of the cartridge's performance, not for any specific bullet type.

Okay, but a movement of the projectile upwards means an initial elevation >0 so it become slightly more complex. Ain't looked at the physics engine tbh

Lots of good information floating around here.

First of all It is not hard to predict bullet flight in game. Myself and Gran have mastered the US and MEC sniper rifles and constantly engage and execute targets at over 400M based on outline of bodies in the fog or like in CP Abadan you just live in sniper heaven.

Fixed VS Zoom Optics:
I have worked with some of if not THE best long gunners in the world. Every one I have worked with I have asked this same question. I get one resounding answer. FIXED zoom. In the field you just don't want to be dicking with your optics. My personall favorite is what the USMC used to use and that is the Redfield Accutrack 9X. I WILL hit you EVERY time at ranges up to 500m (sorry folks, I am not a great shot ).

Ammo:
The forces I have worked with use Hand packed ammo by the unit armory. I have seen however, a Trained Long Gunner make shots with out of the box ammo bought at Wal-Mart of ranges of 500M + with a 1" group. It impressed me... <---- Doesn't take much

I totally agree with changing the sniper-class to a Designated Marksman-class. Ranges in the game and gameplay gives limitations that excludes snipers as used in real life. Make the DM-class and give them more or less the same uniform and other equipment as other grunts.

ok, i am no sniper and i have not read much of waht has been sugested on this thread, so i will keep it short.
I would like to see the sniper equipted with a M14.
I would also like it, that after each shot, it took around 4 seconds to regain complete 100% accuracy. THis means, if a soldier come under fired, in 10 seconds, the sniper will only be able to get 2 accurate shots off, and 10 secs is easily enough time for a soldier to take cover or run. This prevents sniper completely wiping a whole squad out, due to the time it take for accurate shots. It also requires a sniper to amke the first shot count and in general i means the sniper rifle takes more skill. Also after waiting 4 secs, the accuracy does not increase, however, for all sniper rifles, it would mean a very very high degree of accuracy, no random luck or aducement (your character made all the neccessary adjucements in the 4 secs, it represent what snipes have to do in reality but keeps the game both fun and relaistic).

Also if a form of choise system is developted, it might be nice for the sniper to choose between a M14 or a bolt action rifle. The boltaction would come with a gilly suit, while the M14 would come with a normal interceptor body armour and normal marine clothing.
This would means, snipers could choose their tactics. With the normal gear adn M14 being better for city areas and the gilly suit, better for open fields and wooods.

I guess you've still not played PRMM 0.3 yet. That's what it's like.

The M14 is ancient, stick with the M24 and have the SPR as the DMR, but please take off the supressor.

M14 is making a MAJOR come back with designated marksman...