Project Reality Forums

=RvE=FuSiOn wrote:major if you have opperated the SAW, which i highly doubt but then humour me... You are saying its exaclty as it is in the game? no Recoil huh? and no muzzle flashes?
Makes u wonder...
Im thinking of changing my name to Colonel Klink so that i can make a claim of firing an Rpk-74 Lmg.
Funny thing is the Military personel in my squad seem to think otherwise about the support class from PR.
Peace

Doubt all you want, makes me no difference. Answer me this though, just exactly where did I say anything about it being exactly like how the game depicts it? I didn't. I was speaking to the claim of the accuracy. If you knew what the hell you were talking about, then you would have seen that the methods of firing dealt with issues of recoil anyway. Hence "Burst" being the most accurate. Why? Lots of reasons that anyone with practical experince would know, but since you seem to be lacking in that department, I'll eloborate.

Burst fire is more accurate because the recoil from 3-5 rounds is far less than a string of 20 - 30 or simply depressing the trigger until you hear "click". A busrt WILL string rounds, but not as bad as prolonged fire. Burst also cuts down on barrel heat build up, thus reducing barrel droop, which will completely ruin accuracy at any medium to long range shots. Prolonged barrel heat can ruin a barrel, rendering it "shot out".

I also talked about search and traverse. There was no mention of accuracy or recoil there as I stated this method was used to flush out bad guys from heavy cover, meaning you know what AREA they are in but you can't see them. You are trying to either score a lucky shot or force the bad guys to flee from the fire zone.

I also mention supressive fire. No accuracy needed, this is used to keep the bad guy's head down while your team advances along vectors. Once the team has gone beyond the support gunner's effective "cover fire" cone of lead, the team then provides supressive fire to allow the support gunner to advance up to another covered and concealed position. Rinse and Repeat.

If you want to be smarmy, go post on planetbattlefield. If you don't want to read my posts before making comments on them, then try not to step on your johnson when doing so.

oh yeah!!! another good reason for firing in squirts is the time to changing and cleaning the barrel. like with the GPMG when it was 400/800 rounds (peacetime/wartime) and they dropped it to 400/200 due to barrel cracking and exploding problems.

plus it's a pain in the butt for two people to carry the GPMG and ammo onto the battlefield only to blaze off all the ammo they are carrying in 60 seconds flat.

you set the gas parts on the GPMG to fire between 12 and 20 rounds per pull of the trigger. at highest speed it fires sounding like thunder.

The L85A1 came with two different fixed settings out of the factory. a slow firer and 50% faster. I always preferred the slow firing one, which I got issued as my first ever rifle (my second was prone to stoppages, every other damned round ) You don't go through ammo as fast in the worst of situations with the slower gas setting rifle. on auto a squeeze of the trigger gave you 2 rounds with live ammo and 3 rounds with blanks (the 3 round burst of the M16 ingame drives me mad! in combat i'd hate to have to use a rifle that gives 3 round bursts)

Get rid of support class!

Doesn't seem very realistic to me, considering that an automatic rifleman (who carries an M249 SAW) makes up 25% of a fireteam. There are going to be light machine guns on the battlefield; you can't just have assault rifles.

I agree. The support class should stay. Good soliders should know how to duck and cover and they also should work together to take out obstacles, which is what the support class is. I remember this one point in Call of Duty where there were two German heavy machine gunners making it impossible to progress and I simply flanked them.

=RvE=FuSiOn wrote:major if you have opperated the SAW, which i highly doubt but then humour me... You are saying its exaclty as it is in the game? no Recoil huh? and no muzzle flashes?
Makes u wonder...
Peace

Contrary to popular (hollywood-fed) belief, most LMGs and even assault rifles hardly ever produce muzzle flashes in real life.
Take a look around at videos on the internet of SAWs and similar weapons being fired if you believe otherwise.
Also, have you even fired the in-game machine guns, considering you believe they have "no recoil" in-game ?
What the hell ?

EDIT:
Also, grammer and proper punctuation are your friend.

The SAW is an important part of a squad and no - it should not be taken out. I do however agree that it is overly powerful as for now. I don't have much problem w/it's accuracy or deviation in any stance, BUT I feel that it should have slightly more deviation when standing or crouching after the 4th or 5th shot. The reason why it's so exploited right now is because of the insta-prone 'sploit that LMG whores are using. It's very unrealistic to mow down a squad of 3 in mid-air and have the last man drop dead as you hit the ground.

Unfortunately due to BF2's limitations, the insta-proning issue is much harder to fix and tweak than it sounds so hopefully the devs find a hack for it to balance it out. And, for the argument that a SAW gunner can kill a sniper from 300m sounds correct. 300m is quite a distance, but not a problem for LMG and a good gunner can easily take anyone out in a distance like that. Sniper have 1 shot 1 kill weapons and are very accurate. If you get killed by a machine gunner it's because you didn't sneak well enough to put yourself in a good vantage point; making you only a marksman and not a sniper.

'[R-DEV wrote:Wraith']The weopons are realistic as is. There is no need to tweak them.

Sorry, I know you guys are doing the absloute best you can. And for the most part, this mod is much better than the regular version.

But I disagree big time with that statement. Read my next post as I haven't figured out how to do two qotes in the same post. ops:

I think Support is fine. They kill me everynow and then but so does everyone else! Whne u peek out from a corner and see a hail of bullets run the other way and flank him! Or chuck a smoke....and no I don'y play support, ever. Medic is the way!

Well not everyone kills me, Evil_Homer doesn't with his sniper!

Eden wrote:Just to point out, its unlikely a sniper will ever win against support because the sniper rifles are so inaccurate. you have to lie down, aim, wait 3 seconds, fire then hope the game didn't decide to send your bullet 3m to the left. By that time the support gunner (standing) has fired off 10-20 rounds at you and killed you before you have even lined up your scope.

explain that

The support class just as the sniper class should take skill to use, but not in the form of random deviation.

EXACTLY! Well said. That's the reason for my main post in "all about snipers." I completly agree with you. I am growing more and more frustrated with the accuracy of the sniper rifles. A few times last night I was less than 100 meters from a target. The enemy had no idea wher I was, I was prone, he was standing perfectly still. I fired one shot at his head. Miss! Second shot (he didn't hear the report from the suppressed rifle). Miss! Now he moved to a different position. Shot 3. Miss!!!!!! AARGH!!! Now he had the idea someone was sniping when he only had his head poking out from cover, and still heard bullets flying by his head. How can 3 shots miss with a sniper rifle at 100 meters?!?!?!????? That is totally unrealistic. These rifles should be accurate to over 1000 YARDS as in real life.

On the other hand. I was playing in a small sever with fellow Trust Co members a few days ago. Going against a support gunner in the jungle map. He found out where I was. We were some 150 meters apart. I shot a few, hit him ONCE A non lethal shot. He started firing. Two bullets fly by my head, then I die.

That is in now way right. Yes, snipers should have some bullet drop and deviation, but not like that. Yes, the sniper kit should be hard to use. Other wise everyone would be running around killing every time. However, since I've downloaded this mod, I have had a hit percentage under 60%, and a one shot kill percentage under 40%. Everyone would agree with me that that is not right. On the other hand, support seem to have a much higher percentage of hitting and one shot kills.


Yes, I know I'm sounding like a cry baby right now. But come on. Everyone knows sniper rifles are the most accurate out of the bunch. Why else are they so important?? If they wern't accurate, I doubt they would be such widely used today.


Sorry for the long post. I'm just really upset at the sniper class vs. other classes.

When we trained to go against LMG positions we didn't ask the sniper to come up and take him out!!!!

We would give distraction fire, then send people round on the flank to creep up and post a grenade on the position. Nothing worse than falling behind the timetable for the battleplan. sitting back and waiting 7-9 hours for the enemy to show themselves again is not what the british army is about (as my little Bro found out when he was in Iraq for his first time attached to the yanks)

How can 3 shots miss with a sniper rifle at 100 meters?!?!?!????? That is totally unrealistic. These rifles should be accurate to over 1000 YARDS as in real life.

I've seen an entire platoon attack on the ranges where everyone looked down the Susat of their L85's and let rip on targets 100m away that popped up and all their rounds fell short of the target!!!! the scope covers 300-600m so anything below that you have to deliberately aim above the enemy or use the single metal sight on top of the Susat!

with a sniper rifle with a fixed high powered sight theres no way the target would appear in the sight at 100m when considering the altered aiming point so the weapon would be inneffective!!!!

MrD wrote:When we trained to go against LMG positions we didn't ask the sniper to come up and take him out!!!!

Yes, I know that, but sometimes you can't help it but go head to head. Especially on the rare chance that someone with an automatic weapon spots you.

MrD wrote: I've seen an entire platoon attack on the ranges where everyone looked down the Susat of their L85's and let rip on targets 100m away that popped up and all their rounds fell short of the target!!!!

Do you have any idea what you said?? That's a bit of a stretch. I have a hard time believing that one.

MrD wrote: with a sniper rifle with a fixed high powered sight theres no way the target would appear in the sight at 100m when considering the altered aiming point so the weapon would be inneffective!!!!

That is exactly why there needs to be a zoomable scope. As well as adjustments for bullet drop. Maybe even have that automatically diled in. And YES some snipers in the special forces have scopes that electronically automatically adjust for bullet drop using an intergrated range finder. Not a lie, I found an article - maybe I can try to find it again.

'[T*Co wrote:StudMuffin21']That is exactly why there needs to be a zoomable scope. As well as adjustments for bullet drop. Maybe even have that automatically diled in. And YES some snipers in the special forces have scopes that electronically automatically adjust for bullet drop using an intergrated range finder. Not a lie, I found an article - maybe I can try to find it again.

Does the m24 have this "integrated range finder"? If it doesn't, this really doesn't apply, does it?


I'll look into this sniper problem a little bit and see what i find.

'[R-DEV wrote:Katarn']Does the m24 have this "integrated range finder"? If it doesn't, this really doesn't apply, does it?

Not in the PR mod. The Special Forces kit has binoculars with an adjustable zoom. Those binocs do have a range finder. The sniper kit has a fixed zoom scope and a fixed zoom binocular with no range finder
In real life, typically snipers work as a pair. One (the spotter) has the binoculars or or minocular with a range finder. The other (the shooter) uses imputs from the spotter to adjust for wind, elevation, bullet drop, etc...as needed. If he is working alone, he will use the mill dot (or similiar) recticle in the scope to determine range, then adjust from there.

'[R-DEV wrote:Katran']I'll look into this sniper problem a little bit and see what i find.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Apologies for bumping up this thread but the support class is really ruining my enjoyment of this excellent mod. Particularly on maps such as Karkand2.

I don't want to get into the argument of whether the current support gun is realistic as I have never fired one in real life, so don't have even the tiniest of clues.

I'm talking about it's place in the mod. When you have a map running where most people are playing as one kit, what does that tell you about that kit?

It's obvious that the devs aren't going to remove it completely, but I would like to see the insta prone fix (which you are working on, I think has been mentioned elsewhere) and also so that you can only use it when on the ground or if you are standing up it has rubbish accuracy. Maybe someone who has actually fired a gun like this can confirm or deny, but are you able to use a gun like the support class standing up?? Unless you're arnie of course. I would guess it would have to be on the ground.

This is such an excellent mod in every single way, but the support class just ruins it slightly.

Here's my reply to the subject on another thread:

No matter how you shoot a weapon, be it with your fingers, your toes, whatever, the bullet's going to come out of the weapon in the exact same way. The barrel length, bullet size, muzzle velocity are all exactly the same, therefore the accuracy can not change.

What DOES change is the recoil. If you're standing up with no other support on the weapon the gun is going to kick back on your shoulder more and you're going to have to stop the swaying to line up for a second shot. Sustained fire will make it very hard to get your shots on target. The SAW is not a HMG, it's not necessarily designed to be used only from the prone position as these chaps demonstrate:





Firing from standing SHOULD be accurate. Sustained fire SHOULD be difficult to control. With a mouse and keyboard it's very simple to fight this recoil unfortunately by cancelling out the movements of recoil. Machine guns are meant to be a menace to troops and that's just the way it is in PRMM.

The accuracy should not change, it is perfectly realistic now. The SAW is a manageable weapon from standing, it's basically just a large assault rifle. The RPK-74 and Type 95 SAW are assault rifles with extended mags. If PR lets you stand with an assault rifle, there's no reason why the guys specialising with the SAWs should suddenly not be able to fire standing. After all, they're carrying as much if not less weight than the assault class.

There are indeed a lot of support on any given server post .3, and that is after the MG's being nerfed somewhat. IMO [as has been said before] the weapon is fine, its just instaprone that is the real issue here.

I am a good machinegunner. That means I set up where I think you + your squad will be and I take you all down. I don't rambo my MG, I use it as SUPPORT. If it is nerfed further then it loses its effectiveness. Yes, it IS a killer, BUT THATS WHAT IT'S DESIGNED FOR! Already PR has removed the ammo packs from the MG'ers, meaning the MG has to interface much more closely with the squad than before. IMO if it is nerfed further it will be a nerf too far. Fix instaprone = absolute accuracy instantly and its good.

0.3 never changed the MG stats, it just took away the ammo bags. The stats are perfectly fine, prone is the only problem. It's a myth that you get perfect accuracy immediately, that was fixed in BF2 patch 1.2. It's just the fact that in PRMM the accuracy of all weapons is greater than that of BF2 and so the nerfed prone accuracy is still enough to kill people from close ranges.

I hope my prone fix becomes a reality.

Unrealistic... hold the phone, you said unrealistic? In accuracy tests by the US military, they discovered that the M249 SAW is comparably as accurate as an M16A2 assault rifle. I know someone in the military who was issued one, he said that, from 100 meters, all he has to do is aim it at someone, press the trigger, and wave it back-and-forth for two seconds. He also said that it was impossible for someone to sprint across a street while being fired at by one; it would cut you to ribbons.

Just fifteen minutes ago, I was in the same situation: a guy tried to cut across a street on Karkand 2 and I started firing; I plastered him with the damned thing.

It's realistic, so if you can't handle realism, it's time to play a mod that doesn't have "Reality" in it's name. I do agree, however, that proning should be slowed down.

the bit ppl cant stand about the support class is the instant prone, not ppl shooting up ppl running across the street

The original poster was whining about how accurate it was from standing. I'm rectifying the statement that it is made to be fired from any position.

And I wouldn't consider taking ammo bags away from support a "nerf". It was specifically done for the reason stated: to give the support class some teamplay value. Granted, I can invade the Essex on Vanilla and hole up on one of the side carriages forever... alone, even. But on PR, support is required to work as a team player, otherwise he will run out of ammunition mighty fast.