Project Reality Forums

Adetter wrote:i can re-flip hueys and LBs.................

Hueys I'd love to see, but LBs aren't that hard to flip back over, especially on carriers where they get repaired.

Flippin' happens all the time, most people just jump out of the helo and leave it. But it's possible to get it standing again, people just need to practise

Adetter wrote:i can re-flip hueys and LBs.................

Yes I know you press S but you're supposed to Crash & die.

Herbiie wrote:Just tapping the W key in my Suggestion isn't enough to kill you...

If you read it it says that instead of flipping you get killed - so you'll have to hold down the W key for a certain amount of time, not just tap it.

Also waiting for a Helicopter to be destroyed and maybe more (Helis destroyed or squads killed) before something is done is just stupid - why not do something about it before hand?


@ Hunt3r so you think it's fine that one team loses because of a noob?

A Heli flipping and taking me out (When I'm either in the Heli next to it or in the back) has happened to me about 5 times in the past few weeks, almost straight away the Pilot has left (Not kicked, Auto Kicked, Or Banned).... No one is happy and it helps no one.

Also the easiest way to tell is on some Helis the stamina bar goes up, when it disappears you can go.

The key word here is realism. In reality, if helicopter flip because you apply maximum collective on start up, then it should be so here.

Hunt3r wrote:The key word here is realism. In reality, if helicopter flip because you apply maximum collective on start up, then it should be so here.

In real life a Pilot who cannot fly would not be allowed to.

If a pilot in PR cannot take off, there is no way he can fly, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to.

Herbiie wrote:Imho the point is if you don't know to wait for it to warm up - how are you going to be able to fly the thing effectively?

The point of the flipping is to stop people from crashing, and to stop useless pilots from being able to fly.

Well once you get in the air its fairly intuitive and I would assume that most plays would have attempted to fly a chopper at some point either in vanilla or PR.

Its the start-up that throws them off (lolz).

Herbiie wrote:In real life a Pilot who cannot fly would not be allowed to.

If a pilot in PR cannot take off, there is no way he can fly, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to.

As Tim said, usually everyone has flown a helicopter in BF2 at some point in time and should be able to do so decently.

I really don't mind the current system, but it could be better.

This is a teamwork/reality mod, so my opinion is that we should make this realistic and use teamwork to solve this problem. Using the movie Full Metal Jacket scene where Gunnery Sergeant Hartman finds a jelly donut in Pvt. Pyle foot locker as inspiration on this, we should not punish or kill noobs who flip helicopters, but we should punish the team for the noobs mistake. So next time you see a noob flip a helicopter or run a jet into a wall you should hit CAPS lock or enter and then click suicide and then motivate the noob into becoming a better part of the team by reading the manual.



If you think that i am serious about what i just said your an idiot, but a noobs mistake on not reading the manual can kill a squad. If a noob sees a enemy approach from the rear of the squad and jumps on a HMG to kill the enemy and get the squad killed because the noob doesn't know that it takes a second or two to ready a HMG (not sure on the specific amount of time it takes to ready a HMG), should they be punished for that too? well thats my thoughts let me know what you think. =D

Im going to try and wrap this debate up with a quick summary.

Problem.
- Players who have evidently not read the manual/new to the mod/first time flying do not understand that some choppers have new physics when taking off. They do not understand that if you hold down on your throttle, you will flip. If its the first time flying, the logical thing to do is to hold in your throttle to move... however it will kill you as it is now.

-This punishes the team due to the actions of a player that might not understand what they are doing.

Possible Solutions.

1.) Give the players a visual prompt when they enter the Helo, telling them that gunning their throttle will result in a flipped helo and to wait x amount of time for the engine to warm up

2.) Lock the chopper, like the apc/tank gun so the chopper cannot be moved until it is ready

3.) Re-code helo physics so the chopper does not roll.

4.) Kill the player inside if they flip and do not allow them to request a pilot kit for x amount of time.

Realized it's a bit long for some people to bother reading, so, TL;DR: I think the punishment thing is a tad harsh, and believe that visual cues are a good option, as are decreased spawns for vehicles crashed momentarily after the pilot's entry to the vehicle.

The problem here is that you want people to die when applying throttle before takeoff. I, and a few others that have already mentioned it, can apply throttle without flipping so as to take off the moment the chopper is ready. (but more often than not, I don't, as there's a gap between when the chopper is able to become airborne and when it hits maximum effectiveness, anyone who's ever flown a huey can attest to this) Should we be punished?
How do you suggest that the DEV's separate throttle application at startup to throttle application midflight? From what i've seen from DEV comments and other discussions concerning the limits of the BF2 engine, and mixing in some knowledge I have from being in mod communities in days gone by, I think it might unworkable with this engine. I might be wrong. It's a nice idea, but it still doesn't treat the noob as is necessary. It just penalizes him instantly for the prevention of the grief of the existing players, which sort of alienates new players.

But the issue lies less with coding, it's more one of intelligence. If a pilot doesn't know how to fly, he should learn how, not get shouted down by his team, Instakilled, raped of all his points and given a lengthy spawn delay as has been suggested, or outright kicked from a server, just because he crashed once. Perhaps he isn't a noob. Perhaps he just has experience as infantry, but had flown perfectly in 'nilla and wanted to try here? What if it's a one-off, perhaps he just made a mistake. Should all these people be punished? Situationally, your suggestion seems a tad "trying to push a cork into water with a sledgehammer**", if someone gets instakilled in a chopper on takeoff, they're more than likely to bob right back up and try again. Which, admittedly, will force a sharp learning curve unless they're overwhelmingly intimidated by the team's response to their crash and head over to a training server, or just leave the choppers alone completely.

I do quite like the idea of a clear visual warning, the same as YOU MUST JOIN A SQUAD if unsquadded in a heli or heavy vehicle, and I assume that WOULD be possible with the engine. Perhaps "WAIT FOR X SECONDS BEFORE ATTEMPTING TAKE OFF, READ THE MANUAL FOR MORE INFORMATION." It'd also provide a clear value of the seconds before takeoff to more experienced pilots like myself, I don't know about anyone else but in some of the less frequently encountered birds (The chinese attack chopper or the Merlin, for instance) I find myself "dancing" on the throttle, holding it for short spells of time towards the end of spooling up 'cause I don't quite know when the chopper is ready. (Despite the audio cue, for instance, the huey sounds fully operational for a moment before becoming airborne-viable, a moment that's more than long enough for the chopper to flip.)

I know it's not exactly realism, but my 2 cents on the subject is that if a chopper is crashed perhaps any time up to a minute after the pilot enters the vehicle, it should have a faster respawn time. Say a cobra for example, if it goes down it has 20 minutes to respawn. Perhaps if it's crashed during takeoff, it gets 10. This keeps the realism somewhat, but lessens the blow to the tactical effectiveness to the team caused by one mistake, no? The pilot should be politely discouraged from flying again until he has more practice and informed of the flipping aspects of choppers, certainly, but not viciously penalized for what could be an honest mistake. Accidents happen, and while this seems a bit far fetched a scenario, I've seen it occur to senior players who've experienced brainfarts, not just new players.

Without a doubt I accept that trolls DO exist in PR, as in any game, and we all do our best to weed them out, but one will always slip through the net for any number of reasons. For Example, on the =]H[= server we often get people stealing assets from named squads, which we take quite seriously, and after they've been warned and told to disband their squads, reasonably often they will just crash or destroy some assets out of pure spite and then quit. These are the sort of players that use the flippy flippy mechanic to their gain. The spawn time decrease would lessen the blow their spite has in this situation, as well. Again, I awknowledge that trolls exist, but they need to be seperated from innocent, new pilots, lest we begin alienating players from the community, which could always benefit from new blood.

-*]H[* JakCurse.


EDIT: In re-reading, I see that it comes across as though I don't care if people go to training servers or not. That's not the case, I think time on training servers is vital, but I also believe that one can learn much faster and in a way more suited to combat flying on a live server. Getting the groundings for flight in a training server is necessary (Although I started flying after lengthy infantry experience on live servers, and after continued success as a pilot have only visited a training server once or twice to get practice in with the holy grails- Jets, or to sharpen my maneuvering skills seperate from the ward of enemy AA.) Although I also believe strongly that some things can only be learnt under fire.




**Paraphrased from a critic of American tactics in Vietnam, for those interested.

Well isn't it fine to just remove the flipping anyhow?

In reality increasing the collective should just mean you need to counter-act these forces with some anti-torque on the pedals.

Herbiie wrote:Ffs....

You flip if you hold the throttle down while the rotors are spooling up? That kills you! And everyone around you! THIS JUST KILLS YOU. IT doesn't mean that if you touch the throttle at any point you die - where does it say that? Where the hell is everyone getting this idea from?

This isn't more Harsh or ANYTHING else than the current system - the only difference is that Instead of ruining a game for a whole team one person dies with a long spawn time. How the hell is that harsh? You want to fly? PRACTISE, TRAIN, READ THE MANUAL. Only pilots who haven't done this flip, normal pilots will not be affected by this... Please try to actually read.

FOR FLUFF'S SAKE TO YOU TOO MORON!

I am very capable of reading, but unlike you I'm actually capable of interpreting the information that I'm passing my eyes over.

When I keep the throttle at +5-10% this is a constant positive input! According to you yourself this will event in me being killed. Perhaps you should use that brain of yours and actually think about the negative implications of this rather then focussing on what you feel are the positives?

Kim Jong ill wrote:FOR FLUFF'S SAKE TO YOU TOO MORON!

I am very capable of reading, but unlike you I'm actually capable of interpreting the information that I'm passing my eyes over.

When I keep the throttle at +5-10% this is a constant positive input! According to you yourself this will event in me being killed. Perhaps you should use that brain of yours and actually think about the negative implications of this rather then focussing on what you feel are the positives?

What kim's said is true, Herb, as I said, some of us regularly apply throttle (IE HOLDING THE KEY DOWN, In case making that link was too strenuous) which would, under your suggestion, denote us noobs and worthy of instakills.

Herbiie wrote:"You flip if you hold the throttle down while the rotors are spooling up? That kills you! And everyone around you! THIS JUST KILLS YOU.IT doesn't mean that if you touch the throttle at any point you die - where does it say that? Where the hell is everyone getting this idea from?"

The argument Kim is fighting against, and that you're presumably defending, is that anyone who touches the throttle during takeoff will die. Simple.

Especially in the case of Hueys, youl find the pilots always hitting the throttle testing to find when its ready for takeoff. By your logic, just trying to see if the choppers are ready and they arnt it kills you.

Its not even hard to stop a chopper from flipping, if it starts to flip all you have to do is reverse throttle and and goes back to normal.

To make things crystal clear I am using an actual physical throttle as part of my HOTAS, this means that the positive input is 100% constant whilst applied.

Herbiie wrote:Imho the point is if you don't know to wait for it to warm up - how are you going to be able to fly the thing effectively?

The flight physics are reasonably familiar to anyone who's flown in a Battlefield game, it's mainly the roll on warm up for some choppers that's unique to PR.

Herbiie wrote:The point of the flipping is to stop people from crashing, and to stop useless pilots from being able to fly.

I strongly doubt that, I don't believe it is deliberate.

It makes no sense to kill the pilot, the asset and it's passengers on warm up. Just to prevent a possible crash later on, which could occur after the helicopter has served it's purpose.

Only 6 out of PR's 13 helicopters actually roll/flip when throttle is applied too early. The aircraft code in PR has just been generally neglected.

Tim270 wrote:3.) Re-code helo physics so the chopper does not roll.

Bingo.

After receiving some much needed TLC the Hueys and Littlebirds in Combined Arms do not roll on warm up.

Overall they're a lot nicer to fly as well, I really hope the code is integrated into PR.

I'm with you on this one Herb, if I had it my way, noobs that wrecked helo's for us law abiding players should have their IP's traced, there homes raised to the ground, and be burned at the stake along with their closest family!

*razed.

Well hopefully PR's helicopter physics will eventually get a huge makeover because it's kinda useless complaining about "bad" pilots when the damned things fly at the speed of sound on small dives or can fly upside down or rely on actrual negative thrust rather than gravity to fall to the earth.

Meh, I'm sure the devs are busy with a ton of things right now.

It would be nice for them to improve the helicopters some time between .9 and 1.0. Or, if 1.0 isn't the end for PR on Refractor 2, some time soon after 1.0.