Project Reality Forums

Grenade traps should be removed completely. what is realistic about them?

they kill tons of friendlies and do nothing but hinder the team whose idiots placed them all over the cache area. oh great you killed 2 or 3 blufor, but in the meantime have tkd 7 friendlies.

oh right, look at my map or look at the ground, yeah yeah, you do realize there is a battle going on and some of use dont want to spend the whole fight looking atmaps and navigating around GT's,

worst ones, im wounded cant see, desperately trying to make it back to the cache and boom, hit a gt. happens all the time .

im still wondering what gt placers are thinking, oh my trap saved the cache/spawnpoint, yeah right, id rather have 1 alive teamate then 50 traps "guarding" me.

Please PR take these unrealistic crappy weapons out of the game. If its not command detonated it shouldnt be in the game.

My philosophy on gren traps is simple, I expect every cache building to have them, as such, by my reckoning I have set off less than 10 of these things since their introduction in PR. Unless you spawn with one tangled round your feet you have nobody to blame but yourself (I'm counting those incidents in the 10 btw). Practically every critique of gren traps so far on this thread and as seen in game is a result of either players going too fast and failing to take stock of their environment, treating insurgencey in a spammy rush the enemy from the cache mentality or from poor squad/team play. The insurgents are an unconventional force and should be played like that, not 28 day later style zombies with AK's.

Since the introduction of ammo bags/supply technicals for the insurgents the cache is no longer the only source of ammo for the team. Civilians, Taliban medics and to a lesser extent squad leaders should be the ones you are going to for patches, not the cache, whats wrong with a bit teamwork people?

If you want to attack BLUFOR spawn on a hideout, or main, or get your SL to put you a rally down, walking long distances or using trans is good enough for you on AAS mode, why not insurgencey? And if you realy must spawn from a cache, take stock of your surroundings, listen, can you hear BLUFOR nearby? If your on Mumble, ask someone who has been alive more than 5 seconds what is going on. Once you think it's safe, leave the building slowly, calmly and without drawing too much attention too it. But the 9 times out 10 the only reason you should be spawning on a cache is because it is your intention to stay and protect it. In which case you should have pleanty enough time to have a slow walk around the building and recce for booby traps.

I was playing a round a few weeks back, the entire team was concentrated around a single cache, bar a single sapper at the unrevealed cache. Within minutes of that cache going blue he was shouting for re-enforcements, none came, for about 5 minutes this sapper held off all comers. When the re-enforcements finaly started spawning on the nearby hideout the first thing they did was run for the cache through the back door, the second thing they did was grabbed RPG's, PKM's etc, the third thing they did was run out the front door like lemmings right into the gren traps and proceed to ***** and moan about this particular sapper. If he had not been gren trapping this cache building it would not even have been there.

Commando_Jenkins wrote:1. Changing the color or creating a entirely new marker for nade traps will just fill the map up with more icons.
2. How often do players check the map on foot to look for mine markers?

1. Changing the color or marker would actually help with the clutter. Right now we have landmine markers all over and putting the same marker for traps just adds to that clutter.

2. Since the only markings for the cache is on your map, it's fair to say a lot of the players regularly check their maps when playing as opfor in insurgency mode.

Also, the sniper has grenade traps now (thanks devs) not just the sappers. Tho, i can't remember if it's all opfor snipers, or just insurgents. But at least one opfor faction sniper has them.

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Boris, I completely agree with everything you said. It's nice to see I'm not the only one preaching these ideas. If you ever see me in-game, throw me a squad invite, I love playing with intelligent players like you.

BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:Grenade traps should be removed completely. what is realistic about them?

they kill tons of friendlies and do nothing but hinder the team whose idiots placed them all over the cache area. oh great you killed 2 or 3 blufor, but in the meantime have tkd 7 friendlies.

oh right, look at my map or look at the ground, yeah yeah, you do realize there is a battle going on and some of use dont want to spend the whole fight looking atmaps and navigating around GT's,

worst ones, im wounded cant see, desperately trying to make it back to the cache and boom, hit a gt. happens all the time .

im still wondering what gt placers are thinking, oh my trap saved the cache/spawnpoint, yeah right, id rather have 1 alive teamate then 50 traps "guarding" me.

Please PR take these unrealistic crappy weapons out of the game. If its not command detonated it shouldnt be in the game.

Unrealistic?? The Taliban Im sure has used Grenade Traps and other sorts of explosive traps to effectiveness without setting them off themselves. Same goes for the NVA in Vietnam, they had all kinds of traps set out for our troops and got quite a lot of them while at worst having minimum friendly casualties from them. How you may ask? Information, telling people that there is a trap there. If they run into it, its their own fault.

Getting punished for TKs caused by some idiot who ran into my grenade traps after I marked, them and designated them in team chat is like someone getting a cup of coffee with the words "CAUTION HOT" printed on it, accidentily burning their tounge and dropping the thing, dumping it all over themselves and then sueing and winning millions of dollars. Downright stupid.

As far as putting them at choke points, it takes you all of what 2 seconds to crawl under a trap or past a mine. The idea of it being at the choke point is that, they have to go through it. And with luck, they'll be running to rush through, not see the trap, and blow themselves up, OR at worst, they see it, and their whole squad tries to drop down to go under the trap while you and five other insurgents who have eyes on them just blast them apart.

And lets be honest, it takes you a whole second to look up to the top right of your screen and see if anywhere in your immediate area, is a red skull and crossbones. Thats part of situational awareness, knowing your surroundings, ie. glancing at the map.

Heck most servers you have to do it anyways (Besides TG) when you have to look up at team chat all the time to communicate with other squads.

Now hitting it while wounded and black and white is understandable, but I still dont think a tk punishable offense.

USNCaseySmith wrote:Unrealistic?? The Taliban Im sure has used Grenade Traps and other sorts of explosive traps to effectiveness without setting them off themselves. Same goes for the NVA in Vietnam, they had all kinds of traps set out for our troops and got quite a lot of them while at worst having minimum friendly casualties from them. How you may ask? Information, telling people that there is a trap there. If they run into it, its their own fault.

Getting punished for TKs caused by some idiot who ran into my grenade traps after I marked, them and designated them in team chat is like someone getting a cup of coffee with the words "CAUTION HOT" printed on it, accidentily burning their tounge and dropping the thing, dumping it all over themselves and then sueing and winning millions of dollars. Downright stupid.

As far as putting them at choke points, it takes you all of what 2 seconds to crawl under a trap or past a mine. The idea of it being at the choke point is that, they have to go through it. And with luck, they'll be running to rush through, not see the trap, and blow themselves up, OR at worst, they see it, and their whole squad tries to drop down to go under the trap while you and five other insurgents who have eyes on them just blast them apart.

And lets be honest, it takes you a whole second to look up to the top right of your screen and see if anywhere in your immediate area, is a red skull and crossbones. Thats part of situational awareness, knowing your surroundings, ie. glancing at the map.

Heck most servers you have to do it anyways (Besides TG) when you have to look up at team chat all the time to communicate with other squads.

Now hitting it while wounded and black and white is understandable, but I still dont think a tk punishable offense.

I cant find any articles that discuss grenade traps used by taliban. Link if you find one.\

Seems like a very unrealistic weapon in a game based on realism.

You can see lots of articles on mortar and arty ied's but grenade traps if they are used, dont seem to be common. Certainly not for it to be part of a kit, maybe make it unique kits like the arty ied. That would reduce the number of them greatly.

This isnt vietnam so i dont see how that applies.

LOL you say it only takes 2 seconds to go thru it and then claim that it somehow also slows the enemy down immensely. If its so easy for me, then its so easy for them too.

I know all about SA, there is a lot more going on in game then me spending half my round making sure i dont set off your stupid cheap *** grenade traps.

They do more harm than good. you can yell til you are blue in face watch out for traps but that doesnt change the simple fact that they kill more friendlies than enemies. So keep putting them down, but realize you arent actually helping your team like you think you are...

People please for the sake of god, don't use them! As a cache defender you must be able to move faster, but since people start throwing those traps everywhere, your cache gets destroyed because you have to crawl over 50 GT's and don't get there in time. So please, don't place them near objectives! Place them near enemy fobs, or main bases but not at a high trafficed area that is used by lots of friendlies.

Sappers are supposed to cut the arteries that lead to the cache unless they're pretty much alone or with their own squad on that same cache. Otherwise, a sapper just can't simply spawn on the cache and immediately proceed to plant a few grenade traps in all entrances except one (where he most likely placed a pipebomb). The timing is everything, the closer the enemy is, more reasons you have to plant those things.

Unfortunately most sappers can't read the situation properly or use it more often in the offensive line. Even the mines are sometimes placed in predictable places for the enemies. They have to act fast and two steps ahead of the enemy.

One thing's for sure, as it is now, I recommend to change something about it. Perhaps implementing a different color for the grenade traps on the mini map would be nice. It will still do more harm than good overall, but it will cause lesser accidents.

BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:I cant find any articles that discuss grenade traps used by taliban. Link if you find one.\

Seems like a very unrealistic weapon in a game based on realism.

You can see lots of articles on mortar and arty ied's but grenade traps if they are used, dont seem to be common. Certainly not for it to be part of a kit, maybe make it unique kits like the arty ied. That would reduce the number of them greatly.

This isnt vietnam so i dont see how that applies.

LOL you say it only takes 2 seconds to go thru it and then claim that it somehow also slows the enemy down immensely. If its so easy for me, then its so easy for them too.

I know all about SA, there is a lot more going on in game then me spending half my round making sure i dont set off your stupid cheap *** grenade traps.

They do more harm than good. you can yell til you are blue in face watch out for traps but that doesnt change the simple fact that they kill more friendlies than enemies. So keep putting them down, but realize you arent actually helping your team like you think you are...

I cant, but that doesn't mean they weren't used I'm sure, they improvise, and a grenade trap sure seems to be like an improvised weapon to me.

I only used vietnam because the vietcong were, in essence, fighting like insurgents, with guerilla type tactics.

And yes, it takes you 2 seconds to move under or around maybe longer, now a whole squad who is trying to get through the one choke point (This is under the instance of one grenade trap) and if theyre stupid all 6 of them will hit their bellies and try to crawl, for anyone watching that choke point from relative safety, thats 6 easy kills. If they dont crawl and miss the traps and run right into them, thats 6 easy kills for you.

I was only talking about using the map because I know, at least I do, that one of the main things for SA is to glance at the map quite periodically, even in somewhat of a fire fight (Too look for alley ways I can flank the people my squad is firefighting against, hazards, and other things, mind you Im in cover before I glance, but the point is you glance up there anyway so you should be seeing these nice easy read signs right there for your convenience.

Sure they do tons of harm if you have people that lay them right when the game starts off or lay them right next to the cache, but when they are smart about it and wait and place them in better places, then they do the opposite of your post. Refer to the last paragraph of Boris. T. Spiders post.

ghost-recon wrote:As a cache defender you must be able to move faster, but since people start throwing those traps everywhere, your cache gets destroyed because you have to crawl over 50 GT's and don't get there in time.

Yet somehow at least two BLUFOR soldiers managed to navigate these 50 grenade traps uncontested? I'm not buying this scenario. Defenders don't need speed, they are where they need to be already.

BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:LOL you say it only takes 2 seconds to go thru it and then claim that it somehow also slows the enemy down immensely. If its so easy for me, then its so easy for them too.

This technique has been part of military doctrine for thousands of years, from the medieval spiral staircase and sharpened stakes too the modern day explosive booby traps, they are designed to slow attackers down. Why because attackers rely on speed, if their attack is blunted it fails, history shows this. If you ever get a chance to visit a European castle check this out for yourself, get a stick or toy sword from the gift shop in your right hand and try to run up a spiral stair case and imagine you have to hack at the defenders holding position on the stairs. Then imagine there are 50 guys behind you snarled up right out into the courtyard getting peppered with arrows because all you can do is brace your shield and push against near impossible odds.

The situation with grenade traps is exactly the same, the enemy are trying to breach a fortification through a bottleneck, the gren trap prevents you bringing equal force of arms, you need to go through this one at a time, and while you are doing it you are defenseless, to use the spiral staircase analogy, you cannot swing your sword. The defender inside the building still has full range of movement, you throw a grenade in, he can retreat further inside, he throws a grenade at you while you are in this bottleneck and you are dead, no questions asked. If fortune favors you and you make it inside, you need to hold against all of the defenders solo, until your next re-enforcement can make it through the bottleneck, you need to defend his prone ***, and so on and so forth for all the attackers trying to breach. Meanwhile, the defenders are shooting your re-enforcements from the windows and other enemies outside the building are regrouping to attack your squad in the rear.

In the chaos of this moment, those two seconds are critical to your survival, for the defenders, they have all the time in the world. They should never have to traverse grenade traps under fire, as if the enemy are in a position to fire on the gren traps your window for a sally has allready closed and you should be deffending the cache to the last man.

Boris.T.Spider wrote: This technique has been part of military doctrine for thousands of years, from the medieval spiral staircase and sharpened stakes too the modern day explosive booby traps, they are designed to slow attackers down. Why because attackers rely on speed, if their attack is blunted it fails, history shows this. If you ever get a chance to visit a European castle check this out for yourself, get a stick or toy sword from the gift shop in your right hand and try to run up a spiral stair case and imagine you have to hack at the defenders holding position on the stairs. Then imagine there are 50 guys behind you snarled up right out into the courtyard getting peppered with arrows because all you can do is brace your shield and push against near impossible odds.

The situation with grenade traps is exactly the same, the enemy are trying to breach a fortification through a bottleneck, the gren trap prevents you bringing equal force of arms, you need to go through this one at a time, and while you are doing it you are defenseless, to use the spiral staircase analogy, you cannot swing your sword. The defender inside the building still has full range of movement, you throw a grenade in, he can retreat further inside, he throws a grenade at you while you are in this bottleneck and you are dead, no questions asked. If fortune favors you and you make it inside, you need to hold against all of the defenders solo, until your next re-enforcement can make it through the bottleneck, you need to defend his prone ***, and so on and so forth for all the attackers trying to breach. Meanwhile, the defenders are shooting your re-enforcements from the windows and other enemies outside the building are regrouping to attack your squad in the rear.

In the chaos of this moment, those two seconds are critical to your survival, for the defenders, they have all the time in the world. They should never have to traverse grenade traps under fire, as if the enemy are in a position to fire on the gren traps your window for a sally has allready closed and you should be deffending the cache to the last man.

I get your case, but that analogy couldn't be more wrong when the Blufor can access a compound more than in one way. Especially if they can throw a rope over the wall...

Grenade traps are there to cut the arteries leading to the cache, and by this I mean not inside the 50 m radius. That kit is often used too passively instead of planting close to the enemy in the frontlines - the gren traps I mean, everything else is through wtv discretion.

The trouble with grenade traps is that they are scarce enough that the majority of the time team players don't need to be looking out for them. I occasionally walk over grenade traps even when they are marked because I can't always have my map up or keep track of where they're all placed. They either need to be a primary tactic for the insurgents so that they're common enough for people to look out for them, or they need to be replaced by getting people to use the pipebombs instead.

Also people place the things in some pretty stupid places. Putting them on the cache is a silly idea, it will normally teamkill people, and by the time the enemy get close a friendly will already have stepped on it and it will be useless. Even if the thing doesn't team-kill, it will hold up the enemy very briefly, or they will just have to stand back and throw incendiaries in from a distance.

Yesterday on fallujah west, RPG insurgent saw me and my USMC squad, dropped his kit, and ran into a friendly grenade trap LOL!

Arcturus_Shielder wrote:I get your case, but that analogy couldn't be more wrong when the Blufor can access a compound more than in one way. Especially if they can throw a rope over the wall...

Grenade traps are there to cut the arteries leading to the cache, and by this I mean not inside the 50 m radius. That kit is often used too passively instead of planting close to the enemy in the frontlines - the gren traps I mean, everything else is through wtv discretion.

The grapnel hook is hardly a new invention Arcturus and have been used to circumvent fortifications for nearly as long as there have been fortifications, although the user is just substituting one treacherous bottleneck for another, so the analogy still holds true IMHO. I agree though that the gren traps could see more active use as you describe.

Every day an idiot go out of home...

So every day you see someone that don see a trap

USNCaseySmith wrote:I cant, but that doesn't mean they weren't used I'm sure, they improvise, and a grenade trap sure seems to be like an improvised weapon to me.

I only used vietnam because the vietcong were, in essence, fighting like insurgents, with guerilla type tactics.

And yes, it takes you 2 seconds to move under or around maybe longer, now a whole squad who is trying to get through the one choke point (This is under the instance of one grenade trap) and if theyre stupid all 6 of them will hit their bellies and try to crawl, for anyone watching that choke point from relative safety, thats 6 easy kills. If they dont crawl and miss the traps and run right into them, thats 6 easy kills for you.

I was only talking about using the map because I know, at least I do, that one of the main things for SA is to glance at the map quite periodically, even in somewhat of a fire fight (Too look for alley ways I can flank the people my squad is firefighting against, hazards, and other things, mind you Im in cover before I glance, but the point is you glance up there anyway so you should be seeing these nice easy read signs right there for your convenience.

Sure they do tons of harm if you have people that lay them right when the game starts off or lay them right next to the cache, but when they are smart about it and wait and place them in better places, then they do the opposite of your post. Refer to the last paragraph of Boris. T. Spiders post.

They might well be used to some extant, but certainly not to what we see them in pr.

Thats a couple of big if's you are hoping for on those GT's. If they are stupid and if they dont see them then you'll get a few kills. how often does that happen? now ask yourself how many tk's from GT's you see. Do some simple math...

Its not if GT's kill enemies of course they do, its wether the trade off of you tking more of your own team is worth that trade off. Honestly nothing kills morale more than a great defense going to hell because someone hit a gt and killed 4 or 5 of the defenders who were in the range. Blame the people who didnt see it if you want, but to me its the idiots who keep putting them down when they know its far more likely to cause a tk then "save a cache" lmao

Boris.T.Spider wrote:Yet somehow at least two BLUFOR soldiers managed to navigate these 50 grenade traps uncontested? I'm not buying this scenario. Defenders don't need speed, they are where they need to be already.



This technique has been part of military doctrine for thousands of years, from the medieval spiral staircase and sharpened stakes too the modern day explosive booby traps, they are designed to slow attackers down. Why because attackers rely on speed, if their attack is blunted it fails, history shows this. If you ever get a chance to visit a European castle check this out for yourself, get a stick or toy sword from the gift shop in your right hand and try to run up a spiral stair case and imagine you have to hack at the defenders holding position on the stairs. Then imagine there are 50 guys behind you snarled up right out into the courtyard getting peppered with arrows because all you can do is brace your shield and push against near impossible odds.

The situation with grenade traps is exactly the same, the enemy are trying to breach a fortification through a bottleneck, the gren trap prevents you bringing equal force of arms, you need to go through this one at a time, and while you are doing it you are defenseless, to use the spiral staircase analogy, you cannot swing your sword. The defender inside the building still has full range of movement, you throw a grenade in, he can retreat further inside, he throws a grenade at you while you are in this bottleneck and you are dead, no questions asked. If fortune favors you and you make it inside, you need to hold against all of the defenders solo, until your next re-enforcement can make it through the bottleneck, you need to defend his prone ***, and so on and so forth for all the attackers trying to breach. Meanwhile, the defenders are shooting your re-enforcements from the windows and other enemies outside the building are regrouping to attack your squad in the rear.

In the chaos of this moment, those two seconds are critical to your survival, for the defenders, they have all the time in the world. They should never have to traverse grenade traps under fire, as if the enemy are in a position to fire on the gren traps your window for a sally has allready closed and you should be deffending the cache to the last man.

Its no less likely then your story about a few gt's holding off an enenmy attack on cache.

Defenders dont need speed? are you insane? Do you know what interior lines of defense are? Do you know that bottlenecking your own team takes that advantage away? I mean seriously think about what you are saying.

In PR is one technique how use grande trap effective.

immagine from where enemy could attact. Where thay can setup LMG or move from river or use a rope. And there just there you drop a granade trap.
Behind trees where thay could cover. On a corners wrom possible enemy attack. And where friendly will not move becouse enemy are close.
And this is how i use a granade trap. And minimalize friendly causelties. Lots of enemy used to be blow up
Try it. But you need time to prepare defending perimmeter. And the blow will give u time advatage