Project Reality Forums

mat552 wrote:there are virtually no restriction on the capabilities of anti air in PR. The only specialized training required is for mobile AA, and even that kit is requestable anywhere you could use the AA.

Although the AA in PR is fairly good at doing its job, it's far from perfect. When a missile hits a helicopter and the helicopter is still operable, there are problems to be fixed. Especially when in older versions that same missile hitting the same helicopter had different results.

What I believe is the factor that caused this, is the reducing of the explosive power of those missiles. Back in 0.85 or so they reduced the explosion of the AA missiles because too many people would request the kit and fire it at infantry. That and a couple of the helicopters are just beastly strong when it comes to soaking up missiles.

But, I strongly dislike this idea that people seem to have, that just because being a pilot in PR requires some heavy training and practice, that the AA shouldn't be easy to use, or that it should be at some disadvantage because it's easy to use. That's complete and utter bullshit.

Your reward for taking the time to learn to fly in PR, is the great power those assets provide a team, not an easier time of staying alive. Should we reduce the HATs power, so it requires 3 or 4 hits to take out a tank? After all, being the crew of a tank takes more skill and experience than firing a HAT.

badmojo420 wrote:Although the AA in PR is fairly good at doing its job, it's far from perfect. When a missile hits a helicopter and the helicopter is still operable, there are problems to be fixed. Especially when in older versions that same missile hitting the same helicopter had different results.

Mmm, we also had the bugged attack hueys, those were fun..ish. Unfortunately for the modern infantry man, helicopters are made of things like metal, rubber, glass, and composites. A single, or even multiple hits require more luck than skill to disable a helicopter in a single shot. Even in PR, there are effects that can, and frequently do, occur. Losing main power, losing stabilizer control, controls locking up/losing efficient all happen after a hit, or none happen. It's all in the luck of the draw.

badmojo420 wrote: What I believe is the factor that caused this, is the reducing of the explosive power of those missiles. Back in 0.85 or so they reduced the explosion of the AA missiles because too many people would request the kit and fire it at infantry. That and a couple of the helicopters are just beastly strong when it comes to soaking up missiles.

Like I and others have said, helicopters are a rather hardy race of flying machine, lacking the fragile grace of a fixed wing aircraft, instead trading it for the brute force of additional mass (comparatively mind you, I'm not insinuating an AH1Z weighs more than an A10) and extra armor in the process. It certainly isn't the pilots fault that MANPADS and Stinger/IGLA operators couldn't keep their barrels pointed skyward, any cries for sympathy fall on deaf ears to me, it's simply same situation, different kit as when the pilots were stripped of any option of defending themselves because people thought it novel to HALO/HAHO. I assure you, more often than not, hitting a helicopter is usually fatal to the bird. If you hit it four or more grid squares from repairs, it has to make it back there in a "bleeding" state, no small task, frequently fatal.

badmojo420 wrote: But, I strongly dislike this idea that people seem to have, that just because being a pilot in PR requires some heavy training and practice, that the AA shouldn't be easy to use, or that it should be at some disadvantage because it's easy to use. That's complete and utter bullshit.

I (and I cannot speak for others) feel that it's a sign that people still loath pilots, either from grudges from vBF2, recently learned distrust from a few bad apples, or a combination of both. I feel I am cheered when I fall, held up as an example of what is wrong with PR, but when I succeed, I am quietly ignored, as is all I have helped do both on and off the field. I feel there should be some parity of skill required, if only to compensate for the near total lack of realism as pertains to aviation in PR. All I want is a chance to have the same fun as the people on the ground have, especially taking into consideration I have only three maps in which I may feel the joy of fixed wing flight.

badmojo420 wrote: Your reward for taking the time to learn to fly in PR, is the great power those assets provide a team, not an easier time of staying alive. Should we reduce the HATs power, so it requires 3 or 4 hits to take out a tank? After all, being the crew of a tank takes more skill and experience than firing a HAT.

In fact, my reward is the mere opportunity to assist the infantry complete their objectives. I ask only for an equal distribution of power, or close enough to let me close the distance through work. As far as your tank example, I would be very inclined to agree with your hypothetical position of nerfing HATs if the only threat facing an MBT were other MBTs and HATs. In actuality, they face a different set of challenges entirely, forgoing maneuvering in three dimensions for maneuvering in two and finding cover in the third. Tanks have a much less intensive and much longer loiter time than aircraft, and have three, independent sets of eyes possible (they will have two, and there is no way to circumvent that) to assist in threat detection, positioning, fire control, and situational awareness. The simple act of keeping an aircraft in the air and in bounds requires a tremendous amount of concentration, totally out of scale with the skill required to maneuver a tank around a mountain range or even a city.


AA already requires, in my mind, the correct amount of skill for the power they have. It is a very low intensity operation to slowly scan the horizon for that magic green box, knowing it is not until you choose to go for a lock that you will be forced to reveal yourself. Once you have that lock (which you only need for a quarter of a second), save an act of your enemy's deity, your missiles will fly straight and true, delivering a frank rebuttal to the assertion they deserve the same airspace you do.

mat552 wrote:I feel there should be some parity of skill required, if only to compensate for the near total lack of realism as pertains to aviation in PR. All I want is a chance to have the same fun as the people on the ground have, especially taking into consideration I have only three maps in which I may feel the joy of fixed wing flight.

I couldn't disagree with you more. PR is a team game. Everyone has to do their part for the teams effort, no matter how boring or tedious the job can get. I know the jets/attack helicopters have the ability to not only defeat infantry and armor, but also the AA emplacements and vehicles. I've seen it first hand, while manning both. It's all just a matter of teamwork and pilot skill & discipline.

I honestly don't pilot attack aircraft in PR, because it's boring while still being highly stressful. For example you fly above the clouds and drop bombs on markers, but if you screw up and miss, your guys pay the price.

If I wanted to have the same amount of fun as infantry combat is in pr, except while flying, I wouldn't be playing PR. Just like if I wanted to do some racing, I wouldn't play Grand Theft Auto. Do i think GTAs cars/driving sucks? No, it gets the job done. That game isn't only about Racing, it's about the the whole package. PR isn't just about air combat, it's about combined forces in larger scale environments using realistic tactics.

But, that's not to say you can't have a lot of fun racing in GTA, or flying in PR. Just that other things in the two games are more enjoyable to me.

mat552 wrote:The simple act of keeping an aircraft in the air and in bounds requires a tremendous amount of concentration, totally out of scale with the skill required to maneuver a tank around a mountain range or even a city.

Didn't they remove the out of bounds penalty for pilots?

mat552 wrote:AA already requires, in my mind, the correct amount of skill for the power they have. It is a very low intensity operation to slowly scan the horizon for that magic green box, knowing it is not until you choose to go for a lock that you will be forced to reveal yourself. Once you have that lock (which you only need for a quarter of a second), save an act of your enemy's deity, your missiles will fly straight and true, delivering a frank rebuttal to the assertion they deserve the same airspace you do.

First off, a quarter of a second is not even close. Once you paint the aircraft, you wait around 3-4 seconds before you acquire the solid lock and fire, then is the quarter of a second delay before the helicopter hears the warning. And the warning is tied to the solid lock, and not the firing of the missile. So, if you don't fire as soon as you have the lock the pilot will flare and you will most likely lose the lock. So at least a little skill is added there because you essentially can't aim the launcher at the helicopter until 3 or 4 seconds before you think he'll be in a good spot to fire at him. This is mainly with handheld systems, that have a range lower than the view distance. But, its still useful with emplacements because you can let the target get closer which means less time to pop flares and divert the missile.

But, I could say the same thing as you said, except about aircraft and laser targets being an easy and safe system to use. You should really only be exposing yourself when engaging a lased target, which in a jet doesn't always mean exposing yourself at all.(except of course to other aircraft)

Yeah, the problem is that CAS is just way too... boring, I guess. You barely have enough time to react to a threat of any kind, so you can't evade. Flares should be toned down in power, but amped in number. AA should reload faster, and fire more often, going slower, and turning better. CAS pilots live for that moment when the adrenaline is pumping and you're dodging tracers and missiles, with airbursts all around you, dumping flares like it's the 4th of July, praying that a random missile doesn't come and smack you in the face.

There should be more of that. More distractions that prevent the pilot from being able to actually complete his mission, but distractions that aren't immediately so deadly that you just lose the airplane in a very loud kaboom. There should be that moment when the missiles all start slowly streaking up, with their smoky rocket engines screaming up towards your canopy, and you start realizing that you need to evade. Fast.

FusionGames wrote:Well... i don't know how are things today on helos and planes, but since i played Lock On Modern Air Combat and Flaming Cliffs 2 years ago, IR Missiles were not known by the target, but them still go to the flares (because of heat).

So what im suggesting here is to

1) Remove AA Lock on sound for handheld AA.
2) Remove AA lock on sound for AA Stinger deploy if they are IR missiles.
3) Make handheld AA and AA Stinger delpoy less efective against planes (i don't think a 800km/h plane can be hitted by a handheld missile if you are over 500mt plus i don't know exactly the speed of the missile, but i don't think it can reach mach 1 beign an infatry portable one).
4) Set max stinger placement to 2 per faction.

What will this bring to us:

1) Realistic AA gameplay.
2) Less AA spam on map.
3) Enforce the use of flares on enemy territory.
4) More realism.

This is all I read when I see this ;P

badmojo420 wrote:I couldn't disagree with you more. PR is a team game. Everyone has to do their part for the teams effort, no matter how boring or tedious the job can get. I know the jets/attack helicopters have the ability to not only defeat infantry and armor, but also the AA emplacements and vehicles. I've seen it first hand, while manning both. It's all just a matter of teamwork and pilot skill & discipline.

..took the words right out of my mouth? There's no point of contention here, though I think that with the variety in PR right now, there's no reason to be doing something you find truly boring without any positive aspects. For me that means Infantry and Armor. For you, that means Aviation. I think we compliment each other's rolls rather nicely.

badmojo420 wrote: I honestly don't pilot attack aircraft in PR, because it's boring while still being highly stressful.

I honestly don't do any infantry work in PR, because it's boring while still being highly stressful.

To each their own, and that's all it needs to be. The system is fairly balanced right now, even if it's tremendously unforgiving of any slip up on the pilot side.

badmojo420 wrote: PR isn't just about air combat, it's about combined forces in larger scale environments using realistic tactics.

Didn't they remove the out of bounds penalty for pilots?

I no longer think Project Reality is about realistic tactics, it can't be. Tactics that work great in real life, Bounding Overwatch, Thatch Weaves, Staggered Armor formations, all work absolutely terrible in PR, but I don't fault the game or the devs for this. Additionally, if I wanted it to be entirely about air combat, I'd play Combined Arms, which, in my opinion, went waaaay overboard attempting to add new features centered around aircraft, over did it, and fell by the wayside. It isn't entirely about the infantry though either, I don't see it as fair or realistic for there to be a magic "Kill all aircraft" button, buildable anywhere, that can't be dealt with except by assaulting that button. By the same token, I'd be pretty bored if I could actually just wave my hands and destroy the entire enemy team at no risk to myself.

badmojo420 wrote: First off, a quarter of a second is not even close.

But, I could say the same thing as you said, except about aircraft and laser targets being an easy and safe system to use. You should really only be exposing yourself when engaging a lased target, which in a jet doesn't always mean exposing yourself at all.(except of course to other aircraft)

My apologies for being unclear. It does take more than an instant to achieve lock, but once you're locked, that is, the missile has acquired target, is tracking target, and when launched, will follow and intercept target, it takes only as long as you take to press the trigger to send the missile away. Said missile cannot be spoofed by flares and cannot be avoided, barring a freak turn of events. Once I hear that tone, I'm already consigned mentally to the respawn of both me and the asset. I still maneuver wildly and drop any remaining flares, but those efforts are always fruitless.

I agree, Laser Targets are a tremendously safe and effective system, especially when they're actually used. If Infrared AA missiles could lock onto friendly aircraft, then I'd be much more apt to agree there should be no warning. In the same way that dropping a bomb BVR on an attack marker leaves me open to counterlazing and a large teamkill, firing missiles on air targets you can barely see, let alone identify, is a bad idea. This is prevented by a magical IFF system which is 100% accurate and viewable from any distance. As it is, to minimize friendly fire, I must dip into visual range, dispense ordinance, then retreat out of visual range.

Hunt3r wrote:CAS pilots live for that moment when the adrenaline is pumping and you're dodging tracers and missiles, with airbursts all around you, dumping flares like it's the 4th of July, praying that a random missile doesn't come and smack you in the face.

If I'm in that moment, I chalk it up to a tremendous failure, both in my plan of attack and execution of the attack. Perhaps most all CAS pilots are like this, but I am not. It isn't about thrills, it's about managing the highly complex operation of maintaining correct operation of the aircraft, attacking targets assigned the highest priority by the team. It's not about my kill count, or the thrill of the hunt. The adrenaline rush I feel only kicks in once I'm safely back at cruising altitude, knowing I am credit to team.

When you refer the the anti-air emplacements as 'a kill all aircraft instantly button', it's hard to have a reasonable debate. It's clear you've already made up your mind.

mat552 wrote:My apologies for being unclear. It does take more than an instant to achieve lock, but once you're locked, that is, the missile has acquired target, is tracking target, and when launched, will follow and intercept target, it takes only as long as you take to press the trigger to send the missile away. Said missile cannot be spoofed by flares and cannot be avoided, barring a freak turn of events. Once I hear that tone, I'm already consigned mentally to the respawn of both me and the asset. I still maneuver wildly and drop any remaining flares, but those efforts are always fruitless.

I get the impression that you're basing your knowledge of anti-aircraft systems solely on your experience while being on the receiving end of them.

Have you considered that you're not even noticing the anti-air systems that never fired at you? Meaning, as a pilot, every time you hear the sound, it's because someone was in the right position to fire a good clean shot and kill you. Therefore, you would associate ANY incoming missiles as inevitable death. When in reality, the people manning the anti-air don't reveal themselves to you unless they know they'll have a good shot at killing you. I'm sure I'm not the only person that uses this strategy.

You don't have to be evading the actual anti-aircraft missiles to evade the AA. It happens a lot where an aircraft will fly into range, properly using his flares or terrain masking, and the missile never gets a chance to be fired. But, the only one who knows that this happened, is the guy manning the AA. The pilot and passengers just assume there was no AA present.

It's the same with tanks and the HAT missiles. Once that missiles is in the air flying at you, you're almost always screwed. But that doesn't mean the HAT is too powerful or easy to use. It means you left yourself vulnerable and someone seized the opportunity.

Dev1200 wrote:This is all I read when I see this ;P

and that does not make his point invalid, IR locks do not give warning to pilots. there's no way for a plane to detect an IR lock. Only Radar locks and missile launches, however i doubt the technology's ability to detect the launch of something so small as the ones in PR, maybe a larger SAM for sure but i really doubt it can detect a manpad AA launched from some guy's apartment room window.

mat552 wrote:If I'm in that moment, I chalk it up to a tremendous failure, both in my plan of attack and execution of the attack. Perhaps most all CAS pilots are like this, but I am not. It isn't about thrills, it's about managing the highly complex operation of maintaining correct operation of the aircraft, attacking targets assigned the highest priority by the team. It's not about my kill count, or the thrill of the hunt. The adrenaline rush I feel only kicks in once I'm safely back at cruising altitude, knowing I am credit to team.

You still have to admit that you feel like a survivor if that happens, and it does get the palms sweaty.

Anyway, I believe that there should be more flares. About 120 on large jets and helicopters, 60 on helicopters about as big as the BH and Huey, and 30 on anything as big as the Littlebird helicopters. This amount would make it reasonable to pop off flares every few seconds while within the AA danger zone, as currently most of the time jets land because they are out of flares, rather than munitions. Especially when an A-10 has to do something like employ Mavericks.

Bringerof_D wrote:Only Radar locks and missile launches, however i doubt the technology's ability to detect the launch of something so small as the ones in PR, maybe a larger SAM for sure but i really doubt it can detect a manpad AA launched from some guy's apartment room window.

Bringer please check my last post, the AN/AAR 57 CMWS was designed to detect the launch of manpads. It also sends a warning over the heli communication suite as well as auto deploying flares. IIRC it uses both IR and UV sensors to detect the launch of any missile system pointed towards the helicopter.

I say you just give the visual warning as soon as someone starts locking you up so you don't have to waste your flares, which are rather scarce right now.