Project Reality Forums

Hear hear, that was a thing of beauty

One of the best changes just after 3d markers one.

Police here in Brazil have confiscated various sniper rifles, the narcotraficants buy it and use it almost perfectly even without know what is bullet drop, so, i think sniper kits and marksman kits can be stealed by ins, well, atleast by ins.

gkelly wrote:Police here in Brazil have confiscated various sniper rifles, the narcotraficants buy it and use it almost perfectly even without know what is bullet drop, so, i think sniper kits and marksman kits can be stealed by ins, well, atleast by ins.

And the narcotraficants are faced with ranges up to 700m, yet they still can score a hit, right?

gkelly wrote:Police here in Brazil have confiscated various sniper rifles, the narcotraficants buy it and use it almost perfectly even without know what is bullet drop, so, i think sniper kits and marksman kits can be stealed by ins, well, atleast by ins.

Perhaps read the bit about the MILITARY ADVISERS. They know what they're doing.

gkelly wrote:Police here in Brazil have confiscated various sniper rifles, the narcotraficants buy it and use it almost perfectly even without know what is bullet drop, so, i think sniper kits and marksman kits can be stealed by ins, well, atleast by ins.

This fall under domestic violence. Those guys buy those rifles, then take them home or somewhere they can learn how to use them before taking on the Rio police. It's completely different circumstances to an unconventional fighter picking up an M24 with a mildot system he's never seen before and hitting a target 800m away in the middle of combat.

[R-DEV]Jaymz wrote:This fall under domestic violence. Those guys buy those rifles, then take them home or somewhere they can learn how to use them before taking on the Rio police. It's completely different circumstances to an unconventional fighter picking up an M24 with a mildot system he's never seen before and hitting a target 800m away in the middle of combat.

TBH, I understand the reasoning to why this changed, however I personally don't fully agree with it..

By your reasoning you stated that when you spawn in as an AK-armed insurgent you have the training needed to use that weapon effectively.. Right, so far I agree with you.

Now as an insurgent you have kits spawning at your main base (RPGs, marksman kits etc), how is this any different? Would really an "AK-armed insurgent" have the know-how to effectively use this marskman rifle? By your own logic, no.

Sure, it's not entirely the same thing, but it's still a valid point.

Also, you're still alowing Insurgents to pick up and use Rifleman kits. Isn't this the exact same thing? I mean, if you compare the AK to the M16 and say "Sure, AK-armed insurgent A can still effectively use an M16", how can you then NOT say that the same goes for PKM-armed insurgent B and a SAW? By your own logic the knowledge you get from using weapon type A is in a way directly trasferable to another weapon within the same class, but only for assault rifles?

TBH, I find that stupid and annoying. And highly illogical.

HAT kits I can understand, I really do. But SAW.. No. (Or even grenadier for that matter..).

First off, I read your entire post.
I do not have a problem with restricting some kits: AA, and HAT.
I have reservations with restricting the following for Insurgents: CE and SAW and Grenadier and medic.
I am absolutely furious for restricting these kits: Officer.


Let me propose a simple solution:
Fork all of the BLUFOR FORCES on insurgency maps. USMC_AAS and USMC_INS, UK_AAS and UK_INS etc.
Simple python scripting.
FOR USMC_AAS everything stays the same for now.
FOR USMC_INS Remove the kits you(the DEVs) want removed from Insurgency maps. (My suggestion) Create an alternate kit for CE removing the C4. A few lines of comments will be easy enough to write so maintenance can be passed on to new blood in the future)
Use the scripting to maintain a single repository for the trunk faction. simple to maintain. Adds redundancy and error checking from the start.

You can then use the USMC_AAS factoin for AAS and Command and Control/
You can use the USMC_INS Faction for Insurgency (and Skirmish.)


Your military advisor is from the British Isles I can guess.
I assure you at a minimum a good 30% or more of USMC front line grunts know how to shoot an AK variant or bolt action rifle or large caliber rimfire BEFORE their first walk into a recruiters office. Hamas was gifted US military hardware by President Clinton... as reflected in the game by Hamas having M16 etc rifles.


FIrst off, Squad Assault Rifle, SAW, LMG, PKM etc:
Hell, I live in the suburbs of New York City and have access to PKMs several weekends a year... where the owner needs a Class 2 Federal Firearms License just to possess the weapon. And in most states you can own, buy sell and transfer them without much problem at all. Our PR players in texas regularly talk in VOIP about their new Auto, Semi-Auto and "sniper rifle" purchases and the best price for bulk ammo purchases.
The SAW is about the only thing the Insurgents have now to defend the 81% smaller cache marker zone. And you took it from them. Nothing else is going to defeat a BLUFOR squad. So many fewer pleasurable moments of Cache defense Alamo for insurgents due to this.


Secondly: Combat Engineer.... The Iraq, Afghanistan and Hamas factoins have military level trained Explosive Ordinance Specialists on staff who are well trained, combat hardened, and well funded with unbroken supply lines to the outside world. Either Baathists, Iraqi Revolutionary Guard, Iranians (of various branches), Hamas, Hezbollah, ISI, Pakistani Military, Soviet era veterans of the Muslim persuasion, and Afghani Muhajadeen warlord bands who are vets from the counterinsurgency against the Soviet invasion.
Iraq had more military explosive ordinance stockpiled than Turkey at the time Saddam fell, and a infrastructure and workforce to (sorta) maintain it.

Third: LMG, SAW...
You shrank the Cache search zone by 81% and removed the only weapon the Insurgents have to effectively defend a cache area from further than non-scoped visual range.
It's a SAW, not some miracle weapon, a vast majority of US Army recruits qualify at the range on it in their first attempt.

Fourth: BLUFOR Officer Kit:
Either allow Opfor to pick this kit up.... or give the INsurgent officer his god forsaken shovel back!
Why do you hate the guys who volunteer to lead Insurgent Squads? Yes, HATE, you despise them ... there is no other words to describe the combination of steps taken to totally ruin the gameplay experience of Insurgent Squad Leaders. You think giving us another 120 seconds between cache marker spawn times is some sort of just compensation for denying us the ability to scavenge a scoped officer kit and move to a new location to build a new hideout? Or to do anything required of the Insurgent Squad leaders? The sequence of events that would make the 120 seconds added time advantageous to the Insurgents is so exceptional from standard gameplay as to be phantasmagorical. It's totally nuts.
SO what the cans will look like USMC or Brit or IDF... a radio is a radio. Did a military advisor get you all hung up on restricted frequency jargon and you gave in? Is purple smoke magical? Are insurgents unable to operate semi-auto sidearms?
Taking away the BLUFOR Officer Kit from Insurgents is disastrous and directly punishes squad leaders who take on noobs and strangers into their squads.

LITOralis.nMd wrote: Your military advisor is from the British Isles I can guess.
I assure you at a minimum a good 30% or more of USMC front line grunts know how to shoot an AK variant or bolt action rifle or large caliber rimfire BEFORE their first walk into a recruiters office.

You guess incorrectly, mate. That particular adviser I quoted is American. He has trained both fellow American soldiers on foreign weapon familiarisation and vice versa for soldiers from other countries. Maybe if he's feeling nice, he'll pop in here and say hello.

LITOralis.nMd wrote: FIrst off, Squad Assault Rifle, SAW, LMG, PKM etc:
Hell, I live in the suburbs of New York City and have access to PKMs several weekends a year... where the owner needs a Class 2 Federal Firearms License just to possess the weapon. And in most states you can own, buy sell and transfer them without much problem at all. Our PR players in texas regularly talk in VOIP about their new Auto, Semi-Auto and "sniper rifle" purchases and the best price for bulk ammo purchases.

You're comparing domesticated ownership and familiarisation with weaponry to using enemy weapons in combat. It's a flawed point imo.

LITOralis.nMd wrote: Fourth: BLUFOR Officer Kit:
Either allow Opfor to pick this kit up.... or give the INsurgent officer his god forsaken shovel back!
Why do you hate the guys who volunteer to lead Insurgent Squads? Yes, HATE, you despise them ... there is no other words to describe the combination of steps taken to totally ruin the gameplay experience of Insurgent Squad Leaders. You think giving us another 120 seconds between cache marker spawn times is some sort of just compensation for denying us the ability to scavenge a scoped officer kit and move to a new location to build a new hideout? Or to do anything required of the Insurgent Squad leaders? The sequence of events that would make the 120 seconds added time advantageous to the Insurgents is so exceptional from standard gameplay as to be phantasmagorical. It's totally nuts.
SO what the cans will look like USMC or Brit or IDF... a radio is a radio. Did a military advisor get you all hung up on restricted frequency jargon and you gave in? Is purple smoke magical? Are insurgents unable to operate semi-auto sidearms?
Taking away the BLUFOR Officer Kit from Insurgents is disastrous and directly punishes squad leaders who take on noobs and strangers into their squads.

This makes no sense. Your only point is that you can't use a BLUFOR rifle and side-arm as an Insurgent/Taliban cell leader. You can still do everything else! (Place deployables, call in mortar strikes, place RP's, spot, call for support and more). Don't know about you, but I'll be pretty damn happy with my FN-Fal and Makarov as Insurgent Cell leader thank you very much!

Eriand wrote: Also, you're still alowing Insurgents to pick up and use Rifleman kits. Isn't this the exact same thing? I mean, if you compare the AK to the M16 and say "Sure, AK-armed insurgent A can still effectively use an M16", how can you then NOT say that the same goes for PKM-armed insurgent B and a SAW? By your own logic the knowledge you get from using weapon type A is in a way directly trasferable to another weapon within the same class, but only for assault rifles?

TBH, I find that stupid and annoying. And highly illogical.

The way the team decided on it was that all rifleman variants will be exempt from the change. We couldn't get enough agreement to have all kits blocked. Personally, I would have preferred it to be all kits (so would that adviser I quoted). But what was settled on is what will be in 0.95 and the team accepts that.

Jaymz you said exactly my thoughts on the reasoning in much, much greater detail, thanks. I do find it very amusing that some people are suggesting to leave the marksman and sniper kit available to the other side but not a grenadier. (grenadier seems much more plausible to me but still massively unrealistic)

This is one of those changes that has to happen in PR much like rally points. It may be a shock to some but I can tell already it will improve gameplay immeasurably to the point where few would want to go back. People may complain now and after the release for a month or two but they'll adapt and start to like the changes. Every release is the same pattern. People see changes without playing them and make conjecture about the perceived weakness of a faction/gameplay facet. over the next two months criticism disappears and the community as a whole rallies around the new concepts. The righteous fury over rally points and SL spawning being removed was both sad and hilarious at the same time. Now the insurgents in particular will not be a faction heavily armed with their opponents like a conventional army and be much, much more realistic. Over time this will be seen as correct more and more, it is practically a certainty.

The insurgents already have plenty of tools to kill the BLUFOR and any problems can either be balanced in the future or are map specific. Their weapons are not significantly inferior pea-shooters to the BLUFOR weapons, you just have to get creative with a lack of scopes. Armour is the major threat in insurgency not infantry. I think with the changes coming up insurgency will revolve more around attacking as a team and clearing out the cache area properly than the current lucky tank shell or lone wolf's advantage over that mass attack.

If I were to speculate without any foresight of future gameplay I would wager that the BLUFOR will be more powerful against insurgents and become a little imbalanced. Not because of their weapons, not because the INS can't pick them up or the mortars. I think thermal vision will make the biggest change, lighting up enemies like a Christmas tree from hundreds of metres away. With vehicles more powerful than ever I think the maps with lots of IFVs like Al Basrah will become more biased towards coalition forces while ramiel will improve significantly in balance. That is my assumption going in on face value but I will save any proper criticism until I've played the changes for a month or so.

I can really only say one thing.

OMG

OriginalWarrior wrote:Sure, maybe a handful of insurgents can use a sniper rifle, but that doesnt mean you should have to attack a cache with 6 SAWs firing at you. Think about it. This is going to make the game a whole lot better.

I hated when you attack the cache and face 2 saw squads covering every single degree of approach. This change will make a game much much better, hopefully it will help against ninjas as well

Tbh I never liked the Insurgents picking up US Kits, the point of Insurgency is so it isn't conventional vs conventional but this is ruined when half the insurgents have US Kits :/

This makes no sense. Your only point is that you can't use a BLUFOR rifle and side-arm as an Insurgent/Taliban cell leader. You can still do everything else! (Place deployables, call in mortar strikes, place RP's, spot, call for support and more). Don't know about you, but I'll be pretty damn happy with my FN-Fal and Makarov as Insurgent Cell leader thank you very much!

You are missing my point.
A player volunteers to be squad leader for an Insurgent side on a public server with an unlocked open to the public squad.
This player has no control over who joins his squad.
In 0.95:
He can place a deployable, but he can't shovel it. He is also having to nag his squadmates to shovel for him. Picking up a random BLUFOR kit can now kill him while he searches for a shovel.
He can call in a mortar strike, but can't be combat effective at the same time beyond naked eye visual range. (Either you have your FN-FAL up or you have your binocs up).
He can spot for the squad or call in Contact to a CO, but he can not be combat effective at the same time. (Either you have your FN-FAL up or you have your binocs up).
He can't accurately spot beyond 125 meters for squadmates, yet the BLUFOR already know within 40 meters of where the cache is... yet Insurgents can only build a Hideout every 200 meters. And now the Cell Leader can't even shovel his own hideout.
He can take an elevated position on the battlefield to spot but can not use a scoped rifle to defend himself and perform Cell Leader duties at the same time. And now BLUFOR will have snipers and marksmen present at almost every minute of every round since Insurgents can't capture the kit. Blufor will permanently own the rooftops in Burning Sands, Fallujah, Ramiel and Gaza.
He as a volunteer will not be able to maintain any position that requires a scope without the assistance of his squadmates... yet the SL has no real control over who joins him or if they listen to him. Now the SL will also have NO ability to build a hideout to have smurfs join him.

You gave him a pistol and 2 extra minutes and told us to bugger off.

After so long that was the best you could come up with to balance gameplay by position?

Please, either give the Insurgent Cell Leader a shovel or a scope, or remove the shovel from every BLUFOR special kit so the BLUFOR crates are depleted and disappear quicker.

Or, give Insurgents the ability to pick up Officer, SAW, Medic and Grenadier kits to balance game play.


(Question: what is the fastest theoretical time possible to pick up a BLUFOR Medic kit, click to swap weapon, visually identify it as a medic kit, swap to patch, and drop five patches? And is that time longer than the 15 seconds allowed?)

As far as Grenadier kit.... anyone without a criminal record can buy up to a 38mm lower rail grenadier kit in most states in the USA. For about $140.) Smoke grenade launchers and accoutrements are legal.

Silly_Savage wrote:My favorite change!

For those of you bitchin' about it, you can direct your discontent towards me as I was the one who suggested it.

Thank you!!!!!

For me it would be fine with just "instant kill" if you picked up any enemy kit, but maybe this is better.

LITOralis.nMd wrote: yet the SL has no real control over who joins him or if they listen to him.

Make an InfVoiP squad. Someone's not listening to you kick them. See? Sls have control over who joins their squad.

Because you know, FOBs were never built by conventional forces in PR were they/ Yeah thats right I seem to remember there being no FOBs whatsoever liek EVAR.

Your argument is deeply flawed. Quit trolling & whining & just wait until friday.

Only thing that might be bad about this is if you still can't see what kit is what before you pick it up?

BTW MEC aren't insurgents.... So Burning Sands?

LITOralis.nMd wrote:Text blob of doooom!

1. He can kick the crappy members from the squad?
2. Its called teamwork, insurgents will learn they'll have to play with some to win (for once)

• Cache: 301, 301. (Cache Mark)
• hideout1: 200, 200 diameter 400m (Hideout mark) (Grey circle)
• hideout2: 200, 401 diameter 400m (Hideout mark) (Grey circle)
• hideout3: 401, 200 diameter 400m (Hideout mark) (Grey circle)
• hideout4: 401, 401 diameter 400m (Hideout mark) (Grey circle)
• Cache Marker search zone for BLUFOR: 301, 301 diameter 90m (Red circle)
• Cache_125M view distance: 301, 301 diameter 250m (Hideout mark) (Yellow circle)
• hideout1_125M view distance: 200, 200 diameter 250m (Hideout mark) (Yellow circle)
• hideout2_125M view distance: 200, 401 diameter 250m (Hideout mark) (Yellow circle)
• hideout3_125M view distance: 401, 200 diameter 250m (Hideout mark) (Yellow circle)
• hideout4_125M view distance: 401, 401 diameter 250m (Hideout mark) (Yellow circle)

1 Cache
4 Optimally symetrically placed hideouts
5 marker viewing distances
1 Cache Marker search zone.

--------------------------------------------------


All of the above plus

• the 0.917 Cache Marker search zone for BLUFOR, 301, 301, diameter 300m (granted it's really 280m diameter in game)

(Big red circle)

Do you notice that the area between the filled in Red Circle and the outlined red circle is the difference between 0.917 Cache Marker search zone for BLUFOR and the 0.95 Cache Marker search zone for BLUFOR? IT IS 81% SMALLER!!!
Do you all notice that the BLUFOR no longer have to search within range of the hideouts?
DO you all notice that as soon as the BLUFOR take out a single hideout now... they will have unfettered access to within 125meters of the cache?
That without all INS players being able to grab a scoped kit when available, BLUFOR WILL more often own the beyond naked eye engagement zone between 125M and 200M of Hideouts and spawn points?
That the two adjacent hideouts to the first destroyed hideout will become overrun and SL's without a scope won't be able to mark the location of hostiles on the map?
That a INS SL who escapes from an attack won't be able to build a 2nd hideout now in the opposite direction of the attackers in time to bring reinforcements in to defend the caches? Again, good squad leaders with bad squadmates will be punished for allowing open access to his squad.
SO now with even 4 perfectly placed hideouts Insurgents become dependent on CO and SL rally points... yet the rally points have 150M overrun radius... so SL's and CO's won't be within their naked eye non-scoped visual range of the BLUFOR when they lose their rally points.... Yet the CO's and SL's are the only players in any map forbidden to use a scope while properly roleplaying their position and are supposed to be running this ragtag collection? Somehow they can't get even a WalMart quality scope for a FN-FAL?

The game mechanics do not work on urban combat insurgent maps....

Did you notice that you haven't played 0.957 yet?

There's a lot more changes than this one alone. Wait until you see them all in action.

LITOralis.nMd wrote:...snip...

This isn't American politics - shouting louder doesn't make you correct. It just makes you louder. Wait until you actually play a round on insurgency before you try to explain how it has destroyed the game.