Car Bomb damage to Aircraft

[Ninja2dan]

Its silly to think that in PR that defending the main is valid. As an example, noone should be sitting on the MG's at the US main on Kokan to ensure surety of the vehicles within.

If anything, the mains should be far flung and out of reach, but smack in the middle of the map with tree cover and villages within earshot of its walls.

In my opinion it's really up to the map/level designer to figure that part out.

If the main base is located to the rear, in places where the enemy forces should not be operating under normal conditions, then a "Dome of Death" is usually in place to simulate a virtual AI defensive team that would be acting as perimeter security. But in places where any "main base" is located closer to the front lines where enemy units might be active, chances are there will be no DoD.

I don't recall that specific map (Kokan), so I don't recall the layout of the map or where this base is situated. But the fact is that if your base is in an area where the enemy forces are known to actively operate, you should have some manner of defenses up.


If the map designer did not place a DoD around that base, and the enemy is active there, what's to stop them from attacking every little troop/vehicle/aircraft that enters/leaves the base? What's to stop them from actually assaulting the base and maybe destroying any parked vehicles? If those types of threats are real, then you better have a few people watching the base and ensuring it's protected.

If the majority of players feel that it's impossible to properly secure that base during a match, for what ever reason(s), then it should be brought up in the map feedback section. If the team determines that it is causing a weak link in gameplay and having an adverse affect on the map, I'm sure they'll revise the map such as adding a DoD around the base.


But people don't seem to use common sense here. If you have a base that you know has no DoD, and the enemy constantly attacks your forces as they enter/leave, then defend it. My brain tells me to hunt the ******** down and ensure they don't get close, because they are likely doing more damage and ticket loss just outside your base gates as they are on the front lines. If someone is stabbing you in the face, you don't just ignore it.

[Operator009]

In my opinion it's really up to the map/level designer to figure that part out.

If the main base is located to the rear, in places where the enemy forces should not be operating under normal conditions, then a "Dome of Death" is usually in place to simulate a virtual AI defensive team that would be acting as perimeter security. But in places where any "main base" is located closer to the front lines where enemy units might be active, chances are there will be no DoD.

I don't recall that specific map (Kokan), so I don't recall the layout of the map or where this base is situated. But the fact is that if your base is in an area where the enemy forces are known to actively operate, you should have some manner of defenses up.


If the map designer did not place a DoD around that base, and the enemy is active there, what's to stop them from attacking every little troop/vehicle/aircraft that enters/leaves the base? What's to stop them from actually assaulting the base and maybe destroying any parked vehicles? If those types of threats are real, then you better have a few people watching the base and ensuring it's protected.

If the majority of players feel that it's impossible to properly secure that base during a match, for what ever reason(s), then it should be brought up in the map feedback section. If the team determines that it is causing a weak link in gameplay and having an adverse affect on the map, I'm sure they'll revise the map such as adding a DoD around the base.


But people don't seem to use common sense here. If you have a base that you know has no DoD, and the enemy constantly attacks your forces as they enter/leave, then defend it. My brain tells me to hunt the ******** down and ensure they don't get close, because they are likely doing more damage and ticket loss just outside your base gates as they are on the front lines. If someone is stabbing you in the face, you don't just ignore it.

Unfortunately, the person stabbing you in the face can apparently throw his knife 100m in the air.

I think I read somewhere that Kokan's main is being overhauled (bigger, better), but it still doesn't fix the problem; that aircraft going down at 60+m from a bombcar get instant alarm bells and 7 seconds to make it back to main before an epic crash landing... Every other insurgent has to really work for their kills. RPGs gotta have good aim, PKMs need to have a good sense of motion tracking to 'lead' their targets, and yes, even bombcars deployed against armour or INF take at least a little skill to operate.

Taking down a chopper with a bombcar is almost too easy. I'm not shocked to say that some bombcars don't even intend to take down some of their helicopter targets. They merely explode around INF and get the kiowa that was 50m above them, trying to kill the very same bombcar...

[Ninja2dan]

Unfortunately, the person stabbing you in the face can apparently throw his knife 100m in the air.

I think I read somewhere that Kokan's main is being overhauled (bigger, better), but it still doesn't fix the problem; that aircraft going down at 60+m from a bombcar get instant alarm bells and 7 seconds to make it back to main before an epic crash landing... Every other insurgent has to really work for their kills. RPGs gotta have good aim, PKMs need to have a good sense of motion tracking to 'lead' their targets, and yes, even bombcars deployed against armour or INF take at least a little skill to operate.

Taking down a chopper with a bombcar is almost too easy. I'm not shocked to say that some bombcars don't even intend to take down some of their helicopter targets. They merely explode around INF and get the kiowa that was 50m above them, trying to kill the very same bombcar...

First off, the "stabbing you in the face" comment refers to allowing enemy forces to attack your base, troops, or assets from directly outside your walls. Any time a base is not given a DoD, players are generally expected to maintain some form of perimeter security for just this reason. If the enemy gets in or too close, the defense isn't doing their job or your team has failed to properly assign someone to that task.

And if you can't see an enemy vehicle from 50-80m off the deck you shouldn't be operating that low. If your team absolutely must maintain a low-altitude approach path for aircraft, then the rest of the team needs to assign someone to observe that route and keep it clear of hostiles. It's not difficult, and can be done by the same squad defending the base itself.


Another point, you NEVER fly/hover directly over a target that isn't being bombed from high-altitude. If a helicopter is flying/hovering over a target and low enough to be damaged from such explosives, they were not flying correctly. Your weapon systems have a much greater range than the bomb blasts, so there is no excuse.


How about we try this: Anyone else having problems with their aircraft being blown up by IED/VBIED? Does anyone else have a problem engaging targets from above 100m? Does anyone else have a problem properly using the aircraft facility on Kokan?

[BenHamish]

If insurgents have to work for their kills, shouldn't Kiowa pilots..?

If you can't spot a red car near your base when on approach, or if you fly close enough for a bombcar to do damage, then you need to adjust tactics, surely?

I fail to see how someone in a bombcar can hunt helicopters. And if it camps waiting for you to pass, then that's surely a valid tactic?

Obviously if the blast radius is huge and you can't spot it then there's a problem. But I fail to see how a pilot with all that maneuverability can get taken out by one of these. If you see one when you're on finals, call your guys and tell them to take it out.

You get let off by the ineffecive AA missiles (or super-effective flares). These need to be tweaked before a bombcar.. They should be lethal - not easily spoofed.

[Murphy]

I believe the map in question (Kokan) does in fact have a DoD in place, but the base is very tiny and extremely easy to drive into before the DoD kills you. I've seen Gary make it to the BH landing pad before blowing up, and that vehicle is a lot harder to make the corner with then cars. Bomb cars are too easy to get smack dab in the middle of the Blufor Main on Kokan, and with so much space unused on the western side of the map I don't see why the mapper made such a vulnerable main base.

[Operator009]

If insurgents have to work for their kills, shouldn't Kiowa pilots..?

If you can't spot a red car near your base when on approach, or if you fly close enough for a bombcar to do damage, then you need to adjust tactics, surely?

I fail to see how someone in a bombcar can hunt helicopters. And if it camps waiting for you to pass, then that's surely a valid tactic?

Obviously if the blast radius is huge and you can't spot it then there's a problem. But I fail to see how a pilot with all that maneuverability can get taken out by one of these. If you see one when you're on finals, call your guys and tell them to take it out.

You get let off by the ineffecive AA missiles (or super-effective flares). These need to be tweaked before a bombcar.. They should be lethal - not easily spoofed.

Its time for another 'Did you know?'

Did you know the Kiowas camera is above its rotar blades because its made for peering just above the treeline? Did you know that as a pilot, you DONT have a 360 degree view? Did you know your co-pilot CANT see through tree's/building/fucking solid objects?

All of you telling me to fly higher than 100m and telling me I'm stupid for approaching main at altitude lower than 60m are either agruing for arguments sake, or just not very experience flying CAS in PR.

I don't want to offend, but wtf guys.

150+/- meters Technicalls light you up from pretty much any direction and 5 grids away

100+ meters AA gets you (they lock very fast when there are no trees in between you to break lock)

50-80 meters and Gary gets you

50- meters Car bombs can destroy you



Those are all the threats (besides noob pilots crashing) I am asking you to REDUCE ONE fucking threat, so I have SOMEWHERE to fly in a Kiowa. Give me at least a god damn 15meter safe flight zone where regular car bomb dont wtf pwn me, FFS.

And who-ever said kiowa pilots don't work for their kills, or that everyone else does and so should kiowa pilots...wow dude...try flying CAS and THEN commenting.

P.S.

Flares are not super-effective, AA missles are not nerfed. They still regularly bring kiowas down in 1 hit. Thats why its very important to NOT GO HIGH. And yes, people will actively get inside a bomb car and HUNT for choppers specifically.

[Cheditor]

Well if you didn't see the bomb car sneaking its way around and it destroys you (note i have never seen a bomb car take out a helicopter EVER in my hundreds of PR hours) then i fail to see why its a problem :/

[PlaynCool]

Apperantley some insurgent read this thread and today i was flying the Kiowa at Karbala.And heard lots of explosions below me over the time i am sure theese where bomb cars trying to get me but they didn't even scratch me i was flying at around 80-90m.Me and my spotter had a nice laugh for those bomb car drivers

[BenHamish]

Flares are not super-effective, AA missles are not nerfed. They still regularly bring kiowas down in 1 hit. Thats why its very important to NOT GO HIGH. And yes, people will actively get inside a bomb car and HUNT for choppers specifically.

That is a tough one, I have to admit. IRL a helicopter is dead meat if an AA missile is around - They fly so slowly that it can't do much evading, just spoofing (flares).

In Iraq/Afghanistan I would presume they fly out of the range of hand-held AA, and at altitude (thus lessening the AA's range even more). That puts them out of range of .50 and small arms.

Also, RE. the observation ball being on the roof of the Kiowa, this must be one of those problems with the tiny view distance in PR, and the small map size. IRL I would have thought they would target from at least 1-2 miles away, probably more.

In PR they are crippled with having to overfly the target.

[Mongolian_dude]

I recall seeing a guncam video on Apacheclips.com of a static VBIED being detonated by 30mm and FFAR, subsequently forcing the Apache into an emergency landing, with the crew cursing all the way to the deck.
I cant seem to find it anymore though


...mongol...

[dtacs]

[quote=""'[R-MOD"]Mongolian_dude;1519519']I recall seeing a guncam video on Apacheclips.com of a static VBIED being detonated by 30mm and FFAR, subsequently forcing the Apache into an emergency landing, with the crew cursing all the way to the deck.
I cant seem to find it anymore though


...mongol...[/quote]
[quote="AquaticPenguin""]LiveLeak.com - Apache Going Down

Apache getting taken out from a ground explosion. I think this is an Apache destroying an IED where it got a bit too close.
[/quote]
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[Ninja2dan]

And as you can see, that Apache crew overflew their target. Not a "fly by", but a "fly over". Big mistake, especially if you are not aware of what the target might contain, which in this case was a huge fucking stockpile of explosives. The air crew should have known better.



And my point stands. Any pilot that chooses to fly below a safe/recommended altitude takes the risk. And in taking that risk, you better sure as shit be scanning your approach route and a 25-50m wide lane along it. If you see ANY vehicle in that path that isn't BLUEFOR, light it up or don't fly over it. And if you lack the munitions, find a safe place to loiter while ground forces do it for you.

There is absolutely ZERO EXCUSE for a pilot to make his approach without clearing the flight path. If you can't physically scan the route yourself you get a trusted ground person to do it. If you fail to ensure your path is clear, don't be a ***** and start crying that you got blown to bits. It's a "Look both ways before you cross" kind of thing.