Project Reality Forums

I don´t know how you would do a tracer effect.. But as you say, if the tracer is another "mesh" "projectile" whatever, is it not possible to make one similar with 100% speed?

jonny, we dont need a tracer effect, we can use anything, i suggest attaching a missile trail to a projectile, but in python iirc there is nothing to get info if a player has fired there gun and even if there was it would cause the server to crash with the amount of things being done as python is all server side.


Jonny i also do not think that it is the mesh that is effecting the speed, i think dice has just made a tracer shoot slower, so adding a effect wouldnt help at all, but this is just my theory and it could be wrong.

ok, i was thinking would it be ok if we just made some guns shoot all tracers and other shoot nothing? would this become too unrealistic, or could people cope with this unrealistic part to add the ballistics?

on the plus side, it would make suppression alot more well.. crazy having every round from a saw a tracer just pounding on you.

but things like the m16, would it be ok if every round was a tracer?

zangoo wrote:but things like the m16, would it be ok if every round was a tracer?

Extremely unrealistic as in real life you would wear out your barrels in no time. Hence it is not done.

ok so all tracers or no tracers for each gun is out as a possible fix.


me and mosquill were talking and trying to find a fix, here were our 2 ideas that could fix this issue.



1) we leave it in, at 200m the m16 tracer would drop 0.2m more then a normal bullet, now a slower gun like the ak47 the tracer would drop 0.4m more at 200m. Also people in bf2 are about 1.7m tall iirc. Now i think most people playing pr would mistake this bug for a feature thinking it was implemented to make the tracers more realistic. Btw in current bf2 and pr the tracer bug is there, it is just that the bullets move at a constant speed from the muzzle of the gun and have like half of the normal gravity.



2) we make a random tracer effect attach it to the bullet at use it, this would be easy to do, but im not sure how tracers would come out, if they would be like every 3 rounds or if it would be like 5 tracers, 3 normal, 2 tracers, 10 normal, 11 tracers, ect.

ok so random tracers it is, are we be going to do damage drop off, this would really make the g3 have some advantages over the m16 at long range.

zangoo wrote:ok so all tracers or no tracers for each gun is out as a possible fix.


me and mosquill were talking and trying to find a fix, here were our 2 ideas that could fix this issue.



1) we leave it in, at 200m the m16 tracer would drop 0.2m more then a normal bullet, now a slower gun like the ak47 the tracer would drop 0.4m more at 200m. Also people in bf2 are about 1.7m tall iirc. Now i think most people playing pr would mistake this bug for a feature thinking it was implemented to make the tracers more realistic. Btw in current bf2 and pr the tracer bug is there, it is just that the bullets move at a constant speed from the muzzle of the gun and have like half of the normal gravity.



2) we make a random tracer effect attach it to the bullet at use it, this would be easy to do, but im not sure how tracers would come out, if they would be like every 3 rounds or if it would be like 5 tracers, 3 normal, 2 tracers, 10 normal, 11 tracers, ect.

Player models in BF2/PR are 2 meters tall. Not 1.7 meters tall. Which is VERY unrealistic in itself, but that the subject of another matter BF2/PR is NOT to exact scale. Someone told me once that one meter in game is the EXACT same as one meter in real life. I don't agree with that, but some do. I feel that the scale of the game is off a touch. Problem is, I don't think there is any way to prove one way OR the other.

Anywho, if the game is not to scale, then you may have to adjust the mass, gravity and speed of a given projectile to achieve a "realistic" perception. Just simply plugging in real world valves won't work if the environment in game does not match reality exactly. You'll just end up with unrealistic results.

An example would be something like this. If the in game meter is longer than a real world meter, and you used the real world speed data of 943 meters per second for a certain rifle, then the speed of the rifle/round WON'T be realistic, because it would be going slower than it's real world copy. Thus it would be unrealistic in appearance and feel/perception to someone that has seen and done it in real life.

Anyways!

Have you tried to modify the velocity, or the gravity settings for the TRACER ONLY to resolve this issue? How about trying to reduce the projectiles weight to get the desired accuracy? Or a combo of the 3, being speed, gravity, and mass to achieve the desired affect. The tracer doesn't have to be exactly the same accuracy as ball ammo, because it isn't in real life. Remember that the TRACER bullet loses weight as it travels down range, thus making it's use for pin point accuracy out of the question. It gets lighter and lighter as it travels down range because the "tracer compound" is burning off as it travels. Most small arms tracers burn out after a short time anyway. Usually somewhere around 800 meters or so. Just so long as it is close will do.

Also I was told that this issue with the tracers only happens after a distance of 250 meters or more. Is that true?

Just tossing something more into the mix

R

Allow me to add something to my above post. I'd like to clarify what I mean when I said, "not to scale". I'll do with a few questions really.

If somehow by magic or what ever, we could take the 2 meter tall soldier models from vanilla BF2 and ZAP them into real life with our magic ray gun. How tall would they be REALLY?

Would they be as tall as a "REAL LIFE" person that is exactly 2 meters tall? Or would they be shorter or taller than our 2 meter tall test subject? If he is NOT EXACTLY the same height as our "REAL LIFE" 2 meter tall test subject then the scale would certainly be "off". Wouldn't it? Make sense?

I put it this way because my friend/fellow gamer did not understand what I meant by "SCALE" until I used that example. Then he said, "OH, I see now".

R

Rico11b wrote:If somehow by magic or what ever, we could take the 2 meter tall soldier models from vanilla BF2 and ZAP them into real life with our magic ray gun. How tall would they be REALLY?

From my measurements it appears that the player model is approximately 1.62m tall.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... s1/TOP.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... BOTTOM.jpg

NOTE: y-axis is the vertical axis and the origin is somewhere between the two co-linear points. Thus the height is: 0.62864m - (-0.99225m) = ~1.62m.

Rico11b wrote:Have you tried to modify the velocity, or the gravity settings for the TRACER ONLY to resolve this issue? How about trying to reduce the projectiles weight to get the desired accuracy? Or a combo of the 3, being speed, gravity, and mass to achieve the desired affect. The tracer doesn't have to be exactly the same accuracy as ball ammo, because it isn't in real life. Remember that the TRACER bullet loses weight as it travels down range, thus making it's use for pin point accuracy out of the question. It gets lighter and lighter as it travels down range because the "tracer compound" is burning off as it travels. Most small arms tracers burn out after a short time anyway. Usually somewhere around 800 meters or so. Just so long as it is close will do.

I've tried that. Mosquill, Jonny and Zangoo have also probably tried that. It doesn't seem to work.

Rico11b wrote:Also I was told that this issue with the tracers only happens after a distance of 250 meters or more. Is that true?

From my experience of this problem, it exists at all ranges and is proportional to the projectile's gravity modifier, the range, the applied drag and inversely proportional to the muzzle velocity. Based on the current in-game ballistics, the gravity modifier is very low, the range you are describing is short, the drag is nill and the muzzle velocity relatively large so you won't be able to easily see the problem since the drop is so small to begin with. Add the random deviation in and you can't possibly tell if your tracers are dropping more that the other rounds without some serious testing.

[quote=""'[R-CON"]nedlands1;723955']From my measurements it appears that the player model is approximately 1.62m tall.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... s1/TOP.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... BOTTOM.jpg

NOTE: y-axis is the vertical axis and the origin is somewhere between the two co-linear points. Thus the height is: 0.62864m - (-0.99225m) = ~1.62m.[/quote]

What does that prove? It proves nothing. Without any REAL way to measure something in game against something in the real world, you are left with taking the BF2editor at face valve. Just taking what the game engine says, is nothing more than an assuming that it is right.. You know what they say about "assuming" right

Furthermore 1.62 meters converted to inches is equal to 63.78 inches. If you convert that to feet, and inches it would equal to 5 foot 3 3/4 inches tall. THERE AIN'T NO WAY THEY ARE THAT SHORT IN GAME. NO WAY!

Sorry for the shouting, I talk really loud. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just making a point


[quote="Jonny""]1m in game = 1m IRL. Period.

This is not negotiable.

ALL the models are different scales, the units of measurement must therefore be chosen based on something which is not arbitrary. The ingame meter is constant and does not change no matter which model you look at. Similarly the RL meter is constant,

Its not feet, its not yards, its meters. Anyone saying 'climb to 300 ft' means 'climb to about 100m'.[/quote]

How do you know that 1m in game is = to 1m IRL? Period? There is no such thing as "period", until it is provable, and measurable against something of know size in the real world. I for one, do NOT believe that one meter in game is EXACTLY equal to one meter in real life. I also am not sure that there is a way to prove or disprove it completely.

If you do, then you do it off the basis that you just accept what the BF2editor says about distance. If you do that and it is off scale, even a little bit. Then you open up what you are working on to errors, simply because you are plugging real world values and data into a system that is not to scale with the real world.

I also don't think anyone is questioning the unit of measure. It is understood that in game everything is measured in "meters". I'm not saying that ANYONE is wrong or misguided at all, I'm simply saying that maybe the rabbit hole is just a bit deeper than previously thought.

R

Jonny wrote:Are you proposing we import YOU into the editor and measure your height, as opposed to a model of something?

You can do that? Sure lets do it

Here are my measurements... I am 6 feet tall, or 1.8288 meters, or 72 inches or 1 fathom, or any unit of measure you would like me to convert to I weigh 238 pounds, or 107.954984 kilos, or 17 stones, or 107954.98406 grams. Which ever unit of measure you prefer

I workout a lot, and mostly do a lot of weight training. Which explains my heavy weight I'm pretty fast for my weight, but I don't think I can run as fast as the in game player models now

Jonny wrote: Or that we assume the units used are feet, and that the players are under 2 feet tall?

No, the unit used are meters, but I can convert to feet and inches for my own personal reference, since here in America we still use feet and inches.

Telling me that someone is 1.62 meters tall means nothing to me, but telling me that same person is 5 feet 3 inches does. That's why I converted to ft, and in.

Jonny wrote: Also, we will use SI units until you can name a non-arbitrary system as the sensible part of the western world uses this system and, importantly, it works.

What the game engine uses is just fine. But thanks for seeking my approval Unit of measure don't matter so long as we can convert them to any other unit that makes sense to the one converting it.

R

Yeah, remember that size and units are all relative.. it doesn't matter how big people are so long as they're correct in proportion to terrain, buildings etc

[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:Yeah, remember that size and units are all relative.. it doesn't matter how big people are so long as they're correct in proportion to terrain, buildings etc

I'm not so sure. I think it does matter how big or small the people, buildings, and terrain are. If it is a true one to one scale with the real world then you could plug in real world data and values, and forget about it. But perception counts for a lot, when we are striving for increased realism. If it doesn't "seem", "feel", or "perceived" to be realistic, then one can be fooled into believing it to be realistic.

Lets assume for just a moment that the scale of the game is larger than in real life. Lets also assume that a meter in game is equal to .5 meters in real life. If you used a real world speed measurement like 943 meters per seconds in game for a projectile, it would make the speed of the in game projectile UNREALISTIC in behavior. Because it would cover twice the distance in the same one second time period.
Remember that I said to assume that an in game meter is equal to .5 real world meters. So if you used 943 meters per second in game to "COPY" the real world projectile it would be unrealistic. It wouldn't "seem" realistic, it wouldn't "feel" realistic, and it's "perception" wouldn't be realistic.

Why, because it would be double the meters per second in game. In my example we SHOULD have plugged in half of the real world value (471.5) because our scale is off by half in game.

I only bring all this up for one reason, and that is... The DEVs and RCONs, and what have you are trying to copy the "REAL WORLD" and bring it into the game. To increase the realism, and complexity of PR. Thus bringing it to a much higher level, then vBF2 ever will be. I'm all for that. The more realism the better. So far so good

If the game is not one to one scale with the real world then we can't just simply copy and paste real world data, stats and values into the game. The real world data would have to be added, and THEN "adjusted" until the "FEEL", and "PERCEPTION" of realism is right. If the scale is one to one, then just simply copy and past real world stats, and data into the .con files, and all is square.

R

Rico11b wrote:What does that prove? It proves nothing. Without any REAL way to measure something in game against something in the real world, you are left with taking the BF2editor at face valve. Just taking what the game engine says, is nothing more than an assuming that it is right.. You know what they say about "assuming" right

R

There's an easy way to compare the unit system in-game and the unit system in the editor. Find the length of an object in the editor and compare it to the measured length in-game using the marker system. The problem with the markers is that they round to certain values. So in order to overcome this you can use a huge object. I picked the bridge section used on Operation Ghost Train. I measured it to be about 50.5 "units" long in the editor. The bridge on Operation Ghost Train has four sections bringing the total length to about 202 "units" in length. Now with markers I measured the bridge to be 201 m long. At that distance the length was increasing in 3 metre increments. In which case the marker measurements are likely to be +/- 1.5m which puts the value of 202 "units" squarely in the acceptable region. For all practical purposes, 1 "unit" in the editor equals 1 m in-game.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... 1/LEFT.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... /RIGHT.jpg
Length of the Bridge Section in the Editor

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd15 ... 112746.png
Length of the Bridge In-game

EDIT: That's a shite picture of the bridge which has been scaled. If you don't believe me, go measure it yourself.