Project Reality Forums

Me starting to think that you guys are not understanding what I'm getting at. Maybe I'm not asking the right way. I'm not talking about comparing the unit of measure in the game to the unit of measure in the editor. Those are the same, they are supposed to be. I'M talking about being able to compare the length or distance of something in game to something in the real world. And be able to determine if they are the same or different.

Let's pretend for just a moment that all in game player models are 2 meters tall. Now if I were to ZAP an in game player model and somehow transport him into the real world, would he be actually 2 meters tall? Would a real life 2 meter tall person be the same height as our in game model, or would it be something different. If it is something different then the game and real life are not on a even one to one scale. Meaning an in game meter would not be the same length as a real life meter is even though the game, and editor says it is. Thus we can't just copy and past real world specs, data, and values about weapons into the game, and expect it to be the same.

Meaning.... shish nevermind

They know what you think .. but 1 meter is DEFINED as 1 rl-meter .. so it is that way. Perhaps Soldier-Models are not in scale, perhaps maps are not in scale, perhaps weapons are not in scale, perhaps vehicles are not in scale .. but 1 meter is 1 meter ( period ).

Means whatever you do you have to take one thing as a defined value to be abled to scale all other things and the meter is this value.

OK!

I've come up with an idea. Maybe you guys already did this, maybe you did not. If you didn't, give it a try.

We know that there is ONE constant IN GAME that does exist in the real world. As far as I can tell they are exactly the same in length. That is TIME. Time seems to be the constant. One second in game time appears to be the same as one second in real world time. We can use the speed of things in game to determine that exact scale or length of something like measuring distance.

An example would be this.

Determine what the real world speed of a given projectile, like the TOW for an M14 bullet. Lets say for example that a TOW missile travels at 250 meters per second. Using our handy-dandy timer we load up single player and setup a target at 500 meters exactly. We then fire the TOW at the target. According to the settings for our TOW it should take EXACTLY 2 seconds for the TOW to reach 500 meters. (Longer distances would work better than shorter ones.)

If it does not arrive on target in EXACTLY 2 seconds then we know now that we have to increase or decrease the speed settings in game to get it to arrive on target in EXACTLY 2 seconds. Once that is done we can determine the difference (if any) between the in game settings and the real world speed listing to get our scale. So tweaking the files for the TOW in game we use the real world meters per second listing, and start there.

Let's say (in our example) that is takes 4 seconds for the TOW to reach the 500 meter target instead of 2 seconds. Now we know that we can't simply copy and past the real world figures because the scale doesn't allow for it. So we will have to input 500 meters per second to achieve the desired real world "appearance and behavior" of the TOW. We can do the same things to determine the pull of gravity in game. Take something up and drop it from a measured height, and see how long it takes the hit the ground. Scale is determine by using time over distance. Or is it distance over time hehe

This whole thing acts like a laser range finder. It shoots out a beam, and measures the time it take the light to reflect back to the optic sensor. In our case we would shoot and a TOW missile (or anything) and measure how many seconds it takes to strike a target at a known (in game) distance. What could be more simple than that? This could probably be done in the editor, but I don't know enough about the editor to try it I would recommend that it be done offline so as to eliminate as many time variables as possible. Also a super fast video card to reduce the chance of video lag.

Now does that example make more sense?



Note: Using bullets might work better since you don't have to account for acceleration. Then again the TOW in game might not have an acceleration value. Maybe the game engine makes it the same speed from the time it launches to the time it hits. In that case the TOW would work just fine.

ok so i havent been here rly, but why are we talking about unit of measurements? think about it, your saying that the models are correct but the tanks are not correct conpared to the ppl, so i think it is safe to assume that the meter in bf2 is equal to 1m in real life and that all the models are off.

zangoo wrote:ok so i havent been here rly, but why are we talking about unit of measurements? think about it, your saying that the models are correct but the tanks are not correct conpared to the ppl, so i think it is safe to assume that the meter in bf2 is equal to 1m in real life and that all the models are off.

Well the Abrams model isn't off in terms of length. I measured it to be ~9.82 m in the editor, with the gun forward and in real life it is ~9.83 m (Source: http://www.gdls.com/pdf/M1A2_flyer.pdf).

The LAV-25 model is pretty much to scale too. I measured it to be ~6.43 m in the editor and in real life it is 6.39 m (Source: General Dynamics Land Systems - Strength on your side).

I'm sure it'll be a similar case with the other vehicles...

I think the Challenger II has been scaled down IIRC.

Jay wrote:I think the Challenger II has been scaled down IIRC.

From the editor:
Length of the hull (including the fuel tanks): 8.75m
Length of the hull (excluding the fuel tanks): 8.13m
Length with gun forward (including the fuel tanks): 11.91m
Length with gun forward (excluding the fuel tanks): 11.29m

In real life:
Length (hull): 8.327m
Length (gun forward): 11.55m

huh! I could have sworn Rhino or one of the other DEVS said that the Challenger had to be scaled down, cause it dwarfs the other tanks, or something like that... But I guess not.

zangoo wrote:ok so i haven't been here rly, but why are we talking about unit of measurements? think about it, your saying that the models are correct but the tanks are not correct compared to the ppl, so i think it is safe to assume that the meter in bf2 is equal to 1m in real life and that all the models are off.

I'm not concerned about "units of measurements". The unit if measurement does not matter to me, because whatever unit they use, we can convert to whatever.

I'm also NOT saying that the models are correct, I think they are wrong too. The Tanks also are not correct, nor the ppl.

You just did it again... You "assumed" that what BF2 has provided as 1 meter is ACTUALLY one meter, when in fact you don't have any way to prove or disprove it.

That's why I mentioned the distance over time thing as a way to measure the scale for yourself. (Only problem is that we need a VERY precise timer. Maybe it could be recorded and then played back to determine the EXACT amount of time to within fractions of a second.)

I personally feel that the ENTIRE scale of the WHOLE game is off. NOTHING in game is the correct size it should be. If you place an attack marker at 200 meters, and the game says it 200 meters. It STILL does NOT look like a 200 meter target. THAT'S BECAUSE IT IS NOT Regardless of the "unit of measure" that the game says it is.

I personally think a meter in game is LONGER than a meter in real life. I'm trying to determine a sound method to prove or disprove it.

Look, if you code a M24 sniper rifle (in game) to fire a projectile at 792 meters per second, because that's what it is in real life... Only to find that a meter is longer in game than a real life meter, you will end up with a projectile speed that won't be realistic. It won't "feel", "act", or be "perceived" to behave in a realistic manner.

It will cause the projectile to be moving faster in game, because it will be covering a greater distance per second than what it should be. This might be happening right now in game, and no one can say for sure. We can't "assume" it to be right, we have to know for sure or else we can't input "REAL WORLD" data, value, and figures into the game and expect "REALISTIC" results.

Maybe this has something to do with the tracers not acting correctly, or maybe even addresses some issues that modders have been having in other areas of the game.

The true power of gravity within the game needs to be correct as well. The pull of gravity in game seem weaker than in real life. This could also be having some sort of negative effect on things in game as well. We can't assume, because that may end up being the one thing holding up the show

Sorry for being long-winded

R

Jonny wrote:Actually, when you define somethings speed in game it done by something that looks like, and we have to just assume its in meters. And, assuming it is, gravity is too strong in game for players and large objects and too weak for bullets.

Yes, I agree. It is expressed in meters, as in meters per second.

Lets suppose that you entered 792 in that object template field because you found that is the correct speed for that object in the "real world". Now lets suppose what the game considers a meter to be and what WE consider a meter to be are different lengths. Lets also suppose that what the GAME considers a meter to be is LONGER that what you, and I consider a meter to be. What will happen? I say the game will cause the object to move much faster than it should because it has to cover at greater distance in the same time frame.

I've always said that the CORE of the in game world needs to be set correctly because it is the foundation. The atmosphere, the environment, and gravity all need to be adjusted to be as close to reality as possible. BEFORE we can begin to introduce a TRUE realistic feel, and behavior into the game. Once that is done, many more things will become predictable, and less surprises will pop up.

We keep trying to up the realism without the environment being correct, we could end up with all sorts of weird stuff happening, like bullets floating backwards or flying tanks that aren't supposed to be flying Stuff that can never be fixed because the in game atmosphere, and environment needs adjusting to get it as close to our perception of reality as possible. The is a VIDEO game, so if things don't "look" right, they won't "seem" or "feel" right. The visual aspect is about all there is in a video game. I can't recall ever hearing of a blind person that playing FPS video games

R

Rico, bear in mind you are looking at a monitor/projector/whatever. Your screen is a different size to the next person's. Consequently the size of objects on other monitors look different despite the range being the same. Because of this, a man at 100m in-game won't be the same size as a man at 100m in real life unless a lot of factors are accounted for. A lot of these factors you can't account for (eg how far the player sits from his/her screen). Another related problem is that BF2 doesn't properly scale the FOV between different aspect ratios. For instance, if you measure the magnification of one weapon's scope in a particular aspect ratio it will be different to another aspect ratio.

There is nothing that can really be done about this. What can be done however, is getting the scale right between these objects.

[R-CON]nedlands1 wrote:Rico, bear in mind you are looking at a monitor/projector/whatever. Your screen is a different size to the next person's. Consequently the size of objects on other monitors look different despite the range being the same. Because of this, a man at 100m in-game won't be the same size as a man at 100m in real life unless a lot of factors are accounted for. A lot of these factors you can't account for (eg how far the player sits from his/her screen). Another related problem is that BF2 doesn't properly scale the FOV between different aspect ratios. For instance, if you measure the magnification of one weapon's scope in a particular aspect ratio it will be different to another aspect ratio.

There is nothing that can really be done about this. What can be done however, is getting the scale right between these objects.

lol, yes I have considered all that.

R

Rico11b wrote:lol, yes I have considered all that.

R

So your question, pertaining to real life measurements of length being consistent with in-game values, is answered, yes?

[R-CON]nedlands1 wrote:So your question, pertaining to real life measurements of length being consistent with in-game values, is answered, yes?

lol.

No it is not

R

Rico11b wrote:lol.

No it is not

R

*cry*

[R-CON]nedlands1 wrote:*cry*

LOL!
Your heart felt empathy moves me



In all seriousness though, you guys need to look into this. Since you guys are working so hard on ballistics and stuff, this would be useful info to know for certain. You guys certainly seem to know more about the BF2 editor than I do. I'm certain you will find differences concerning in game meters, and real world meters. When you do it will matter.
From there you will be able to determine the scale, and thus adjust all the speed variables for different projectiles and missiles/rockets to make them feel, and behave in a much more realistic manner. Who knows you might even solve the issue you are having with tracers and what not. Can't hurt to at least look into it.

Hey we need these ballistics more than we need flippin tracers. Hows about for this release we just scrap them and get the stuff in the game?