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Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-12 21:30
by Rudd
K/D isn't the only stat to look at lads, sometimes its the boys with scopes keeping the enemy's head down that lets the irons/reflex user get up close and take the enemy out

Having a mix is always preferable because of this

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-13 01:40
by Murphy
Mellanbror wrote:Reading many posts I get the feeling that you do not teamwork much.
You couldn't be more off-base with that comment, come meet me in-game and it will take very little time to realize that.

I must admit personal preference will come down to which system you have more time with, and admittedly a mix is always the best option (heavier on either based on the map and the SLs planned approach). But just because we believe we are better with whichever optics doesn't make anyone more right then the other as these arguments (mine included) are very situational.

I'm also noticing quite a few CATA trained players taking the same side of the debate as we have had "IRONSIGHTS ONLY" burned into our brains by some chipper Russian chap. :lol:
Rudd wrote:K/D isn't the only stat to look at lads...
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-13 19:41
by Mellanbror
Not really. I had a civvy kit and was spotting for a PKM - His ironsights meant I had to tell him where to shoot, and even then when the shots landed they were more than a man sized target apart. Can't remember the range, but it was borderline futile to bother.
Three things about this comment.

1. PKM doesn't have the option of ACOG. This in relation to disussion at hand.
2. PKM ironsights are worse than that of the minimi, that has the option af ACOG.
3. If shots landed more then a man sized target apart, it would be the same with any LMG
using scope or as the PKM has, pure zoom.
There is no lack of accuracy between scoped and unscoped. Not that I've noticed
anyways. That makes your point mute.

In this thread I have tried to say two things.

1. Most players are better of using a weapon that has a zoom-scope. Ranges fought in PR
warrant it, in my opinion. If you are sure that you outperform yourself using reflex/iron,
by all means continue. You read your own gamingskills better then I do, most likely.
2. Empirical knowledge from playing this game, to much really, has given me the
insight that using the minimi without scope in most situations/maps is a winning
concept, for the squad as a whole. If you yourself however, experience that you hand
a better result to your squad using minimi with ACOG, by all means continue.
But, I do believe that if you start using the minimi as I'm promoting it, you will improve
squad-effectiveness. Train and get a good rutine down =)

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-13 21:32
by Brainlaag
Murphy wrote:You couldn't be more off-base with that comment, come meet me in-game and it will take very little time to realize that.

I must admit personal preference will come down to which system you have more time with, and admittedly a mix is always the best option (heavier on either based on the map and the SLs planned approach). But just because we believe we are better with whichever optics doesn't make anyone more right then the other as these arguments (mine included) are very situational.

I'm also noticing quite a few CATA trained players taking the same side of the debate as we have had "IRONSIGHTS ONLY" burned into our brains by some chipper Russian chap. :lol:



BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amen to that.

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-14 15:45
by Buren06
I don't personally believe there is any "super soldier" technique to allow you to become godly in every environment. If you have an ACOG, you can only be so effective at close range, no matter how good you think you are. Period. Same goes for reflex and long range.

I personally prefer reflex, only because increased proficiency in close quarters will usually save my life, where extra strength over long range will generally just rack up a couple more kills than usual.

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-15 14:53
by PFunk
Mellanbror wrote:T
1. Most players are better of using a weapon that has a zoom-scope.
Doesn't necessarily mean that they're not using it as a crutch. I may be better on a bicycle with training wheels but doesn't mean I can't be better without them. Not to say that scopes equal a crutch, just that they're using them to compensate for a lack of skill without one or focusing on a mentality which is overly zoom obcessed and far too negligent of more significant factors.

What do I mean by this last bit? Simple. When I'm leading a squad most guys pick scopes. Yep, they can sure hit more... when they see the target. The problem I find is that scopes give people too much focus on simply seeing something and killing it. If I tell them to shoot at the attack marker they just stand there dumb founded, they don't know what to do. "Shoot at what?" they say.

I believe that most PR players, meaning the guys who suck, are just useless without seeing the enemy, even if I'm giving them orders or a marker or whatever. They're so conservative with their bullets. They only shoot what they can see and what they can understand as being relevant to a kill. They don't understand the deeper situation. Now thats fine, a squaddie doesn't need to understand, thats my job when I'm SL, but when I'm giving them the order that makes them a part of my broader plan... well they break down. They fail to be useful because they are ever searching for that kill.

Some players are obviously smarter than that, not useless, but still suffer from this. They're always getting themselves killed trying to get an aimed shot off, drifting away from my position trying to get a better angle and when I need them to go in through the front door... they're a block and a half away and Im dead or they still don't shoot cause they haven't practiced CQB cause they think all good combat happens at 100m+.

This is not a hard and fast rule, but it is the empirical evidence I have collected over years of playing PR. The simple fact is that sit them in a bunker with a scope and they rock... kinda. Try and fight dynamically and a lot of these scope wielding amateurs just fail to recognize the very purpose of the bullets they aren't firing fast enough for my taste.

Volume of fire to cover a move to a closer position from which to annihilate enemies in CQB is how most PR firefights end (when the squads aren't being idiotic and standing in the open). I believe that most scope worshipers are suffering from a focus on the wrong concepts and thats why I think scopes are something that should be second to irons/optics when it comes to learning to be a PR grunt.

If you learn on an optic you learn to fight it nitty gritty. If you can't kill them up close, who cares if you can do it at max range? Besides, the SAW is there to do the majority of the ranged killing so you don't need that many scopes.

Each has its purpose, its strengths, and its weaknesses. I believe the core of good PR infantry combat is in closing in and wiping them up, preferably from behind. Shooting over great distances only serves to stave them off or prep them for their doom and, in the majority of cases, make people into targets in indecisive exchanges of fire. I'm not disavowing scopes, I often use them. But I believe that the average PR players thinks about their weapon and their utility as riflemen incorrectly and instead tries to just snipe the enemy and in so doing loses focus and gets tunnel vision.

How many times have my pubbie squads died cause when when I say "Contacts, front, open fire." they just don't fire fast enough, they may not see them clearly, they go for that jugular shot. JUST SHOOT THE DAMNED GUN and I wouldnt care what you used. By and large though, I think the scope wielders suffer cause they just think of their guns as the poor cousin to the Sniper kit they were too slow to grab and the Marksman kit their SL wouldn't let them draw.

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-15 17:16
by KiloJules
PFunk wrote:...
Wonderful read! Too busy with other stuff right now to comment more deeply but yeah...thanks for those thoughts PFunk!

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-15 20:28
by Bringerof_D
i mostly take scope, depending on map i will go red dot though. it's entirely situational. you got more hits also because those targets were probably closer to you. whereas when playing with a scope to tend to engage farther targets. more often then close ones, problem with that is the deviation being the same thus the same amount of settle will allow you to mostly hit closer targets while mostly missing farther targets.

i generally prefer red dot on Korengal on US team, and i love being US team on that simply because of the difficulty. every inch gained is a fight.

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-15 21:33
by Nebsif
What a blasphemous newbie-filled thread!

AK style ironsights! Highest FOV with the accuracy of a M16Aw/e with a NASA telescope on it.
When I just started playing I only played blufor for the leet scopes, too, so i'll try my best to forgive the unfaithful newbies here.

Most practical firefights (not imaginary, with suppressed people shitting their pants and a leet-fireteam that moves in to end their misery etc) are decided in CQB since its best way to ensure your prey doesnt get revived. More often than not, at least vs. an orginized squad, trying to take advantage of ur scoped 5.XYmm rifle will only alert the enemy.
So by all means, keep using scopes, makes my life easier and my e-peen much larger!

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-15 22:44
by Cassius
On maps with a lot of close quarters, iron sights or reflex are better, yes. Even moar better the shotgun :0

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-19 23:30
by Mikemonster
Shotgun is AIDS. I had to say it.

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-20 01:34
by Brainlaag
Mikemonster wrote:Shotgun is AIDS. I had to say it.
Shotgun is rape, nothing is more awesome to use.

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-21 00:10
by =LK= A.H.
What's with all these ****-waving threads as of late? It's only contingently true that a scoped gun is worse in close quarters, etc. It depends on the situation a lot.

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-21 19:46
by Murphy
Would you rather be less effective in long range fights having to seek cover and maneuver around, or would you rather be less effective in close range fights, giving the option to run or die in most situations?

Re: Reflex sights better???

Posted: 2012-02-21 19:54
by Buren06
Murphy wrote:Would you rather be less effective in long range fights having to seek cover and maneuver around, or would you rather be less effective in close range fights, giving the option to run or die in most situations?
I agree with this. Being less effective at long range is an inconvenience. Being less effective at close range is a death sentence.