Project Reality Forums

nAyo wrote:You're saying that a CAS chopper can be OP if a good crew is manning it. Well what's the purpose of that, anything would be considered as OP if properly manned then, a tank is also overpowered if a very experienced and good crew is operating it?

Good pilots can do well with a chopper, people lacking experience can be killed easy. Isn't that the purpose of the game itself, having more experienced people for all kind of vehicle?

nAyo has it spot on here

Remove the dive, problems solved.

I don't see anything OP in diving, you just need 2 AAs close to each other (but not too close) of any kind, and enemy chopper is going to die if he will dive on you. I know it's terribly unrealistic to dive, but you can't attack your target from 3 km which is unrealistic too. If diving is going to get removed, then CAS helicopters should be able to see lock boxes and lock onto them from further away.

Stemplus wrote:I don't see anything OP in diving, you just need 2 AAs close to each other (but not too close) of any kind, and enemy chopper is going to die if he will dive on you. I know it's terribly unrealistic to dive, but you can't attack your target from 3 km which is unrealistic too. If diving is going to get removed, then CAS helicopters should be able to see lock boxes and lock onto them from further away.

I agree !

I don't see anything OP in diving, you just need 2 AAs close to each other (but not too close) of any kind, and enemy chopper is going to die if he will dive on you. I know it's terribly unrealistic to dive, but you can't attack your target from 3 km which is unrealistic too. If diving is going to get removed, then CAS helicopters should be able to see lock boxes and lock onto them from further away.

then AA should be able to lock you on from the same distance you see that lockbox.

ExeTick wrote:then AA should be able to lock you on from the same distance you see that lockbox.

True, but then, it should only apply to certain kinds of AAs, because on muttrah or jabal, or any maps without heavy attack choppers normal choppers would be completely raped.

easier to make it harder to dive with heavy attack choppers then

To be fair if CAS helis had an altitude that was below the view distance it might mean they don't have free roam over the map like they do currently.

They could fly 'behind enemy lines' but it would be a bit risky, as they'd have to fly past/over any potential AA and then be a bit trapped between this and an enemy helo if it turned up. As well as knowing that anyone on the ground could have a pot shot at them from a hidden (old) FOB. And obviously they'd have to return as well.

It's my understanding from the DCS: Black Shark forums that heli on heli combat is generally be avoided by both sides unless one has the clear advantage (and even then would be wary about being lured over an AA trap). They certainly wouldn't go hunting for each other like in PR, to become king of the battlefield for 20mins. The stingers that were trialled were to protect from marauding enemy jets, if I understand correctly - defensive armament. Although it's hard to find sources for or against.

Choppers are flying behind enemy lines a lot of times, you just probably don't see it because when doing that they fly really far away and move quickly so it can seem like they dive, especially on maps like Iron Eagle and Black Gold, you can't even hear them when they are far enough.


And yes, AA missiles on choppers are for defence, and they are used offensively in PR, yet they are only used in the first 10 seconds of the dogfights, and then it turns into a fight of hydras, hellfires and cannon.



So back to topic, in my opinion making it very hard (but not impossible) to dive and increasing the range of hellfires just by a tiny tiny bit so they can shoot a bit over the view distance would be perfect, because they would have to stay still otherwise they would just fly into the AA range like it is happening now, in other words they would have to hover, making them an extremely easy target to APCs, tanks, 50.cal, TOWs, HATs, other AAs, pretty much everything. Ofc, they could also do a fly-by attack, but that would mean they would fly straight into the AA.

increasing the range of hellfires means every map need longer view distance.

I think hellfires have unlimited range in PR so all that have to be changed is viewdistance.

in my opinion making it very hard (but not impossible) to dive and increasing the range of hellfires just by a tiny tiny bit so they can shoot a bit over the view distance would be perfect, because they would have to stay still otherwise they would just fly into the AA range like it is happening now

looks like you want to make AA useless against all cas.
If cas can shoot outside viewrange they can most likely fly away outside viewdistance.

no, you don't need to increase the view distance, just let the chopper lock i.e. 100 meters behind the view distance, but to make it useful, the chopper would have to hover etc etc. And as I said before, AA vehicles would have the same lock on range as the hellfires (extra 100m). Remember, it would only make sense if choppers couldn't dive, so if the chopper would shoot outside of VD it would be an easy target for other assets.



PS, I remember a 10 pages topic about AAs being OP...

Professorson wrote:i'd love to see all the people who call helis OP use it and rack up the kills something is only OP if any random can use it and own with it

I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this

I just think it's gotten to the point where CAS choppers dont act as the sum of a whole team, but rather as individualists, which is unlike any other asset. That's kind like my thesis actually. Whoops, I dont study english, probably should have included that at the start of my OP

40mmrain wrote:I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this

I just think it's gotten to the point where CAS choppers dont act as the sum of a whole team, but rather as individualists, which is unlike any other asset. That's kind like my thesis actually. Whoops, I dont study english, probably should have included that at the start of my OP

You can say the same about tanks, APCs, AAVs and even infantry. What about tanks up in A1 on Kashan just sitting there and "flanking" ? Hows that different from a helicopter flying around above 1,300 ?

So the consensus that you all have arrived at, from my perspective:

-The ability of helicopters to dive on targets (and survive) should be reduced in some way, probably with a tweak to physics.
-Attack helos are not keen on flying low to engage targets due not only to AA dangers, but to surface-to-surface weapons, thus relying on diving tactics, or engaging targets known to not have AA cover.
-One of the main "working" counters to diving helicopters is other helicopters, thanks to their carried air-to-air missiles. Once these are gone, opponent is perceived as having air superiority (even though well-used AA will make clear otherwise).

Less consensus:
-Attack Helicopters are strong, but their thin skin helps level the playing field. (Except for CAS Hueys, which, by the way, we're fixing.)

This sound about right?

-The ability of helicopters to dive on targets (and survive) should be reduced in some way, probably with a tweak to physics.

should be like cobra and tiger heavy attack helicopters. its hard to get out from a dive in those.

Hard to get out of a dive with cobra? Exe, what have you been smoking, its the easiest attack chopper to dive in PR. Just flip it to the side with A-D keys, and then roll the heli sideways untill its horizontal you wont loose much alt and you'll be out of the dive in 5 seconds. Now, Jafar: You're correct, plus the fact that right now diving is the only way to kill an AA. Without diving attack choppers would turn useless in current PR. The counter for it on maps like kashan is to hit the target from above the clouds and from very far away. The problem is that on maps with short VD doing that kind of thing or doing a fly-by attack would be retarded, since AA can kill you from twice as far as you can hit him (VD - 650m, AA range - 1300m). That is why I suggested to increase the HF range so it can shoot 100-200m behind the VD. Ofc it would have to hover to make it any usefull, bla bla bla, etc etc.

What i have a problem with is the odd level design, that is putting two CAS chopper into opposition in the first place. There should not be a scenario where one CAS chopper has to defeat opposing CAS chopper to win air superiority. Think again about what CAS stands for.

I think ther eshould be only two scenarios including CAS choppers. Granted air superiority, like in Muttrah, where Opfor is not operating any CAS assets whatsoever. In these scenarios The CAS on one side is opposed only by ground forces of the other side, and map can be tweaked with that in mind to keep it balanced

The other scenario is both teams having CAS choppers as well as fighter jets. This way the air superiority would be fought over by fighter jets, not CAS assets, and more importantly these CAS helicopters would have their own predator, unlike they have atm.

Stemplus wrote:HNow, Jafar: You're correct, plus the fact that right now diving is the only way to kill an AA. Without diving attack choppers would turn useless in current PR. The counter for it on maps like kashan is to hit the target from above the clouds and from very far away. The problem is that on maps with short VD doing that kind of thing or doing a fly-by attack would be retarded, since AA can kill you from twice as far as you can hit him (VD - 650m, AA range - 1300m). That is why I suggested to increase the HF range so it can shoot 100-200m behind the VD. Ofc it would have to hover to make it any usefull, bla bla bla, etc etc.

Why should aircraft be trying to kill Anti-Aircraft again? You dont see tanks and IFv hunting for HATs and TOWs, they are scared of them as they should be. Why are not CAS choppers scared of AA in the same way, why they dont let the rest of the team kill it for them?
Somebody brought up rock-paper-scissor in this thread, why it does not work here the same as on teh rest of the battlefield?

SuperHornet wrote:
You can say the same about tanks, APCs, AAVs and even infantry. What about tanks up in A1 on Kashan just sitting there and "flanking" ? Hows that different from a helicopter flying around above 1,300 ?

indeed and theyre mostly unsuccessful, correct?

the useful armour is on flags, and right next to the inf

40mmrain wrote:I'm a pro pilot and gunner anyone can verify this

I just think it's gotten to the point where CAS choppers dont act as the sum of a whole team, but rather as individualists, which is unlike any other asset. That's kind like my thesis actually. Whoops, I dont study english, probably should have included that at the start of my OP

How the hell is it the assets fault? Its the fucking idiots crewing them that are the problem. I feel sad for the regular pubbies who have never played in an organized match to see how air and ground assets actually work together as a team.

Id rather have a less skilled crew supporting the team than a better crew hunting for enemy cas and doing their own thing. Theres no point to change something that has its roots in player behavior and/or competency.

Its the internet and everyone has an opinion, but luckily I can choose who I play with...