Project Reality Forums

Posted: **2013-03-25 22:24**

I much prefer a server that enforces the chain of command. It brings the level of gameplay up and can increase the fun. You might think a CO is no good, but how would you know if you don't follow their orders? You don't know what they're game plan is, all you know is that you are an obstacle and preventing somebody from doing their job and having a good time.

I've CO'd plenty and have had a number of COs that made the game great. Personally, I liked it better before mumble 1.0 when the CO was necessary to establish communications between the squads. I enjoyed arranging transport and supplies for various squads, as well as coordinating squads to attack/defend objectives.

It's too bad a CO can't kick an SL from his post for not following orders, similar to how an SL can kick an SM for same.

The CO position in vBF2 and PR is part of what set this game apart from every other game out there. Still is. Perhaps PR 1.0 has something in store for the CO. Let's hope so.

Posted: **2013-03-25 22:35**

ShaunOTEast wrote:I tried CO a few times, even as a slightly less experienced CO I received generally positive response and cooperation from SLs. Though we lost most of the time cos I usually joined mid game. Though sometimes you get squads running off to hell knows where or squads staying on an uncappable flag, including one rude SL telling me STFU :<
But I think I will keep trying to be CO, improve teamwork and cohesion between squads and such.

Sounds great your stepping up ShaunOTEast, regardless of mid-game-entries and eventual defeats. Many tourney COs started out just like you. Also, nice you received a positive response from the teams. Might be an indicator of your future victories?

Old but useful tip: post AARs, so people begin to notice you, commenting on your reports, your skills, your decisions and so forth. Started out like that my self, back in 2006.

In regard to the rude squad leaders, yes, they can be a challenge to deal with, especially when your new in commanding PR teams, or have been away for a while. They often have their own idea of how to play the game on the team sized level. As CO you mostly have two options:

1) to take advantage of what they are doing, or
2) simply ignore them and carry on with your own idea.

In the area of divergence of battle-focused interest, the PR community has not advanced it self yet, sadly. Not sure my self where any solution is hidden, but you can always report to an admin, should you feel it to be necessary.

The fundamental problem with rude squad leaders and sometimes individual players too, is that Project Reality was designed to be as free a game as possible, which is of course in so many ways very positive, however, its downside has been a game lacking a focus on a decision-level culture; being either a squad-level or commander-level-culture. Consequently, the vast majority of PR players are not used to play under a commander player.
And as result, any player stepping up to the CO role, has always exposed him or her self to rude behaviour. Hope it wont stop you though, from stepping up, its an unsolved cultural community problem; PR needs players like you.

Posted: **2013-03-25 22:48**

A.Wickens wrote: For me, I'm pretty jaded as SL, I hate the E-Sports type tourney play because it become cheap and simpl uh about points and winning by any means etc, I want an experience. I want a CO to give me an objective, whatever it is, and I want to focus my efforts on delivering that objective regardless. I don't want to meta game it because I know the quickest way to 'kill that map', I want to play, be part of a team and do my bit.

good post, especially this part.

This is why I would like the scoreboard being removed. CHecking the scoreboard after every mortar round, or after youve hit an enemy attack helo or whatever is too meta, it's not FUN

Posted: **2013-03-25 22:56**

I wished to see the CO role revived too. But the reality is (no pun intended) the community does not want it. Unless the game mechanics force it or servers actively enforce it. Its just not happening.

It will require the developer team to take a stand; CO-focus, or the good old Free Game focus, with the latter leaving it up to the community to fight it out, where the CO players has always been a minority in the fight. And treated as such too.

Years ago I always heard at game start

"who is the commander?"

Never experienced rounds like that my self. And i played the game since 2005/2006.

That is because we had players who were committed to team work. Most of those players are gone for good. And it's not like game changes have made it any easier for those types of players.

Well, the game has never made it easy for the CO player, and probably wont do so in the new PR too. I hope it will, but honestly don't expect it.

I saw this lolololol attitude coming a long time ago. They see CO influenced gameplay as milisim or anal. It's too late to turn it back unless the game mechanics were changed or the community decides to play PR differently. Not happening. You must have missed the funeral, the music was nice.

I hope it was. As you know I don't agree with the view of the death of the CO role since I perceive it as still unborn. However, I do agree that a vast part of the community see the CO game as either too military simulated or unnecessary disciplined. I partly see it like that too, however, the reason is that the unique PR CO style has not yet been created, due to the lack of a CO accepted culture, thus most CO players are forced (patternwise) to use the military simulated and anal styled game play.

Just like the ban culture in the forums; this culture is also a copy pasted culture from the rest of the internet; the game and its community has yet not created its own conflict solving forum culture.

Posted: **2013-03-26 03:40**

I like commanding sometimes, but most of the times the team loses, because the Armor Squad didn't want to cover the guys moving to UN Outpost on Marlin, CrazyHotMilf will remember it.

I always try getting the UAV up ASAP, then when the Area Attack is loaded, I just spam it on the chat and Mumble, but I must get my English better, sometimes I just get stuck while speaking.

Posted: **2013-03-26 04:34**

A.Wickens wrote:Frankly some of the opinions expressed here are the start and finish of why the Commander role is often viewed as "irrelevant" in some corners. Amazingly if you believe the CO is only there to get people to quiet down and politely suggest stuff he becomes ineffective. Of course he does, because you are ignoring COC once it climbs above squad level.

Is a Squad Leader there to 'suggest' what his squad might like to do? No he isn't. Same goes for CO. Whilst the CO is not there to pick your load out and micro manage he can and in some cases should be giving you a task as SL and squad and expecting you to sort your kit accordingly.

I would much rather follow a new CO and help him learn and develop his game at the strategic level then half *** it with a bunch of very competent SL's just because I know it will mean we win that round by ignoring proper COC.

I would rather lose with cohesion and a singular purpose and see a potential CO progress through the undoubtedly difficult learning curve (which will benefit the game later by providing another skilled CO) then simply win another game (yawn). Its about quality.

The CO is there to unify the efforts of the team in a singular purpose, he provides the battle plan. For me, I'm pretty jaded as SL, I hate the E-Sports type tourney play because it become cheap and simpl uh about points and winning by any means etc, I want an experience. I want a CO to give me an objective, whatever it is, and I want to focus my efforts on delivering that objective regardless. I don't want to meta game it because I know the quickest way to 'kill that map', I want to play, be part of a team and do my bit.

CO is relevant, he's not if you ignore him and do your own thing. CO is good for the game and good for the experience. SL's need to check themselves because if you break COC, well you're setting an example for your SM's.

Well said Andy.

Correctly using the commander raises PR way above other games. There just isn't anything like it out there.

Posted: **2013-03-26 08:36**

saXoni wrote:As soon as you get in the UAV it feels like you're playing a strategy game, and I love that.

Looks like some cod mission where you tell your guys where to go... Epic. Only problem is that there is a bug any sometimes people dont go where you tell them to go...

Posted: **2013-03-26 10:52**

[R-DEV]AFsoccer wrote:Well said Andy.

Correctly using the commander raises PR way above other games. There just isn't anything like it out there.

Yes well said. it's why i love to be the CO : for the teamplay, cordination, and ambiance. This how PR meant to be played.

Just a problem : The Area Attack. Only CO should have ability to ask for it and not sharing this one with SL. Everytime i say Area Attack is Ready nobody respond (, from my experience since 2010, about 25% of SL has respond ot it). and if one squad leader set a bad target, you could be dismissed of your chair because ALMOST EVERY PLAYERS think the CO is the only one who can decide where and when there will be an Area Attack (it happened to me once...). The current system is not effective (how many rounds have been lost because a lock situation has been solved by a good Jdam like IRL ?) and worst : it is confusing !

Don't forget : the CO has always the best view of the battlefield.

Posted: **2013-03-26 12:57**

Posted: **2013-03-26 13:02**

Michael_Denmark;1878372 Never experienced rounds like that my self. And i played the game since 2005/2006. [/QUOTE wrote:
hey mike, so are you playing again these days?
Haven't seen you ingame long time, just curious because I started playing again a while ago.

on the CO role:

I don't think that players don't respect the CO position out of choice. They just don't see any actual advantage in having a CO and following his orders.

With mumble SLs can communicate easily with all SLs at all times.
They can check the map and see what the CO sees. (except UAV obviously)
So the only thing that a CO could offer is this:
a) a strategy
b) area attack

Having a strategy in place for a specific map is possible but it is extremely difficult to communicate that plan during the 1:30 minutes pre-spawn time. Additionally you have to wait what kind of squads and how many squads you will have.
Then you have to find out the hard way who wants to play ball with you and who has its own strategy.

So all in all experienced SLs do not see an advantage in having a CO I think and it is also difficult for me to see at the moment.
Depending on the quality of the Sls there is more or less need for a CO I think.

tl;dr
Good SLs "don't need" a CO. (map awareness + team need awareness)
Bad SLs need one but won't listen to him anyway in many cases. (wrongful, no map awareness + lack of interest in team effort but own squads mission)

Posted: **2013-03-26 13:14**

SShadowFox wrote:I like commanding sometimes, but most of the times the team loses, because the Armor Squad didn't want to cover the guys moving to UN Outpost on Marlin.

Armor in PR is what I would call a glass cannon even though its named "Armor", which means the armor needs more protection from the infantry than the infantry needs cover from armor. Therefore you can easily be stuck with armor squads refusing to put themselves at risk if there isn't enough infantry to cover them. The other possibility is that the armor will be destroyed rather quickly. First Organize 1 or even 2 squads to defend the armor...then the armor can better help defend the infantry from enemy vehicles AR's emplacements and snipers.... not from HAT's though.

Phoenixo_Idaho wrote:Just a problem : The Area Attack. Only CO should have ability to ask for it and not sharing this one with SL. Everytime i say Area Attack is Ready nobody respond (, from my experience since 2010, about 25% of SL has respond ot it).

The reason many squad leaders will hesitate to ask for area attack is that there enemy is not stationary enough to "waste" a static strike on, or they simple can't get a line of sight to use binoculars, or even worse the squad leader is dead or don't have an officer/sniper kit.

Phoenixo_Idaho wrote: if one squad leader set a bad target, you could be dismissed of your chair because ALMOST EVERY PLAYERS think the CO is the only one who can decide where and when there will be an Area Attack (it happened to me once...). The current system is not effective (how many rounds have been lost because a lock situation has been solved by a good Jdam like IRL ?) and worst : it is confusing !

Not sure if I understand you here, but I don't see how you could be "dismissed" because of a SL makes a bad target... you should not accept a bad target in the first place. I think the current system works okay, going back to Vanilla where the commander can order his own strikes removes the importance of teamwork which PR is famous for. Nothing major can be done solo in PR.

Phoenixo_Idaho wrote: Don't forget : the CO has always the best view of the battlefield.

without your ears on the battelfield you only see 50% of the picture and it takes you ages to move a UAV so a well placed Squad-leader can actually have just as good overview as the Commander. The best way is to get intel from multiple Squad-leaders while using the UAV. The UAV alone often gives the commander a false sense of security since enemy's can hide in buildings, and there can be a rain of bullets coming from an unknown direction.

Posted: **2013-03-26 14:42**

Gracler wrote: The reason many squad leaders will hesitate to ask for area attack is that there enemy is not stationary enough to "waste" a static strike on, or they simple can't get a line of sight to use binoculars, or even worse the squad leader is dead or don't have an officer/sniper kit.

I was speaking about situations where an area attack would provide advantage or victory. Like endless assault of cache like i saw yesterday on a Gaza Beach session (100 men for a cach. Crazy !). Otherwise, Area A is uncecessary : PR it's Advance and Secure, not Blow Everything Up.

Gracler wrote: Not sure if I understand you here, but I don't see how you could be "dismissed" because of a SL makes a bad target... you should not accept a bad target in the first place. I think the current system works okay, going back to Vanilla where the commander can order his own strikes removes the importance of teamwork which PR is famous for. Nothing major can be done solo in PR.

To begin with, it's unecessary to be a commander if you want to be a lonewolf. Join a bad squad is far enough to request a sniper kit and make his little life. So if you command it's because you want to help, to coordonate etc. beside a commander is nothing without others squad leader : they are his arms and his advisors in addition to being his extra eyes and brains.
So if you deal with bad Squad leaders, you can have false informations that makes you take poor decisions.

About to be dismissed, let me tell a story :

Once, i played Burning Sand as a commander. The round was ok. I was giving all informations that i could found to troops. The SL were doing their job correctly, they where sharing informations to each other when suddenly their stopped blocked against a good ambush. Too bad for me, i lost the UAV at that time and everybody was awared of it. The battle raged for 20 minutes but without any sucess for us : the ennemy seemed very weel established in buildings. Suddenly, the Area Attack became operational.
here's how the following took place :

ME : AREA ATTACK READY. I'm WAITING for your targets guys
SLs : ... [sound of silence]...

(10 minutes after - my team was making a breach, finally)

ME : area attack ready... just saying...

A target then apparead on the map, not too far from my troops.

ME : Are you sure for the targets. Is it confirmed
One SL : Yes commander, shoot shoot !

I confirm the target. Artillery fall just after. is this then bad news appeared on the chat : "OMG bad Area Attack" Etc. i've even been insulted by one guy from the clan BIA "you Moron". 2 minutes later i've been dismissed by a vote after explaining to that poor gentlemen that i don't accepte to be insulted.

2 minutes later, my team won the round.

I was disgusted i had just passed 1h to help everybody, when one SL took his binoculars for giving bad info to me, what condamned me to be suspended form duty, insulted, even if my team was winning the round. But it is not the commander who choose targets. For that, you must blindy trust SLs.

Can you see the limit of the current system ?

If i would have been the only one to launch the Area Attack. I would wait for the next UAV to see clearly the situation before taking a decision.

Gracler wrote: without your ears on the battelfield you only see 50% of the picture and it takes you ages to move a UAV so a well placed Squad-leader can actually have just as good overview as the Commander. The best way is to get intel from multiple Squad-leaders while using the UAV. The UAV alone often gives the commander a false sense of security since enemy's can hide in buildings, and there can be a rain of bullets coming from an unknown direction.

Wrong. You see, and you hear, almost 85% of the picture. How many time did i save squads from ambush, landmines etc with the help of the UAV ? The big deal is too know where you've to put your UAV.

And also, don't forget that commanders are linked to SL via mumble. what a SL says, the commander holds in his mind

Posted: **2013-03-26 16:38**

But to be fair it is not a good sign if you have to "force" an Area attack on your own SLs.
You should call the shots and should tell the SLs where to request it, not the other way around... You degraded yourself there but it is common because there is no real power for the CO.
But usually it never ends very well if COs have to repeatedly ask for the Area attack to be dropped "somewhere".
It is common now however.

Thus it all depends on perception of the CO right there. If you have a name that rings out it is a whole lot different I think.

Maybe there needs to be somekind of Clan or Squad of a Clan who dedicate to being CO and wear a tag or something.

The CO has only so much power as you can make the SLs believe you are a powerful asset as a CO to the team.
In the real military this comes with the rank I guess...

Posted: **2013-03-26 18:00**

HunterMed wrote: But usually it never ends very well if COs have to repeatedly ask for the Area attack to be dropped "somewhere".
It is common now however.

It's why when area attack becomes available, i tell it always twice. I never spam Sl with. But, furtunatly, there's only few situations where an Area Attack is vital

.

Posted: **2013-03-27 01:36**

Phoenixo_Idaho wrote:
Once, i played Burning Sand as a commander. The round was ok. I was giving all informations that i could found to troops. The SL were doing their job correctly, they where sharing informations to each other when suddenly their stopped blocked against a good ambush. Too bad for me, i lost the UAV at that time and everybody was awared of it. The battle raged for 20 minutes but without any sucess for us : the ennemy seemed very weel established in buildings. Suddenly, the Area Attack became operational.
here's how the following took place :

ME : AREA ATTACK READY. I'm WAITING for your targets guys
SLs : ... [sound of silence]...

(10 minutes after - my team was making a breach, finally)

ME : area attack ready... just saying...

A target then apparead on the map, not too far from my troops.

ME : Are you sure for the targets. Is it confirmed
One SL : Yes commander, shoot shoot !

I confirm the target. Artillery fall just after. is this then bad news appeared on the chat : "OMG bad Area Attack" Etc. i've even been insulted by one guy from the clan BIA "you Moron". 2 minutes later i've been dismissed by a vote after explaining to that poor gentlemen that i don't accepte to be insulted.

2 minutes later, my team won the round.

I was disgusted i had just passed 1h to help everybody, when one SL took his binoculars for giving bad info to me, what condamned me to be suspended form duty, insulted, even if my team was winning the round. But it is not the commander who choose targets. For that, you must blindy trust SLs.

That is a perfect example of what it means to be a leader. Just because you are a leader and you think you are trying to do the best for your team, 1 bad decision from one of your officers would end your career as a commander.
Leader role doesn't make you god-like. It makes you a decision maker and the end-station for complaints.

In your case yes your officer was at fault for asking for the area attack, but your the commander and you pressed the red button so it is your responsibility. Later you can complaint about your officer, but the crowd will take it all out on you. Just watch the news... this type of thing happens every day that a bad adviser gets his employer fired.

What I would have done is figure out by moving as close on foot or helicopter where I want the area attack and then ask the nearest Officer to order it so I can accept it.
Also a little hint that is perhaps not intended by the developers but you can Pre-order an attack on a key area and it will stay there through the round until you accept or decline, so you can use this as a "overrun" strike so that when your flag is completely lost you launch the strike. Ofc this doesn't work while the area attack isn't ready so if you want to use it whenever available it gets more tricky.

Posted: **2013-03-27 01:54**

Well said A.Wickens.

With the decline of CO's means the community really doesn't know the benefits. New players are being robbed by old arguments about CO's perpetuated in the servers.

I've seen new players become excellent squad leaders. The same happens with CO's as they immerse themselves into that role. I've experience some absolutely spectacular games with a CO at the helm.

And Wickens is dead on. Win or lose it is the quality.

Posted: **2013-03-27 18:08**

Gracler wrote:That is a perfect example of what it means to be a leader. Just because you are a leader and you think you are trying to do the best for your team, 1 bad decision from one of your officers would end your career as a commander.
Leader role doesn't make you god-like. It makes you a decision maker and the end-station for complaints.

In your case yes your officer was at fault for asking for the area attack, but your the commander and you pressed the red button so it is your responsibility. Later you can complaint about your officer, but the crowd will take it all out on you. Just watch the news... this type of thing happens every day that a bad adviser gets his employer fired.

What I would have done is figure out by moving as close on foot or helicopter where I want the area attack and then ask the nearest Officer to order it so I can accept it.
Also a little hint that is perhaps not intended by the developers but you can Pre-order an attack on a key area and it will stay there through the round until you accept or decline, so you can use this as a "overrun" strike so that when your flag is completely lost you launch the strike. Ofc this doesn't work while the area attack isn't ready so if you want to use it whenever available it gets more tricky.

Very well said ! Really !

What i've to do to Pre-Order one Area Attack ?

Posted: **2013-03-28 11:13**

'[R-DEV wrote:K4on;1878500']

This video I never understood?

Do you like to be in control?

No I don't like to be in control. See, If I wanted to be in control of a PR battle, I would play in single player mode, not in multi player.

CO multi is about adaptation, orientation, self-awareness, about not being in control, about trying to survive in that complex environment where things easily get out of control. That's why I like to design plans, and to organise teams, and to try and lead teams too, - cause those efforts are my attempt to reduce the experience of complexity of being out of control.

A promoting video should ask different questions, like for instance:

Like to Lead?
Prefer to Plan?
Can you Coordinate?
Can you Communicate?
Open organiser?
Accepting adaptability?

Posted: **2013-03-28 12:07**

Phoenixo_Idaho wrote: What i've to do to Pre-Order one Area Attack ?

Nothing special.

Whenever the area attack is available and you don't have a good target you can tell a SL to order a strike at a certain location for example a "defend" flag.
Then you just leave it there until you want to fire it.
Same principle as setting up clay-more.... only this one has a bit more of a punch...and about 45 Second delay fuse

.

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