Project Reality Forums

Good post Yosik!

There are manny things one can do to keep the mod alive, there also manny things one shouldnt do to keep PR going.




D.J.

VTRaptor wrote:Allow passworded servers to increase max player limit.

Is there actually any legit reason devs decided to limit the number of players to only 100?

Why does any game have that limitation? It's for a variation of design, performance and balancing. 100p fits the current game and community the best. We also don't limit it to 100p, you can have less if you want AFAIK

[R-DEV]Mineral wrote:Why does any game have that limitation? It's for a variation of design, performance and balancing. 100p fits the current game and community the best. We also don't limit it to 100p, you can have less if you want AFAIK

But is there actually a list of reasons why you decided to limit it to only 100 and not 128? Actual reasons, and not "we just feel like it fits". Because DEVs that play maybe 3 games a month are not really in a position to make that claim sound reasonable.

[R-DEV]Yosik wrote: It's easy to start contributing, people will help you out and you will get a lot out of it in addition to the game's growth. There are plenty of guides on just about anything on the modding forums and programming guides online.
Can't contribute something yourself? Try making formal and organized suggestions without bashing everything and see what happens. Feel free to send me or anyone on the team a PM if you have a brilliant suggestion and feel like the devs are ignoring it, I guarantee that I will give you constructive feedback and try to make it happen if it's good.

Great post Yosik! I think you pretty much nailed the reality of it all and specially the fact that instead of fighting we could be working together to make the game even better.

Bluedrake, I strongly believe that you love PR more than anything you've played because I am a huge fan of your work and I've never seen you have more fun than when playing PR.

I also believe you have a huge and great community that back you up, including some talented artists, coders etc that you could rally to help PR get things done faster and better and leave your mark in the game. Don't get me wrong you've left your mark in the PR community but perhaps you and your team could also contribute with something you want in PR.

Things like these come to my mind (some are just crazy ideas):

- Have your team help with WW2 pending content so it can be released faster.
- Have your coders help with Python improvements to reduce CTD, bring new game modes, improve server performance and functionality etc.
- Help Improving the textures of some assets that currently have low quality/WIP textures like several vehicles interiors, some sky settings of several maps etc.
- Get the BF2 source code from someone inside Dice that you know. (use your influence dammit!
- Help fixing the remaining issues with the long neglected COOP play of PR, fixing things like bots firing trough smoke/bushes etc. Make them patrol/defend better and behave more like humans.

In this regard I don't agree with Rhino. I believe COOP does require and allows teamplay among human players and could be the perfect training ground for new players. Just imagine human commanders guiding the bots and human squad leaders ordering bots around just like in games like OPF: Dragon Rising. All what is required is for some skillful python coder to fix the bots to follow all the Squad Leader/Commander commands and then COOP would be almost as good as PVP. Example: Squad Leaders ordering his team of bots into a building would simulate them taking cover etc.

Coming from modding the MOBA genre, most commercial mobas also initially thought that Ai was not necessary and that they were a purely PVP scene yet a few years later ALL of the mobas implemented Ai bots as the learning curve was too steep for players to start in PVP right away. Now Ai is a main focus of Dota 2, the most popular moba and I don't think Valve would invest it in if it wasn't good for the game or the teamplay.

I think PR or the community should dedicate at least one coder to the improvement of the COOP experience. I know that many PR mappers already work on the subject but their ability to improve the experience is limited to placing the nav points as good as possible and that's basically it.

We've done a bunch of testing with different amounts of players and (map) layers. Higher player numbers are really cool, but the PR gameplay the devs are striving for cannot be met properly anymore.

Also, a higher player count has a lot of impact on performance. People have performance issues with 100 players already, let alone even more.

100 players is more than enough on PR sized maps to still have proper gameplay and not hurt performance too much. Also keep in mind we have maps ranging from 1km to 4km, and the player count is the same on all sizes.

If we open up the player limit, even if it's on a passworded server, servers will run with as many players as they like (200 for example). Whilst that sounds cool, it just doesn't deliver the gameplay we want PR to deliver.

Sure, a 200 player Omaha Beach event was the ultimate bomb, because such a map and its gameplay can handle that amount. Most other maps simply can't.

There's no official list, this is it.

And to be fair, devs that are making the game actually _can_ make such claims.

Lugi wrote:But is there actually a list of reasons why you decided to limit it to only 100 and not 128? Actual reasons, and not "we just feel like it fits". Because DEVs that play maybe 3 games a month are not really in a position to make that claim sound reasonable.

Go ahead and put on your modding pants and hop in then!

Valmont wrote:Things like these come to my mind (some are just crazy ideas):

- Have your team help with WW2 pending content so it can be released faster.
- Have your coders help with Python improvements to reduce CTD, bring new game modes, improve server performance and functionality etc.
- Help Improving the textures of some assets that currently have low quality/WIP textures like several vehicles interiors, some sky settings of several maps etc.
- Get the BF2 source code from someone inside Dice that you know. (use your influence dammit!
- Help fixing the remaining issues with the long neglected COOP play of PR, fixing things like bots firing trough smoke/bushes etc. Make them patrol/defend better and behave more like humans.

Thanks for the kind words Valmont <3

As far as what we're able to contribute to the PR community, don't worry. I think we're very aware what we're able to contribute. However we made the decision a while ago, that unless the lineup and/or behavior of the core team changes... we're only focusing our resources internally from now on.

I've committed a lot of effort to Project Reality (and Squad) in the past, a good portion of it wasted or undermined by others, but also a good portion of it well-received. I'm happy with what we've done for the Project Reality community, but I also think there is a time to move on at a certain point.

I'll always be around to see if things change, but I think I've learned a valuable lesson... that its easier (and healthier) to find new people who work and behave the way I think people should, than to spend time trying to change people who don't.

I probably spent a lot more time than I should have working inside this community trying to improve it, despite all the backlash we received. Probably because of my dedication and love for it. However ultimately, looking back... it would have made so much more sense to have put that effort and work into ourselves.

Max and I are good friends, and I watched him for a long time building his game. It was incredible seeing someone take that passion, but building something completely original. Not piggy backing on anyone else, or using someone else's steam... just putting that effort into something new. It truly was inspiring.

He's the creator of Hell Let Loose:
https://www.hellletloose.com/

After our mini-mod for Project Reality was deleted from Mineral's master server, we decided to start doing that. We stopped putting that effort into someone else's game, and started putting it into ourselves. We built ourselves our own game, completely from scratch (Java & LibGDX) and built our own game community.

You have no idea how rewarding it is to have something like that, that is just your own uncompromising accomplishment. Its so great. It would be very hard to convince me to put that effort into anyone else's game after having that.

So for the few people I know who are planning to make future "unofficial" Project Reality branded successors, on different platforms and different games... I can only recommend one thing. Don't call it Project Reality. Don't make something for someone else's community, and someone else's brand. Make something new. Make something for yourself.

Look into Unreal Engine 4, look into Unity, fuck it look into LibGDX... anything else. If you think it is impossible, I can assure you it isn't. Hell you might even end up getting a job because of it... a lot of people in my community (including myself) got employed because of that.

Maybe we should get back to the original intention of this thread, because it's getting off-topic like crazy .

'[R-DEV wrote:Mineral;2173648']Why does any game have that limitation? It's for a variation of design, performance and balancing. 100p fits the current game and community the best.

I agree, but it fits normal, pub servers. I can't imagine playing with 200 other players on normal server. We're talking about EVENTS.

'[R-DEV wrote:AfterDune;2173655']100 players is more than enough on PR sized maps to still have proper gameplay and not hurt performance too much. Also keep in mind we have maps ranging from 1km to 4km, and the player count is the same on all sizes.

If we open up the player limit, even if it's on a passworded server, servers will run with as many players as they like (200 for example). Whilst that sounds cool, it just doesn't deliver the gameplay we want PR to deliver.

Sure, a 200 player Omaha Beach event was the ultimate bomb, because such a map and its gameplay can handle that amount. Most other maps simply can't.

Let clans and communities deliver it with organised events. If you REALLY want to stop people from asking for more than 100p, let them have it and IF it's really broken, let them see it for themselves.

And look at it from this side --> clans and communities would have to cooperate to get that high player number on organised events.

I fully understand why 100p, but let us push the limits. Something that cool would surely bring some players.


just stop thinking, that someone is really going to play 1km map with 200p, i know that it's haunting you xd

CPT.mikemei is semi popular with or and uploads regularly

[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:Whilst that sounds cool, it just doesn't deliver the gameplay we want PR to deliver.

But not exactly the kind of gameplay most players would want to receive it seems. Was there at least a poll saying "Which number of players makes the gameplay best for you?"? You could easily check out if the devteam's opinion aligns with the opinion of the playerbase

Also, a higher player count has a lot of impact on performance. People have performance issues with 100 players already, let alone even more.

How many people is that, 0,1%?

Also keep in mind we have maps ranging from 1km to 4km, and the player count is the same on all sizes.

That's why we have mods setting the next map, they would just avoid smaller maps with more people.

Sure, a 200 player Omaha Beach event was the ultimate bomb, because such a map and its gameplay can handle that amount.

Then why not repeat that event then? I fail to see any downsides.

And to be fair, devs that are making the game actually _can_ make such claims.

Of course, but how valuable is a opinion about gameplay from a person that barely ever even plays this game. Be honest, how much did you spend playing pr in the last month?

PR battles are already scaled down in terms of manpower compared to real ones like 5-10 times. Distances in the game being heavily scaled down as well only enhance the effect of isolation on the battlefield. This game never felt like an actual battle, more like spec ops squads engaging each other.

You can disagree, which is fine, but this isn't open for discussion, sorry.

[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:You can disagree, which is fine, but this isn't open for discussion, sorry.

Yup, "Fuck you, we know best (even though we hardly ever actually play the game)"

Real classy .

The game would've looked entirely different if we'd listen to everyone and implement whatever people wanted. It's unfortunate when people feel (butt)hurt whenever we disagree with them. Some then start accusing developers they never listen, never play the game and have no idea what's going on. Oh well, I suppose that's the burden of being a developer.

Keep in mind that contributors and developers come from the exact same community you're part of. They became contributors and developers because they wanted to make a change, a difference, add to the mod, improve it. Sometimes they brought radical changes that would obviously totally destroy the mod. Well, it's been over 10 years and we're doing pretty well still, all things considered.

Anyway, this thread has served its purpose and has derailed a little too much. Therefor I'll close it now.

I'll end my little balad with this: if you feel something needs to change, don't just talk about it, do something. And maybe, like many others before you, we want you on the team to make that change happen.

Cheers.

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Yosik;2173635']I can tell you from my own experience that all it took for me to have influence on the game's direction and to attempt to "revitalize" it myself was to start working on things that I wanted to improve. I joined the team without any interview, proof of loyalty by insulting virtual personalities, or even anyone hearing my voice. It was exclusively my work and dedication to it that got the team to consider me as a member. I wrote a bunch of suggestions on the forum, got contacted by one of the team's members who wanted me to make them happen, started working with him for a while on other things as well and got into the team as a contributor after proving myself by work alone. After a while I was 'promoted' to R-DEV to find out that nothing is really hidden from anyone.

The game isn't ran by a secret club and there isn't anything really interesting in the private forums or chat, other than ideas and work progress that isn't always shared with the community because these things take a long time and sometimes get canceled. The team is entirely focused on making the game better and are pretty transparent about what's going on, sometimes it requires one to ask about something politely on the forums but he'll get a honest a reply.

While there are cases of team members commenting on community members' subversive, incorrect, abusive, insulting, ridiculous, etc behavior it is, as you say, done in private and not in a way that would shame the person who warranted some form of ridicule/judgment/commentary in front of the entire community. In addition to that, that type of behavior is rare and represents the opinion of the person who decided to comment on something with the people that he talks to daily on the platform which is available to him, not the entire team's opinion. Which is entirely in that person's right seeing that the chat is private and anyone can tell him that he finds what ever it is that he is saying offensive and would like him to stop. Obviously this doesn't hurt anyone's productivity or work and still every suggestion is taken seriously.

My contributions are within my field of expertise and I enjoy the act of doing them in addition to enjoying their contribution. If you want to help the game there are tons of ways to do it that can benefit you as well(as long as you do good charity your motives don't matter). It can be getting experience of programming by working on some new feature that you think is missing from the game(optimizations in python code, CPython improvements, launcher addons, gameplay fixes etc)/creating tools to make modding faster and more accessible(bfmeshview, 3dmax tools etc.)/creating external tools for viewership(pr tracker)/new gamemodes(cnc redux), experience modeling/animating/texturing assets, experience leading a community faction, experience creating maps, w/e you can think of honestly. You'll get a lot of feedback from experienced people(see: Rhino's 2 page long comments on anyone working on any art in the modding forums), you'll leave a mark on the game, provide a real contribution to the game's success(which is probably in your best interests as well) and might have fun doing it in addition to learning new skills and working in a team.

Obviously if you don't want/don't have time to learn a new skill/improve an existing one/simply fill your free time doing what you already do professionally, there are tons of 'community' things that you can do. You can start a server with good and active admins, create a clan that trains newbies and makes them formidable people that are fun to play with and train others, seed servers with your clan, report cheaters, create community events, write suggestions on the forums, post youtube videos that promote the game(memes, trailers, informative content.) etc. These things also benefit you socially/ad revenue/becoming a project manager irl, and are as important. The game won't go very far without non-braindead servers and players. This may not be the devs' focus by bestowing 'executive event manager' style titles on people but you can get them if you will start doing this type of things, prove that your contribution is worthwhile and find a reason why that buzzword title will help you do your job better.


tl;dr Don't listen to subversive hateful bullshit. It's easy to start contributing, people will help you out and you will get a lot out of it in addition to the game's growth. There are plenty of guides on just about anything on the modding forums and programming guides online.
Can't contribute something yourself? Try making formal and organized suggestions without bashing everything and see what happens. Feel free to send me or anyone on the team a PM if you have a brilliant suggestion and feel like the devs are ignoring it, I guarantee that I will give you constructive feedback and try to make it happen if it's good.[/quote]

Excellnt post Yosik, couldn't have said it better myself!

[quote="Valmont""]In this regard I don't agree with Rhino. I believe COOP does require and allows teamplay among human players and could be the perfect training ground for new players.[/quote]

No that isn't what I said, what I said was:
[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;2173574']The SP/AI/Bots side of the BF2 engine is probably its worst side and also is totally the opposite of what PR is about, which is team work, where the only area AI/Bots comes into that, is CoOp play, and there are far better CoOp games out there if someone is looking for that style of play.[/quote]

CoOp games do allow for greate teamwork and some of my fravioute games of all time are CoOp games/modes.

And while yes, I agree the idea of SP/CoOp Training missions for new players is an excellent idea and one we would all love to see, as far as I'm aware at least, the BF2 engine simply can't do anything worthwhile in that regards as you simply can't have that much control over the bots to have them do anything more than just get in the way of anyone trying to learn the basics.

[quote="Valmont""]I think PR or the community should dedicate at least one coder to the improvement of the COOP experience. I know that many PR mappers already work on the subject but their ability to improve the experience is limited to placing the nav points as good as possible and that's basically it.[/quote]

We already do. [R-DEV] melonmuncher is totally dedicated to working on the SP side, along with getting lots of help from [R-DEV]Arab, [R-DEV]Outlawz7 and [R-CON]Spyker2041. Possibly left out a few names, I'm hardly involved in the SP side of things other than making col3 meshes for statics (navigation collision meshes so bots know how to walk, shoot and generally how to behave around statics) but we have people working hard on the SP/CoOp side of the mod. Right now their main focus is fixing the whole "PiNone Errors", which from what I understand if a vehicle has a dummy weapon or w/e setup with the PiNone input setting and a bot tries to fire/use it (since somehow bots have a PiNone button on their keyboards), it crashes the server and the only way to really fix it is to go through every vehicle's AI settings and tell bots not to fire these weapons, which is really time-consuming. I don't know all the facts about this issue thou you would have to speak to one of the guys I mentioned above for more info on it.