Project Reality Forums

You don't see it. Most of us don't want to invest in another engine. We just do what we know how to do, because it's a way for us to relax. Most of us aren't aiming to get a job in the gaming industry either. Some obviously want to - and will end up there I'm sure.

That's why I suggested the HD variant. Obviously that's a quick but short "win". It'd give PR a couple of more years, looking shiny and all. But it certainly doesn't promise a bright future. I think that's quite obvious.

However, anyone from the team (and the community) can work on a new engine, whichever one that may be. But don't expect them to code in C++, hardly anyone here has experience with that. Blueprints might take you a long way, at first anyway.

Will it be a next-gen PR? Who knows.

People still play chess and GO. Which has been around for a thousand years. Why not PR? INFINITE GAME!

How to make PR get more people? - Make updates and marketing that gets alot of attention.
How to make new players play PR correctly? - Make microphones a huge deal when they download the game and install it. Make a bootcamp/training level in PR which has the basic kits, concepts and tactics.

Simple stuff, but hard to accomplish. If we can find a format that is easily distributed to the rest of the world, we can easily gain members with social media. I suggested 7-20 second videos of funny/memeworthy stuff.

Making a bootcamp/training level? Thats fucking afterdune/rpoxo/mineral level with like 2-3 week drive to push it out. Might even bring in some COOP devs.

Just what I think. Getting back into the game is only worth it, if there is someone else willing to get into the game. Can't go to war alone.

[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote: However, anyone from the team (and the community) can work on a new engine, whichever one that may be. But don't expect them to code in C++, hardly anyone here has experience with that. Blueprints might take you a long way, at first anyway.

Will it be a next-gen PR? Who knows.

This tbh, if you want to get it done, stop being a pussy and just do it. I could be very wong here, but I'm pretty sure that most or a significant part of PR's assets are old and aren't very suitable for modern engines, so in the asset department (models, for example) you'd have to almost start from scratch anyway.

If you want to get it done, recruit who is interested and start.

Wicca wrote:People still play chess and GO. Which has been around for a thousand years. Why not PR? INFINITE GAME!

How to make PR get more people? - Make updates and marketing that gets alot of attention.
How to make new players play PR correctly? - Make microphones a huge deal when they download the game and install it. Make a bootcamp/training level in PR which has the basic kits, concepts and tactics.

Simple stuff, but hard to accomplish. If we can find a format that is easily distributed to the rest of the world, we can easily gain members with social media. I suggested 7-20 second videos of funny/memeworthy stuff.

Making a bootcamp/training level? Thats fucking afterdune/rpoxo/mineral level with like 2-3 week drive to push it out. Might even bring in some COOP devs.

Just what I think. Getting back into the game is only worth it, if there is someone else willing to get into the game. Can't go to war alone.

I'm sorry, am I not doing this correctly?

[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:You don't see it. Most of us don't want to invest in another engine. We just do what we know how to do, because it's a way for us to relax. Most of us aren't aiming to get a job in the gaming industry either. Some obviously want to - and will end up there I'm sure.

Look its fine, I'm not asking anything. Its just disappointing to me, and I'm not saying you all have to do anything. Its just not what I would have done, and that frustrates me. It would have been nice if more of the community was given official backing to expand the PR community, but its not my call. I guess you all tried that with PRA3 and PR2, and felt so disappointed with the first failure... that you refused to try it again.

I kindof wish that wasn't your mentality, but I'm not saying you have to change it. I've accepted that you all are the ones that have to make that decision, and if you don't... then that's fine. Not mad, just disappointed.

The funny thing BD, what your asking for has already been done, on the UE4 engine under the name of Squad. Now I know you are not happy with that outcome, but frankly, you would have been even more disappointed with PR2 as it was falling much further away from the core PR gameplay/experience than even Squad has.

As AD has said, anyone left here on PR is only doing it as a hobby, on top of other jobs and r/l stuff, and all we are interested tbh is making the most of PR and the BF2 engine, as we love it, know it works and have invested many years of work into it already and just want to finish what we have started and we are no way in a position of setting up an indie studio to make basically a competitor to Squad that you want, and tbh, no one here wants to do that even if we in a position to.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:we are no way in a position of setting up an indie studio

Not asking you all to work on it. Like AD said, most of you aren't even geared towards working on a C++ based game anyways. I would have wanted to see you all support it, and even integrate yourselves with it... or allow ways for it to have been integrated further into the community. Obviously I wouldn't expect the Project Reality team to assume the burden of building it entirely themselves, that would be unreasonable.

Just wanted you all to make the community more open so more can be done by others to maintain the Project Reality community outside of the primary team.

I would have liked to have seen more ways for the original Project Reality community to contribute to the core Project Reality brand. There were a lot more opportunities and avenues to grow the Project Reality community than anyone from RDEV took advantage of. Now I think that neglect is biting you in the butt... unless your goal has changed to just ultimately die, which is the message I'm now constantly getting.

Which is fine.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote: to make basically a competitor to Squad that you want, and tbh, no one here wants to do that even if we in a position to.

No I don't like Squad, but that's irrelevant to this.

Squad will drown in UE4's own upcoming surge of Squad clones regardless. PR2 doesn't have to exist to give Squad competition. That's going to happen anyways. Squad doesn't need me to unravel itself, they do that themselves well enough.

There is simply a significant difference between the spirit of a fully commercial game, vs the spirit of a community built one. Even all the competitors to Squad will share all the same problems Squad has... that their heart is in the wrong place. If there was ever a chance to recapture that original Project Reality spirit... it would be with the original Project Reality community.

Obviously I won't give up personally... we'll always continue developing on our own side of the fence... but if there were ever a chance to not completely splinter the original Project Reality community into a thousand off-brand successors... that would be ideal. Doesn't look like that will happen... but that's okay.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:we love it, and just want to finish what we have started

That's fine. That's all I wanted to know. Again, not what I would have done. I'm not the one making the decisions though, so I accept that. Obviously my group will continue to do our own thing, I just continue trying to make sure that Project Reality truly is done with itself. If that is the case, then that's alright.

Still disappointed, but I accept it.

Bluedrake42 wrote:Just wanted you all to make the community more open so more can be done by others to maintain the Project Reality community outside of the primary team.

As I've already said, we can't just give out all our assets down to legal reasons and if we did, people would just exploit that too, with shoving them in cheap commercial titles to make some quick cash with very little effort.

Project Reality also has no real branding. We do not own the rights to the name which is also why you were able to take on the name "PR:ARMA3" for your ARMA3 mod.

I'm sorry but you keep on saying you want us to open PR up, but there is nothing here to open up, other than giving out our assets for free which I've already explained we can't and won't do for lots of reasons I've already listed in previous posts.

If people want to go out and make a PR style mod or game, (which you keep on talking about other indie games that already have) then they can without our help/branding, but there is nothing we can do to support them and they are better off going off and doing their own thing than trying to build off PR's foundations which are not strong enough to build anything more than just PR:BF2 off of, which is one of the big reasons why PR2, PR:ARMA3 etc failed as well. It is also far better for anyone working on a new title not to have to live up to the PR hype and grow their own title organically.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:As I've already said, we can't just give out all our assets down to legal reasons and if we did, people would just exploit that too, with shoving them in cheap commercial titles to make some quick cash with very little effort.

Wouldn't ask for them. It wouldn't be required.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:Project Reality also has no real branding. We do not own the rights to the name which is also why you were able to take on the name "PR:ARMA3" for your ARMA3 mod.

Oh no, don't worry. I'm very well aware.

At a certain point though without centralizing with the original Project Reality community... it gets to a point, where why even call it that.

I was around Squad when they were debating on just calling it Project Reality 2. Nothing legally could stop them... but why even do that. If it isn't truly integrated in some way with the original community... then why even bother. All it does is muddy the brand, and hurts everyone.

I started the Project Reality: ArmA III project as an intent to show that the idea was still achievable, and that it could easily be done with the right motivation. I was hoping after a certain point it would rekindle interest from the primary team, and someone would take our work and run with it... or do literally anything.

However once it was obvious that wasn't going to happen... then there is no reason to continue the project. It would have been easier to simply create a new brand, instead of trying to help expand the original Project Reality community.

I'm sorry but you keep on saying you want us to open PR up, but there is nothing here to open up, other than giving out our assets for free which I've already explained we can't and won't do for lots of reasons I've already listed in previous posts.

Not asking for that.

If people want to go out and make a PR style mod or game, (which you keep on talking about other indie games that already have) then they can without our help/branding, but there is nothing we can do to support them and they are better off going off and doing their own thing than trying to build off PR's foundations which are not strong enough to build anything more than just PR:BF2 off of, which is one of the big reasons why PR2, PR:ARMA3 etc failed as well. It is also far better for anyone working on a new title not to have to live up to the PR hype and grow their own title organically.

PR2 and PRA3 could have absolutely succeeded if they were given the right environment. The problem you all have with new projects, is you think that you magically only have one shot... and if that one shot fails, then burn down the entire thing.

You should have saved all that work, and you should have been more proactive reorganizing it when certain paths failed.

I literally rebuilt PRA3 from scratch for you... twice... and would have happily handed over everything we made for official R-Developers to continue the project.

Your problem is that you give complete control of new projects to a specific person... and then once that person falls through, you let the entire project fall through with them.

That is your central point of failure.

If you would stop being so restrictive, and go in the complete opposite direction... you would succeed. The complete opposite direction is letting as many people attempt a successor as possible, and then selecting the furthest moving project and incorporate it as an official product. That is what you should have done.

The only reason PR:BF2 is so great, is because there were 200 other Battlefield 2 mods that tried doing the exact same thing that failed. You all are a product of survival of the fittest... in a way decided by chance. Yet you all keep operating like that isn't the case.

If you want future Project Reality projects to succeed, you need to operate the same way you originally succeeded. Survival of the fittest. You need to give your community obscene room to start an abundance of "pitch" or "prototype" projects, let 200 of them fail... and then pick the most successful one... and give it your official branding.

If you did that, the Project Reality community would survive.

Bluedrake42 wrote:Not asking for that.

I don't think you know what you're asking for.

Bluedrake42 wrote:You should have saved all that work, and you should have been more proactive reorganizing it when certain paths failed.

lol, you're blaming us (the PR:BF2 guys), for something that we had nothing to do with.

I think what your failing to understand that PR2, PR:ARAM etc where totally separate projects, which was made that way by people like TwistedHelix, who refused to even work with the rest of the PR team and shut everything away and is also why hardly any of the work survives from that project, as when it burnt down as you put it, all that work burnt down with it.

Bluedrake42 wrote:I literally rebuilt PRA3 from scratch for you... twice... and would have happily handed over everything we made for official R-Developers to continue the project.

Your problem is that you give complete control of new projects to a specific person... and then once that person falls through, you let the entire project fall through with them.

That is your central point of failure.

If you would stop being so restrictive, and go in the complete opposite direction... you would succeed. The complete opposite direction is letting as many people attempt a successor as possible, and then selecting the furthest moving project and incorporate it as an official product. That is what you should have done.

lol you think we wanted it setup like that? We, the PR:BF2 guys, where totally against how that was done, but TwistedHelix was the main driving force of having everything totally separated and with PR2, PR:ARAM etc under his control.

Bluedrake42 wrote:The only reason PR:BF2 is so great, is because there were 200 other Battlefield 2 mods that tried doing the exact same thing that failed.

That is hardly it. PR:BF2 had totally unique gameplay, where most other BF2 mods, where pretty much copies of the vBF2 gameplay, with new content. That is why PR survived and the others did not, as people who were interested in vBF2 style gameplay, didn't want to play on non-ranked servers even if it meant playing with new content, unless it was SP games.

Bluedrake42 wrote:and then pick the most successful one... and give it your official branding.

Again, PR has no official branding. Also by the time a project was successful, it would be to late to transplant the "PR branding" onto it...

As I've said before, If you really want to make something in the same way PR succeeded, then you have to let something grow totally organically, with new branding, and totally no occasion to PR (one area where Squad went wrong IMO is emphasising a little too much that it was being made by "the PR Developers" and it being the "spiritual successor to PR", put far too much burden on the project, but they kinda had to do that for their Kickstarter campaign and would have totally had to change that if they where going to try and grow organically).

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:I don't think you know what you're asking for.

I don't think you know what I'm asking for.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:lol, you're blaming us (the PR:BF2 guys), for something that we had nothing to do with.

I think what your failing to understand that PR2, PR:ARAM etc where totally separate projects, which was made that way by people like TwistedHelix, who refused to even work with the rest of the PR team and shut everything away and is also why hardly any of the work survives from that project, as when it burnt down as you put it, all that work burnt down with it.

lol you think we wanted it setup like that? We, the PR:BF2 guys, where totally against how that was done, but TwistedHelix was the main driving force of having everything totally separated and with PR2, PR:ARAM etc under his control.

And now he is gone. So what is stopping you from trying it again a new and different way.

That is hardly it. PR:BF2 had totally unique gameplay, where most other BF2 mods, where pretty much copies of the vBF2 gameplay, with new content. That is why PR survived and the others did not, as people who were interested in vBF2 style gameplay, didn't want to play on non-ranked servers even if it meant playing with new content, unless it was SP games.

You're missing the point. You keep getting tunnel vision with "we survived because of our unique gameplay." Yes okay, but why did "your unique gameplay" outclass everyone else's unique gameplay?

Short answer, no one could have called that. It was a huge stroke of both talent and luck, and if you want to stack the cards to better the odds of that happening again, you need to create a controlled environment where you can catalyze that environment again... where multiple teams are openly able to experiment with new ideas and expansions... and the most successful of them are onboarded.

Again, PR has no official branding. Also by the time a project was successful, it would be to late to transplant the "PR branding" onto it...

That's because you have no structure. You're saying this like its somehow impossible. Use a little imagination, and I guarantee you could find a process to make this possible.

You could make an official submission section. You could actually spend some time trademarking your damn trademark, and then use that as a better way to control branding decisions. You could make a contest.

Poke around in that imagination of yours, and figure it out. I could spit out 30 potential solutions off the top of my head.

As I've said before, If you really want to make something in the same way PR succeeded, then you have to let something grow totally organically, with new branding, and totally no occasion to PR (one area where Squad went wrong IMO is emphasising a little too much that it was being made by "the PR Developers" and it being the "spiritual successor to PR", put far too much burden on the project, but they kinda had to do that for their Kickstarter campaign and would have totally had to change that if they where going to try and grow organically).

I am literally explaining to you how to do this successfully internally.

No you don't need new branding.

No you don't need to start separately from PR.

You have a roadmap to this laid out in front of you.

If you really want to make something in the same way PR succeeded, then you have to let something grow totally organically, with new branding, and totally no occasion to PR

I think what frustrates me the most, is that you talk like somehow this is unheard of and impossible.

How the hell do you think Insurgency did it? New World Interactive has now released three games and a mod... all under the same community, and with the same LLC.

Yet you act like somehow doing this is inconceivable.

This is not impossible. What you all need to do is:

1. Get your accounts and **** together. Idk who tried to powerplay that shit away from you in the past, but just triage it and put together a plan of action to permanently re-consolidate it in a way that all the remaining controlling parties agree to (and that can't be lost again.)

2. Get your business and trademarking **** together. Once you have your accounts and systems consolidated, finally officially register Project Reality as a non-profit organization, and centralize your contracts, trademarks, and otherwise under a single entity... and with a properly dynamic board.

3. Brainstorm a properly managed program for community content and software submissions for "official" Project Reality content, obviously curated by a board, and immortalized by your newly drafted organization's non-profit non-commercial intellectual property assignment agreements. This way you can have a centralized flow of new ideas, IP, and software "pitches" that no longer can usurped by a single member... only official software aggregation curated by a board... and maintained in neutral permanent repositories.

4. Promote and open up this new submission pipeline, and drive as much traffic through it as you can... while simultaneously training as many of your community members as possible in the relevant skills the organization is interested in developing... in the hopes that the people you train will commit and contribute to your core community submission pipeline.

Do that.

Or don't.

But don't tell me "it isn't possible" because that's absurd.

Why all this smartassing from BD all of a sudden?

The game is so good because of us. We all want to go on the mission together.

Bluedrake42 wrote:while simultaneously training as many of your community members as possible in the relevant skills the organization is interested in developing...

I'm ready to explain* how to create or/and export animations(1p,3p) for BF2 R, but show me those members you talking about that ready to spend all their free time learning that stuff? You saying such things like there tons of volunteers...

*You cant training other people in animations, modelling or mapping. Atleast its not worked for me. Best teacher is practice, all what others can do for you is show you tools, process and answers if you have questions. All of this you can find in modding section.
Also in my opinion, skill factor is not so much important, you can always improve yourself during development process, but ability to finish your project - thats highest value of developer. This is maybe hardest stuff you need to learn by yourself and actually nobody cant help you with it.

Bluedrake42 wrote: The tools and process of contribution for the Project Reality community haven't been properly opened or maintained in a way that effectively incentivizes contribution.

What tools exactly is closed for community?

Bluedrake42 wrote: There is no clean, or unbiased method to contributing to the community... and I think that is an issue.

Where is DEVs biased to contributors?

Most PR players are already overwhelmed by playing the game, they dont turn into developer over night. Btw bluedraek how is harsh doorstep going? You should be finished by now since your whole community is working on it.

Bluedrake42 wrote: You're missing the point. You keep getting tunnel vision with "we survived because of our unique gameplay." Yes okay, but why did "your unique gameplay" outclass everyone else's unique gameplay?

Short answer, no one could have called that. It was a huge stroke of both talent and luck,

Sure, it was all luck. Point me to the similar mod from 2007 with 3 (?) new game modes such as convoy, insurgency, counterattack, and the great AAS. Including more accurate guns opening long range firefights, destructible buildings, special spawnpoints, buildable assets, parachute based maps, 4K maps, 2-manned assets, long asset spawn points,limited kits, some great new maps and general assets.

The early versions of PR was different from other mods at the time. There is a reason why it is the one many of us played.

BD makes some really good points, the tutorials could use some big streamlining, to make getting into modding easier and more attractive, the modding section also could use some more exposure outside the forums.

Btw is a transition to the BF2142 engine a realistic undertaking?

I dont think you guys are coming to terms with reality.

This mod is for a game that is 12 years old. Project reality is ancient, any time I have tried to get someone to play the game they are turned off by the graphics and ancient gameplay and engine. The reason we like Pr is because we have been playing it for a long time and have seen it evolve and look past its age. The reality is that an influx of new players just isn't going to happen. Starting to play a game for the first time that is 10 years old just is not fun


It is like any time your friend gets you to play a game that is their favorite but is like 7 years old, and you try it and dont like it because of its age and old feel, same thing for PR.

PR is a dying game and no amount of publicity or anything is going to change that.

bromley is one of them.



Valiant effort. Now please cease and desist.

I don't really get what BlueDrake wants. It's either in his phrasing or his thoughts that's something wrong(or maybe in my engrish).

Is he trying to make current PRM team to create another game for him or is he trying to make all the sources of PRM to be accessible by the "community"(him)?