Project Reality Forums

Posted: **2007-05-21 19:01**

Nice Top_Cat, good evaluation of the problem and its solutions.

Top _Cat the great wrote:1 - Big maps with large amounts of open ground but carefully layed out cover.

In v0.6 Kashan Desert is the biggest one, but we also have maps like Al Basrah, Qwai River, Jabal, Assault on Mestia and Seven Gates that bring a lot of room to manouver. Even other small maps have been tweaked to try to give more room.

Top _Cat the great wrote:2 - Long drawdistances on all players and vehicles.

This is one of the biggest changes in 0.6 and it's fantastic. The only sad thing is that the weapons don't render, but at least you can see the enemy far away and shoot it.

Top _Cat the great wrote:3 - Weapons whos recoil, power and accuracy allow players to enage enemy infantry on these big maps and long range effectively.

With the help of our military advisers and a bunch of references and research, we tried getting a more realistic touch to the weapons power and accuracy at long ranges. A lot of changes here and I will not discuss them

Top _Cat the great wrote:4 - KIt layouts that provides 90% of all players with the above weapons.

I think you meant "90% of all players without the above weapons". Kit limitation took care of that (not 90% but good enough).

Top _Cat the great wrote:5 - Kit layouts that limit the ammount of specialized equipement to the ammount required to forfill specialized objectives and NO more.

I think you mean not having HAT on a map that doesn't have tanks, etc. We didn't do that, and I don't think we actually agree with that. But we have different "reinforcement" times for different weapons that will encourage a smarter use of them. If you lose a HAT it will take 5 min to be available again for request (like a vehicle). No more that reservation thing.

Top _Cat the great wrote:6 - Game modes whos objectives encourage use of all area on the map

We are getting an experimental new game mode in v0.6 called "Insurgency" that does exactly what you said, "objectives that encourage use of all area of the map". This game mode is only in Al Basrah for now, and it's trying to model a better Insurgency combat dynamic together with the inclusion of civilians.

As british your objective is to hold key points in the city and search the hole area for weapons caches used by the insurgency. There are something like 40 of them in the map but the gamemode removes 30 of them randomly at round start leaving only 10. This means each round will be different

.

Insurgents have to defend these weapons caches because they actually serve a purpose to them (they give heavy weapons like the RPGs, PKMs and SVDs) and they can attack the key points in the city inflicting a ticket bleed to the british.

This gamemode will of course be tested in open beta and adjusted if needed, but we have a really good feeling about it.

Posted: **2007-05-21 20:24**

Thank you dbzao for that wonderfully detailed breakdown of my comments.

'[R-DEV wrote:dbzao']I think you meant "90% of all players without the above weapons". Kit limitation took care of that (not 90% but good enough).

No, i actualy meant with. Becuase the "above weapons" was refearing to weapons that allow the player to: "enage enemy infantry on these big maps and long range effectively". Note infantry and not APC's, tanks or jeeps. In .3 there was not enough assult rifles in the kit laodout, therefore it was often difficutl in a squad to have the firepower to enage in a medium range and sustained firefight.
When every one in your squad can suppress an enemy at 200m, you can then attempt to effectively suppress an entire squad and therefore flank them properly. If 1 man had an MP5, the other a pistol , and the other a dodgy sniperrifle, you cant really suppress an enemy squad at range with only 3 proper assult rifles.

However the next point about limited kits, refers to all specialized kits. At present there are still a number of specialized or marginely specialized kits that are not limited, namely L-AT and Grenadier. In RL they are not all that special but due to the limits of the game, in PR they are in certain situations too potent OVERALL compared to other less specialized kits. BUT AS I SAID< YOU are doing or have done exactly what needs to be done so me go....shhhh.

dbzao we get along well, good mates and all

so for the following suggestion i made almost half a year ago can i have a prize, mabey free viewing of the DEV forum for 10mins or something

Top _Cat the great POSTED WINTER 2006 :p wrote:SPWN point for insurgents that can be destroyed. FOr example a model of a pile of ammo, food and weapons which when C4 or similar charges are placed on it, it is all blown up adn the spwn point is no more.

THe reason for this is to reflect conflics like in Afganistan where the present *** flag capture is totaly unrealistic.

The above destroyable spwn combined with a normal flag capture (take in any order) would make a much more realsitic Mordern Army VS Insurgents.
An example of a map based aroudn this would be:
- 2 untakeable UK bases (at both ends of map, or far apart e.g - in desert, reprents what UK really do in Af at times)
- 2 flags that can be taken in any order by UK or Ins (a gov office - in Af they are a real target and a river side flag by a potoon - control that and youcontrol the potoon and in this case the onyl way to cross the big river deviding the map up)
- Mulitple destroyable Ins spwn points (in region of 8-12 on 64 map - these would be in realitic places e.g small town, mountain hut, hut hidden amougn fields by river, just out side village in destryed huts)

Key to the above map woudl the allocation of vehilces. In the ablve case the UK would have a acces to 6 + Landrover Rapid responce vehicles and 1 MErlin.
The choise of vehicles DICTATES gameplay and in this case enable the UK to more easily hunt down the Ins - move rapidly around the map.
While Tanks would be too slow and the high number of Ins spwn points would enable Ins to evade major conflict and make suprise atacks - so bad move for UK, so no tanks.

The possition of the DEstroyable SPwn points would be crucial to gameplay. To ensure a fair game but lots of action, Ins D-SPWn points would be place qutie close to the 2 takeable flags but also near key points like a river ford or along a mountain pass.

Both UK and Ins forces would go strait for the to takeable flags but the UK would also have to focus on hunting down and destroyign the Ins SPWN points - 2 KEY SIMPLE OBJECITVES.

THis carefull combination of above spwn points, light vehicles and maps that have lots of open terrain but devided up by rivers, farm land next to rivers and lots of ditches and tress - help create a balanced map for both Ins and Modern army.

The problems with this would be that players would learn where INs spwn points were adn go strait for them. However they would probaly meet resistance from spwning Ins - a balance or Not - would it become impossible for Ins after a while or not?!

TO conteract this 3 version of this map could be produced - alot of space and effort BUT if the map was superb adn the game type worked - no worries. All version would be the same except the locations of the destryoed ablle spwn points would be different - some location only slight, some more extreme. I ONLY sugges this becuase i dont think the BF2 engine could randomize this type of spwn point.

Posted: **2007-05-22 05:24**

CONDITIONS. The platoon/squad is halting or moving. The enemy initiates fires on the platoon/squad with an individual or crew-served weapon.

STANDARDS.
1. The unit returns fire immediately.
2. The unit locates and engages the enemy with well-aimed fire, and causes at least one enemy casualty.
3. The leader can point out at least one half of the enemy positions and identify the types of weapons (such as small arms, light machine gun).

PERFORMANCE MEASURES.
1. Soldiers SEE through AN/PVS-7B/4 and immediately take up the nearest covered positions.

2. Soldiers SEE the enemy positions and enemy weapons muzzle flashes through their AN/PVS-7B/4 and use their AN/PAQ-4 to return well-aimed fires at the target within three seconds.

3. Squad leader locates known or suspected enemy positions and marks left and right limits with the hand-held laser pointer, and passes information to the squad/platoon leader.

4. Fire team leaders control fires by using the standard fire commands (initial and supplemental). Team leaders use AN/PAQ-4 and BOIs (based on distance) to control fires, and illuminate engagement areas by using ir ground flares. The fire commands are as follows:
a. Alert.
b. Direction.
c. Description of target.
d. Range.
e. Method of Fire (manipulation, and rate of fire).
f. Command to commence firing.

5. Soldiers SEE and maintain contact with other soldiers on their left and right using AN/PVS-7B/4. Mark soldiers IAW unit SOP.

6. Soldiers maintain contact with their team leaders and indicate the location of the enemy using the AN/PAQ-4 and AN/PVS-7B.

7. Leaders check the status of their personnel through voice commands and AN/PVS-7B.

8. The squad/team leaders maintain contact with the platoon/squad leader through the AN/PVS-7B.

9. The platoon/squad leader moves up to the squad/team in contact and links up with its leader.
a. The platoon leader brings his RTO, platoon FO, the squad leader of the nearest squad, and one machine gun team.
b. The squad leader of the trail squad moves to the front of his lead fire team.
c. The platoon sergeant and weapons squad leader move forward with the second machine gun team and link up with the platoon leader, ready to assume control of the base of fire element.

10. The platoon/squad leader determines whether or not his platoon/squad must move out of the engagement area.

11. The platoon/squad leader determines whether or not he can gain and maintain suppressive fires with the element already in contact (based on the volume and accuracy of the enemy fires against the element in contact).

12. The platoon/squad leader makes an assessment of the situation. He identifies:
a. The location of the enemy position and obstacles guiding on the hand-held laser, and AN/PAQ-4 from the squad/team in contact.
b. The size of the enemy force by assessing the enemy's volume of fire, and muzzle flashes looking through his AN/PVS-7B (the number of enemy automatic weapons, the presence of any vehicles and the employment of indirect fire are indicators of the enemy's strength). c. Vulnerable flanks.
d. Covered and concealed flanking routes to the enemy position.

13. Determines the next course of action (for example, fire and movement, assault, breach, knock out bunker, enter and clear a building or trench).

14. The platoon/squad leader reports the situation to the company commander/platoon leader and begins to maneuver the unit.

15. The platoon/squad leader calls for and adjusts indirect fire (mortars or artillery). (Squad leaders relay requests through the platoon leader.)

16. Leaders relay all commands and signals from the platoon chain of command

As per the US Military ARTEP 7-8 for the earlier discussion on "legit" reactions under fire. Granted, this isnt' exactly how it happens in the field, but this is how we're trained.(by the book). On actual training exercises, the Master Sergeant who was a silver star awardee from the invasion into Iraq, would push us to our faces (full gear and everything) if we didn't drop fast enough for him. His experiences were that you drop to the ground when you first get under fire, depending on the situation. In an urban environment, it may make you a better target, but out in a field, it slims your profile and allows you to steady your rifle.

Posted: **2007-05-22 13:33**

Ok I didn't read all the posts in here, sorry. But my thoughts on people using non-rifle weapons to kill an enemy isn't a huge problem. Yes I hate people who snipe with AT kits, using them once in a while though is realistic. Half of the videos I have watched from Iraq basically show the US on a roof, shooting across the city at a building, then at about the 45 second mark a laser guided bomb comes screaming in and flattens the insurgents location (or an AT rocket). I don't think anyone would tell them "hey come on guys, only use you're M16 next time"

I think that what ever weapon suits the situation to keep your squad alive should be used. I don't support spamming or excessive sniping with AT kits. I do support nades when a nade will do the trick, I do support lighting up a bunker with AT to soften the target when needed.

Prone diving sucks but as already mentioned some people don't realize it's a bug. Sometimes hitting the dirt is just a gut reaction not a cheat.

Posted: **2007-05-22 20:28**

Guys, the issue isn't, I repeat ISN'T, that you can hit the dirt, or that hitting the dirt is a reaction and a realistic one at that. The issue is that you can return fire effectively (re: accurately) WHILE hitting the dirt, and continue to effectively return fire immediately after hitting the dirt.

Full gear or not, you wouldn't be able to hit the dirt while shooting and continue shooting the second you do hit the ground. You hit the dirt for cover, and then engage the enemy (if possible).

Posted: **2007-05-22 20:55**

The reality of combat is...you use what works. Sheesh.

Posted: **2007-05-22 21:10**

Hey! Welcome to the forums!

Great input! Except this isn't combat, this is a game trying to realistically replicate combat.

So there's no problem with: bunny hopping, insta-proning and shooting accurately, using grenade launchers at 3 feet even though you can't in real life, sprinting jumping and firing an RPG at one soldier ten feet away, etc.

Congrats, glad you've come to play with us.

Posted: **2007-05-22 22:08**

M16s are pants at this current stage of the mod. To me it feels underpowered and the recoil is a little high. That said I have never used one in rl. Give me a gun from any other faction over an m16 and I'm happy, especially with g3, but the weakness of the m16 is encouraging people to use other weapons and not engage in protracted firefights, which Is why there seems to be so many grenadiers, spec ops, and AT classes on the battlefield when the US are involved.

Posted: **2007-05-23 13:28**

Smitty4212 wrote:Guys, the issue isn't, I repeat ISN'T, that you can hit the dirt, or that hitting the dirt is a reaction and a realistic one at that. The issue is that you can return fire effectively (re: accurately) WHILE hitting the dirt, and continue to effectively return fire immediately after hitting the dirt.

Full gear or not, you wouldn't be able to hit the dirt while shooting and continue shooting the second you do hit the ground. You hit the dirt for cover, and then engage the enemy (if possible).

Hmm ok I see your point more clearly now with regards to the insta prone. So basically as soon as you hit the prone key you get all the accuracey benefits but the enemy gets all the disadvantages from the hitbox lag etc. I don't think without the source code this will ever be fixed unfortunately.

Posted: **2007-05-23 16:15**

I don't code for BF2, so I don't know what is or isn't possible, but considering the workarounds the PR team has found for certain things, I can't accept that there's nothing that can be done about it.

There's no way to force a delay between hitting prone and shooting? No way to fudge up the aim for the first second when going prone?

Posted: **2007-05-23 16:34**

ICE-GrindeR wrote:The reality of combat is...you use what works. Sheesh.

You don't already have what works at your hands. Just because an airstrike works doesn't always mean you will have one. Just because armor works doesn't always mean you will have one by your side. Just because a grenadier or Light AT kit works doesn't mean you will always be issued one etc.

Posted: **2007-05-23 16:35**

Hellequin wrote:M16s are pants at this current stage of the mod. To me it feels underpowered and the recoil is a little high. That said I have never used one in rl. Give me a gun from any other faction over an m16 and I'm happy, especially with g3, but the weakness of the m16 is encouraging people to use other weapons and not engage in protracted firefights, which Is why there seems to be so many grenadiers, spec ops, and AT classes on the battlefield when the US are involved.

Recoil is still loads in the 0.6 Beta, I'm sure the AK47 has less this time. It's certainly close.

Posted: **2007-05-23 23:43**

I hit em with my rifle of my sex monkey the m14 first then try to kill em with a smoke nade when my n00btube or rocket is out of ammo and my rifle needs a reload

Posted: **2007-05-24 03:10**

FIREFIGHTS ARE BACK v.6

Posted: **2007-05-24 03:30**

danthemanbuddy wrote:FIREFIGHTS ARE BACK v.6

Yeah, but they still last 5 seconds with prone spamming(that's how it's called, right?) everywhere.

Except for long range firefight, those last at least 20 seconds because everyone keep missing...

Posted: **2007-05-24 03:46**

danthemanbuddy wrote:I know prone diving can't be fixed at the moment.

You probably know this already, but if you don't then prepare to cry..
Patch 1.41 was the last patch for vBF2. There wont be any more patches, which means insta-proning will stay with us..

One would expect EA to have the face/manners to issue one last official patch.. but the word was spread by ex-DICE employees.

-Ghost

Posted: **2007-05-24 03:49**

'[R-DEV wrote:Ghostrider']You probably know this already, but if you don't then prepare to cry..
Patch 1.41 was the last patch for vBF2. There wont be any more patches, which means insta-proning will stay with us..

One would expect EA to have the face/manners to issue one last official patch.. but the word was spread by ex-DICE employees.
-Ghost

I was thinking along the lines of more animations like support kit. This would just require more animators.

ALso wondering if there was some tweak you could do, like add when in ironsights you can't prone, or a delay after you prone before your weapon fires.,

Just shooting in the dark for python tweaks

Posted: **2007-05-24 05:39**

Raniak wrote:Yeah, but they still last 5 seconds with prone spamming(that's how it's called, right?) everywhere.

If somebody is instaproning, then your is cqb and there is not much posibilities for firefights anyway. Medium and longe range firefight's exist big time in .6 as the engaging distances and maps have become bigger.

Posted: **2007-05-24 10:48**

bosco wrote:I first engage with my rifle's noobtube, prone diving and instakilling them.

I let my aimbot do all the work.

...mongol...

Posted: **2007-05-24 13:10**

0.6 fire fights are more intense, trust me. The new sounds and engagment ranges make the fire fights great fun. The fact that the enemy engages you at much longer ranges make it harder to figure out where the shots are coming from. It has helped with supression and lengthend the fire fight time

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