Project Reality Forums

[R-DEV]RikiRude wrote:Yes, I don't like SL spawning. It's too gamey compared to just having RPs your spawn point.

For a simple look at it here's what it's broken down to.

You are approaching an enemy CP. Your squad places a RP which has to be what, 100 meters away from the CP or something like that. Your squad gets on the flag and it starts going down. Enemy attacks trying to clear you guys out. Now here's the kicker.

A: With SL spawning in effect, the SL goes inside a locker room building or something, and as the attackers try to clear it out guys just keep spawning and coming out of nowhere. Same thing for the guys trying to cap the flag, enemies keep coming or maybe even spawning right in front of you. LAME!

B: With out SL spawning, the guys trying to cap the flag are killed, except the SL. The attackers know that they faced a full squad, and they know they dropped 5 guys, so they know there was one more left, and they can be expecting 5 in a little while.

I don't know about you, but I like situation B alot more, and it seems more realistic to me. Plus spawning at your RP gives you a chance to get a limited kit. It promotes variety in your squad instead of just having riflemen and medics spawn in the midst of combat.

Solution is easy : you see the guy with a huge rucksack - shoot him in the head . When clearing building\capturing flag etc. I always check for enemy squad leader kit . If he's dead - problem solved . Though I think sq members should not be alowed to spawn in sq leader if he doesn't have officer kit . That would make sence .

voted no, but only because i think the rally point is too hard to do at this point in time. 4 people is rough to get together. thats 2/3 of the squad. lower it to 1/2 and my vote would be yes.

Promotes teamwork and not lone wolfing, while your SL drops a RP somewhere ^^

If SL spawning were removed, the durability of rally points should be drastically increased, maybe with a system that lets you know if they are under attack so that you can make a decision to fall back.

Requiring 3 members (2 + SL) to put it down would also be nice, since there are vehicles with only 3 seats.

indigo|blade wrote:Wolfe, no one called you a name bud.

You just did, bud. And there was big guy, chief, childish... Maybe it's your style but it comes across as derogatory and since you insist on the namecalling this will be my last response to you directly.

indigo|blade wrote:Listen, all of these "unrealistic" arguments have been shot to hell by some other guy in that other thread. By the end of that line of thinking it gets you to "one death = game over". None of us want that so stop claiming "Realism".

The mod is named "Project Reality", so reality has everything to do with it. Nearly every element in the game is based upon it within the spirit of gameplay. It's the driving force of the mod, so it will continue to be claimed as long as the mod has the same name.

indigo|blade wrote:You claim to want strategy, but you think SL spawning as a feature and resource is confined to its distance from the RP? That's funny. We regularly attack a CP from at least 2 different directions, one from *relatively* the RP position, and one from *relatively* the SL's position. That's sound strategy in my book.

Strategy has two different meanings. There is strategy based on realism, and there is strategy based on whatever the game mechanics will allow.

For example, basecamping is a strategy and so is hiding in a bunker surrounded by the enemy as an infinite number of troops stream out of the squad leader. Both exist in the game and can be considered a strategy, but neither is based in realism. It makes no sense to have the ability to spawn infinite numbers of reinforcements within a confined space, surrounded by the enemy, with no means of resupply. The idea is completely ridiculous.

Using your example, I have no problem with attacking from multiple directions, but I do have a problem when the source of the attacks are infinite numbers of troops behind enemy lines. It's not a "realistic" strategy. If you go behind enemy lines, you should be on your own. No reinforcements, so you better not die.

indigo|blade wrote:Removing the SL spawn will not all of the sudden make everyone fear dying in a computer game. That won't ever happen.

Increasing the penalty for dying, whether through time or distance, will always make players think twice about how they attack if they don't want to pay that penalty.

indigo|blade wrote:I have NEVER stated that I wanted to leave SL spawning in because I wanted to rush 'n kill or run 'n gun or whatever the hell you want to call it. Quote me or whoever else it was where you took this from big guy.

You asked for it...

• indigo|blade wrote:One more point I'd like to make about the positive effect of SL spawning: ...Faster games.

  Waaah_Wah wrote:Removing the SL spawn will break the teamplay coz then if a LM gets shot he will have to walk from rally/main and believe me, not many ppl would wait for him.

  zeidmaan wrote:A definite NO. one guy gets killed - wait 30+ sec for him to spawn - wait 30+ sec for him to catch up. Also no more "delaying spawn" at the beginning

  2ACR>Shaw wrote:All i can say is kill FASTER then you wont have this problem...

It is interesting that your reason for keeping the SL spawn is similar to the others. Impatience. Those who voted "no" don't want to wait. They want to spawn in. Fast. Quick. Go. That's exactly what is wrong with the game. It's too fast, too gamey, too zergy. I respect your desire to have the game play that way, but of the devs that have chimed in on this issue, they disagree with you and so do I.

indigo|blade wrote:You put all of us in one boat that most of us don't belong on, and I'm calling you on it.

Read the "no" posts. Most say the same thing.. they don't want to wait for their squad leader or their squad mates. Don't want to wait for....? The action. I stand by my statement that it seems that most "no" voters just want to get in the action asap and sl spawns are the fastest way to do it.

indigo|blade wrote:In my experience the teamplay is better than ever in v0.6, I suggest you play in the tournament here or OpReal or join an active group playing PR. It's usually the folks you play with that determine your enjoyment!

And that's exactly the point. As is, the game relies too heavily on the decisions of a few players to determine the experience of many. Get a bad commander, all goes to hell. Get a rogue squad, and attacking/defending becomes far more difficult. By altering the game mechanics, including spawn locations, you can strongly guide all players towards team oriented objectives without relying on so heavily a few good people to do it for everyone.

indigo|blade wrote:Here, I'll iron out the strongest point for voting No: It will be infinately harder to manage the individual squads.

People act like squads and their team will be scattered everywhere. Well, if they continue using run'n gun tactics, that will be true. Then again, that is exactly the reason behind removing the sl spawn, to help minimize those tactics, since they are not realistic; the essence of the mod.

No as SL spawn encourages more teamwork.

When is poping out of someone's *** teamwork??

Please, explain how the SL spawn promotes teamwork

Outlawz wrote:Please, explain how the SL spawn promotes teamwork

My best guess is that without SL spawns, your squad will be scattered around when someone dies. Some will be at the squad leader, while others are back at the rally point. By keeping the SL spawn, it allows an easy way for everyone to stay near the squad leader. Players are scattered all around anyway, so it's not a strong argument imo.

SL spawn is a lazy way of keeping your squad together. Requires no skill other than hiding. It also has the unfortunate side effect of zergy and rambo-style gameplay which I think makes gameplay worse, not better... unless.. people like zergs, but they're crunchy and a bit sour... kinda purpleish too... gotta have em with salt.

This is the crux of the argument from both sides and comes down to whether nor not you favor realism over gameplay or gameplay over realism. Personally, on this issue, I prefer realism. Squad leaders should be leaders. Leading. Not back-room incubation chambers.

Outlawz wrote: Please, explain how the SL spawn promotes teamwork

It is an easy way for people to stay with their squad leader and without it many of those people who would have spawned with their squad instead will spawn at the main and just grab a vehicle or something. It is very simple but effective. I would rather not see this important part of the game cut out for the sake of realism.

It is an easy way for people to stay with their squad leader and without it many of those people who would have spawned with their squad instead will spawn at the main and just grab a vehicle or something. It is very simple but effective. I would rather not see this important part of the game cut out for the sake of realism.

Since when do people pop up behind the SL in the middle of a firefight IRL?!
And they should actually start working together, not being solo SFs driving a Humvee away by themselves.
If they can't stick together in the first place, then how does the SL spawn promote this? DOESNT.
They just know, they got a guy with a big number on his head, which they can pop out of, when dead and go fight again, since they can always respawn on that lil green dot.

The poll question is a bit flawed I think, since it's too easy to answer "no" by not looking at the spawn and travel system as a whole. It may be more accurate to ask :

"Should the ability for enemies to spawn on your flag be removed?"

I'd bet the majority of the responses would be yes.

Wolfe wrote: "Should the ability for enemies to spawn on your flag be removed?"

I'd bet the majority of the responses would be yes instead of no.

Damn straight! It's 20 minutes of walking, on my own, from main, only to get sniped and have to go straight back to main that I have a problem with. Spawning on the flag is just cheap, though. If it was set up so you could only spawn on SL if he is more than 100m from an enemy flag, and more than 50m from a flag with a defence marker, I'd be happy.

Even more so if this limit only applied to ACTIVE flags, as that means on maps where the CPs are all very densely packed (IE there's no-where to put a rally) - you'd still be able to spawn in away from flags currently under contention.

Hmm, now I say that - I wonder if the RP rule could be changed so that RPs only have to be > 100m from mainbases and the active flag, and auto-disappear if they are in range of a flag that turns into an active one. That would solve the problem of densely-packed flags, and thus eliminate my one of my main issues with removing SL spawning.

^^^^ Exactly ^^^^

If we remove the SL spawn, I propose that we remove the 100m requirement for setting up Rally Points. You can have them inside the flag radius which allows you to spawn on the flag, but you risk the chance of having it blow up. Or you can hide it and make the trip back to the flag.

Also if possible, have that suggestion where a squad leader with an officer kit can request a squad vehicle to spawn in much like the Commander's Support Truck. But only allow it near a CP or something. Solves the "omg we are too far away from battle" situation.

No - will end up in squads being scattered across the map and less effort will probably be made to form up

Outlawz wrote:Since when do people pop up behind the SL in the middle of a firefight IRL?!
And they should actually start working together, not being solo SFs driving a Humvee away by themselves.
If they can't stick together in the first place, then how does the SL spawn promote this? DOESNT.
They just know, they got a guy with a big number on his head, which they can pop out of, when dead and go fight again, since they can always respawn on that lil green dot.

Since when do people respawn at their base IRL?! How do you think removing a feature that allows squads to stick together without much trouble would promote teamwork? It would hurt teamwork and make the game less fun.

I have a question. Which is more fun?

1. Attacking a flag by hiding your squad leader on the flag area, then spawning waves of reinforcements from point blank range, hoping that in the process of crazed shooting to kill their spawn leader as quickly as possible to prevent their reinfocements from spawning directly next to yours.
2. Attacking a flag from a staging point 100 meters out, analyzing their defenses, creeping forward then executing a coordinated attack designed to stun, confuse, then kill the enemy, knowing that for each enemy killed, it is one less you have to worry about spawning next to you 30 seconds later. The more skillful the attack, the better chance you have at survival and gaining control of the flag, as you prepare for a counter attack 100 meters away from the other direction.

Wolfe wrote:I have a question. Which is more fun?

1. Attacking a flag by hiding your squad leader on the flag area, then spawning waves of reinforcements from point blank range, hoping that in the process of crazed shooting to kill their spawn leader as quickly as possible to prevent their reinfocements from spawning directly next to yours.
2. Attacking a flag from a staging point 100 meters out, analyzing their defenses, creeping forward then executing a coordinated attack designed to stun, confuse, then kill the enemy, knowing that for each enemy killed, it is one less you have to worry about spawning next to you 30 seconds later. The more skillful the attack, the better chance you have at survival and gaining control of the flag, as you prepare for a counter attack 100 meters away from the other direction.

Heh, that is a real "when did you stop beating your wife?" style poser.

Firstly, you don't have to "kill their spawn leader as quickly as possible", they won't spawn on him until you kill them. You've got 30 seconds from killing the first one until you have to kill the SL, and even if you don't get the SL within those 30 seconds, his squadmate(s) will spawn out in the open, usually standing bolt-upright, with no idea which way they are facing, weapons on semi. They're going straight back to hell, making it closer to a MINUTE in which to kill the SL. Generally, if you've not got the SL within 30 seconds, it's because you're dead anyway, in which case where they spawn is immaterial, because it won't be right next to you. Especially if the SL really is at "point blank" distance, there should be no time for them to spawn, much less spawn and have a chance to switch weapon to full auto, take aim and start shooting.

Secondly, people will be "attacking from a staging point 100m out" which they will spawn on "in waves of crazed shooting and running", STILL hoping to get enemy players as quickly as possible so that they might survive long enough to get on the flag. The only difference is that instead of spawners getting turkey-shot before they can orientate themselves in the middle of a street, they get turkey-shot before they can orientate themselves next to a camped rally point, and then have a massive walk due for them after the first minute and a half of consta-rape when they have to slink back from the nearest FB or main.

Oh, and rally-point camping will be much more rewarding.

Completely missed the point. :d uh:

See it in this way. In real life, SL is near a enemy CP, half his squad has been taken down. He calls for more men near his location to be dropped down for his rescue. If a player feels that he has a chance completing the task with his life secure he should have the opportunity to engage, if he feels that enemy squads are to strong he and his other teammates can regroup in RP or whereever they want.
It's up to the players. SL spawn is not the problem.