Project Reality Forums

'[T wrote:BludShoT;578005']lol, all the stuff people are saying badly about Karkand... Street had those issues and worse, and yet it was deemed good enough for PR until recently. Meanwhile you have a map like Sunset City that is still in PR (and I'm glad), and are you saying that Sunset City is really all that different from Karkand?

And you're complaining about the vBF2 gameplay... Do you think that if Karkand was loaded in PR the gameplay would magically change and not be PR anymore? All of a sudden you could put claymores everywhere... And Okita, you make the silly stretch to say that it would be illegal to have Karkand just to support your ideas about it, but it would be no different than having Gulf of Oman or Zatar which are still in PR, and certainly no different than having .. um... KARKAND which used to be in PR lol.

The ONLY reason why a mapper would do a Karkand for PR is because guys, it's WAY, WAY, *WAY* easier to do Karkand for PR than it is to make a brand new map. If it was just as hard to do a Karkand for PR as it was to make a new map then I would definitely say there is NO point in doing it - but it's not.

I'd like to see Karkand in PR, but I don't really care that much about it - I just think those who are being so against it are being silly and that their reasons for not wanting it are kind of crazy. I feel like making Karkand for PR just to annoy you guys hahahaha...

1. Its not a stretch to say you can't edit Karkand. I never said i was certain, but I DO recall word being sent out by EA prohibiting it (dont know the extent of it) SO don't try to call me out on that.
*edit* Found the article, and I was incorrect:

- You can only use use Battlefield 2142 content in Battlefield 2142 and the same applies for Battlefield 2. This includes maps, sounds, models and so on. So for example putting the Battlefield 2 map Zatar Wetlands into Battlefield 2142 would run counter to this rule. Recreating a map "inspired" by Zatar Wetlands in Battlefield 2142 would be fine as long as all the models, textures and terrain are new or use Battlefield 2142 assets.

2. I, myself, never claimed the gameplay was my biggest concern

3. I, also, am horrified at the mention of Street and wonder about its inclusion to this very day

4. There's a difference in DOING a karkand for PR and just putting Karkand in PR. I think that needs clarification in EVERYONES posts. I dont want Karkand, as it is, in PR, but nor do I want a map NAMED Karkand, just to get your jollies.

5. There is no point 5

6. I think anyone who is against Karkand seems to have very good reasons, namely WHY THE HELL WOULD WE WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING FROM VANILLA TO GET FANS? Sure, the map is ok, but to the ones saying PR needs to make a karkand to get more players is absolutely ridiculous.

remeber the simpl;ifyed realism scale for city maps (im gonna get a roasting for this i bet)

Realistic
Flight sim X london
(falluja i dunno ow o spl)
Al basrah
Sunset city
Street
Warlord (if there wasnt SAS)
Mastuar City
Karkand
Medal of honor citymaps
Pong
UnRealistic

I just don't understand all the hatred for Karkand. I hate vBF2 as much as anyone on here, and that is why I stopped playing and started with PR. This mod takes away everything about Karkand that made it vanilla and noobish (nade whoring, claymores etc....) I have no doubt it could be audited and tweaked for PR that would have amazing firefights, flanking strategies, bloody battles to control bridge and river etc.. as well. Why not put the map in along with others that have been removed. Everyone has thier own opinion on maps and playability, and why not cater to all those people who play here. I dont like Fools Road or Quinling, but I'm not gonna bash those maps just because I dont like to play them, thier are alot of people who do play them and enjoy the hell out of it.
What is the downside to having a wide variety of maps for PR? If you dont like Karkand, then dont play it... If you dont like Fools Road, then dont play it, but dont critisize and bash those who love to play a certain map. Some people love infantry/urban maps and other prefer Armor and Air.
If it is a memory issue with keeping alot of maps in a release, then I suggest deleting some porn to make room for some kick *** maps to hopefully keep everone happy.
I look at it this way, If someone wanted to make a map where it was nothing but dudes running around in leopard skin speedos throwing water balloons at each other, then fine with me, I wouldnt play it but if you did, then have fun soaking each other....
I think we can all at least agree on one thing, a great urban/infantry/city map would be awesome for everyone, no matter what the name of it is...

I think the issue is that Karkand personifies all that was wrong with vanilla. It was the map of choice for stat padders and 24/7 servers. It was nothing but an armor, claymore, bunny hopping, dolphin diving whorefest that most of us are happy to put behind us.

LeadMagnet wrote:I think the issue is that Karkand personifies all that was wrong with vanilla. It was the map of choice for stat padders and 24/7 servers. It was nothing but an armor, claymore, bunny hopping, dolphin diving whorefest that most of us are happy to put behind us.

You Issues with Karkand..

1-- ARMOR (It can easily be Inf. only)
2-- CLAYMORE (There are NO Claymore in PR)
3-- BUNNY HOPPING (There is NO bunny hopping in PR)
4-- DOLPHIN DIVING (There is NO dolphin diving in PR)

:d uh:

He's just saying, as many have been, that it has a bd taste and really, imho, shouldnt be brought back when it can easily be replaced by better urban maps. Jesus, its not heaven, its karkand, take it easy, there are billions of ways to make an urban map and besides, the statics are all the same anyway

[R-CON]OkitaMakoto wrote: it shouldnt be brought back when it can easily be replaced by better urban maps. Jesus, its not heaven, its karkand, take it easy, there are billions of ways to make an urban map and besides, the statics are all the same anyway

Then why not bring the map back into PR until we can get some kick *** new Urban/City maps? I understand that Karkand has vBF2 written all over it, but those very things that make it a spam fest are completely removed in PR. I know we have a couple of maps in the works that will be in this genre of battle maps, but until we get those, there are none on v0.7... Maybe by adding this map, it will take the noobs away from Al Basrah... played that map lately....trust me when I say, the noobs are already here and adding Karkand isnt gonna hurt PR in the least. Just my opinion, and I guess you either love Karkand or hate it...

[R-CON]OkitaMakoto wrote:SO don't try to call me out on that

Well I am calling you out for it, because Zatar and Oman are in PR. But anyways, moving on, this thread is really inspiring me to try using the bf2 map editor again

The vanilla maps in PR don't feel... PR-ish. Sure they're a LOT better than what they were in vanilla, but still.. it doesn't feel right.

PR Devs aren't going to make a new Karkand map. Period.

You want close quarter combat in an urban environment? Please, go make your own "Karkand", however you want it. Impress us!

Regarding "Street". It was a lousy map. Once included as an extraction map. Extraction didn't make a next version in PR, but the map was still there. It's a 16 players map (max), but was played on 64p servers, something the map was never ever intended for. Putting the vanilla Karkand in PR, will feel like Street. Some will like it, many won't.

Hi, new PR player here, just throwing in my two eurocents.

I've only recently come back to playing bf2, but I did buy it and play it back when it came out. My favorite map at the time was, surprise surprise, Karkand
The thing is, bf2 was a new game and grenade spamming, claymore spewing, bunny hopping and dolphing diving were not that common or mostly didn't happen at all and I found it really enjoyable at the time. And I find myself enjoying urban warfare more than armored combat in games like these. Now that I've started playing again, I suddenly found myself dying all the time. Grenades flying all over the place, every corner you take there's a claymore waiting for you, I start shooting at someone and he starts jumping around as if on a pogo stick... I stuck with it, because bf2 was still one of the few games I have and enjoy and gradually got the hang of it (though I never took part in the bunny hopping and diving as if an ocean was near).

I got all the unlocks I wanted and played Karkand every time I ran bf2. Partly because it remained my favorite map and mostly because it's quite difficult finding a vanilla server that's not Karkand 24/7 infantry only. And then I says to myself I says, I have the unlocks, the spamfest that is Karkand is getting old and gives me a headache, let's look for a mod, there's gotta be something out there! The first mod I checked out was PR. And the rest is history. No wait, present? Something?

Anyhoo, in all my time playing bf2 as of late, there was only one game I played in which there was any teamplay and they even used voip! Sadly, that was the last time. The first round of PR I joined was full of "Ledenko, do this. Do that. No don't do that! ...what are you doing?" So I read the manual, went back, started learning and didn't leave since.
Ok, uhh, that's a bit offtopic, should it be in the Hello! section?

Anyway, I don't think Karkand would work especially well in PR, in comparison to the city maps for PR, Karkand seems uninspired now that I look at it. Not to mention small and all that jazz. It lacks the detail that went into the maps in PR. Maybe if it was heavily modified, but even then, how long would it take for the chat to erupt with "NADE SPAM!"
And I have to agree with the people saying why attract new players with Karkand? It is my opinion that the mod should attract people that look for realism, tactical gameplay and teamwork in a game rather than a map they know inside and out and possibly use all the tactics the PR people hate so much.

Tannhauser wrote:
Why would it be different than vBF2?
-No more claymore mines
-No more uberl33tz spec ops class, now limited
-Longer respawn times = less fragging
-No bounds = Less frags in the streets, more RPs from afar
-No more run and gun/instaproneheadshot because of new aiming system
-No more rocket spamming (Light AT limited)
-No more fast respawn on SL/Flag : Spawn only on RP, Main, FB/B
-No more tons of ubersnip3rz (Sniper kit limited)
-No more ... Post too long? lol

This guys post deserved to be quoted. It basically ruins every argument about Karkand returning us to vBF2 styly gameplay.

I would love a great Urban City map or 2 introduced to the game. Karkand, for ease, is well designed and if you remove the red zones I gaurantee it would be awesome.

If your worried about it becoming a frag fest in the main street then take your squad wide and avoid the city completely...


And just quickly, many many people liked Street - even just for the fact that it provided a nice 20-30 minute break in a servers map rotation from intense tactical thinking and RP placing headaches. Was it realistic? I assume so, I can see that being very close to what fighting would be like in the streets of Iraq/Mogadishu/wherever.

monatu wrote:It basically ruins every argument about Karkand returning us to vBF2 styly gameplay.

so uh, Danqing Oilfields its a Vanilla map... so we come back to vBF2 stile

torenico wrote:so uh, Danqing Oilfields its a Vanilla map... so we come back to vBF2 stile

The whole point is the dif. between Karkand and every other map, or mostly every other map out there. Karkand [similar to street, which I only saw like one server run on a regular basis, that I visited at least] is a funnel of action down one path which, in my opinion, is just lame and meant for getting action shoved down your throat to get points fast. We wouldnt "come back to vbf2 style", we'd almost be forced into it. Sure we could avoid the city and loop around, but then whats the point of the city save for holding the CP's? It serves vbf2 very well. Daqing Oilfields is vastly different and is actually a good map, imho. Open terrain, more than one route, etc.

I'm done doing this bickering back and forth, because, I doubt anyone's gonna change and I think I've posted too much in here compared to how much I'm concerned about it Those who want it still want it, and those who cringe at the idea still cringe

Okita

[R-CON]OkitaMakoto wrote:Karkand is a funnel of action down one path which, in my opinion, is just lame and meant for getting action shoved down your throat to get points fast.

Hmmm, funnel the enemy to one point... where have I read that before... oh, wait, here it is, in my USMC Handbook for Marines. That's right, its a common tactic to force a confrontation, especially for outgunned opponents, where superior numbers do not mean as much as superior tactics (seen the movie 300?). Its a place where realistically and enemy would choose to bring you to battle.

But you're right, there's no sense in arguing this any more, we're up to 8 pages and have yet to draw the attention of a single member of the PR Dev team.

Liquid_Cow wrote:Hmmm, funnel the enemy to one point... where have I read that before... oh, wait, here it is, in my USMC Handbook for Marines. That's right, its a common tactic to force a confrontation, especially for outgunned opponents, where superior numbers do not mean as much as superior tactics (seen the movie 300?). Its a place where realistically and enemy would choose to bring you to battle.

But you're right, there's no sense in arguing this any more, we're up to 8 pages and have yet to draw the attention of a single member of the PR Dev team.

OK, so Im not done. Theres a BIG difference between a marine funneling enemies into a cone of fire, and a city doing that itself by having 1(one) street. Think about it...

Its not about tactics, its about the initial setup of the map. You think Im really that oblivious to something like that? You dont need to be a marine to see the benefit of funneling an enemy...

Jonny wrote:Hold it you lot.

Remove every flag apart from the first, last and one in the middle of the city then play it without the redzone.

So uh, I'm not entirely for karkand in PR, (although I wouldn't mind) but where is this street your referring to if it had the flags removed as indicated.

Funnel the enemy on one point?

Water = Boats, boats + no red zone = other way around.

Insurgency = Not just one way around, there's a whole bunch of random locations to find. Would fit Insurgency as an Infantry+FAV/LAV 32 players map. Imagine the million possible ambushes there? And the need for coordinated squadplaying to be able to get inside the city?

Guys, it's not happening.

Either make a map that has the CQB intensity of Karkland in a PR-friendly style, or play some of the excellent maps in PR that have CQB combat.

But Kark ain't coming back.

[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:Guys, it's not happening.

Either make a map that has the CQB intensity of Karkland in a PR-friendly style, or play some of the excellent maps in PR that have CQB combat.

But Kark ain't coming back.

This gets at the heart of thw whole Karkand debate Masaq, you say make a map that has the CQB intensity of Karkand in a PR friendly syle. Well, that is the problem, what is PR friendly? It seems to me, that PR friendly means huge maps where everyone is so spread out, that CQB intensity is almost non-existant now. I think that alot of us are looking for that intensity of battle that is now lacking in the current PR maps and Karkand was the best map for that style of combat and intensity. I want realism as much as anybody, but I also and alot others as well, want to have fun and intense battles.

i remember kark in .2 with 7 of us playing and me on support helping out an AT guy