Remove squad rally points?

[ReaperMAC]

I know this was directed at Skeletor, but you people need to get off this "You want realism, go join the Army" BS. I know there are people here serving in the Armed Forces, and I myself have already enlisted within the USMC (Going 0311, Infantry).

That's great, you aren't the only 0311 in the world, but if you bothered reading his post, he wanted a 100% absolute realism game (ie: 32 tickets, 32 people, 1 death, no revives, ammo bags, etc) and I just pointed out that it was provided in the military.

Also like I said earlier, it's a pain to have to chase a squad across the dang map because they keep setting up a new rally point. Often times, you can spend over a dozen minutes fighting some squad out in the forest, having to constantly find and destroy their rally point.

Oh, so it's too hard for you and you want to remove the rallies to make it "easier?" *sigh* ??:

[coolhand]

No way, keep the rallies please.

It's a good idea, but can make the gameplay suck! PR has huge maps now. Bunker and FB placement points are limited and it's hard enough getting a volunteer Commander, let alone find a good Commander. I would hate having to depend on badly placed Bunker and FBs by a not-so-good commander as a spawn and placing my team's chances of winning on 1 person.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I personally want to see PR become a much more slower paced, well thought out, strategic game.

You can't do that with an engine that was never designed for such gameplay. And come on, your argument doesn't even make sense because RPs require 100M away from the flag, but if Firebases or Bunkers are allowed, those can be placed ontop of a flag or 60M away and require much, much more firepower to destroy them than 2 swips of a knife. If you cannot take out a rallypoint, than you must not be playing with a squad that has your back or you are doing something wrong. Sorry, but everything cannot be spoon fed to the player. If you want realism, of course level of differculty is going to come along with it like it is now.

[LordSquiffy]

;609729']Dummies.

3) No one likes to drive back and forth. If you want to drive, sign up for the military or a military contractor and go drive. We're playing a video game here where we want to be involved in the combat. This is not checkers or pac-man, it's a first person shooter with a realistic twist. There's no reason why driving forces to the front cannot be simulated by a rally point that the troops get dropped off at.

Thankyou Artnez !!!! point very well made. As much as I enjoy the higher level of realism in PR compared to BFV, I'm here to have fun....thats fun. Don't get me wrong everyone, I completely respect your views and wishes to see PR become a complete combat simulator in as true a sense as possibe, but the consequence of such a development would be to decimate the numbers on servers. People just won't play the game if the "realism" element takes over from the "fun" element. Sorry if I'm going off topic here, but interestingly, the topic in this thread is changing as it evolves. I think the Devs have done a fantastic job in taking an already fun (but sometimes frustrating) game and developed it into something quite special. However, its a game people....long may realism take second place to enjoyment.

[Sadist_Cain]

Oh, so it's too hard for you and you want to remove the rallies to make it "easier?" *sigh* ??:

Where the hell did he ever say that? was it "too hard" having a whole squad spawn on a squadleader hiding in a hole on the flag hence why it was removed? NO! it was F-ing unrealistic and spoiled gameplay by making the whole thing about hunting for 1 man to kill him to stop wave after wave of Insta-squad respawning

Same as how right now the game is about defending a flag and then as soon as you come under attack jumping off of it to go find and stab a rally (which really isn't too hard btw, in fact nothing is easier than following a line of spawners back to camp) whilest the enemy recaps the falg, you set up a rally point and OHHH JOY the whole fecking cycle starts off all over again
It's not hard it's bloody boring

RP's do signify reinforcements etc in a good way BUT people die and just come running in alone from them that's not realistic, aswell as being able to pop back up in 30 seconds but more so it's the ease of which you can just **** out rally points all over the place

Make's there being not a lot of point in fighting the enemy but more so about fighting the rally points

[Antonious_Bloc]

No.

[Sundance Kid]

this is the issue i've been afraid of..i think rallypoints shall not be removed.it ruins the gameplay pretty badly.I think respawnining at the rallypoints is as unrealistic as the respawning itself.

[Tartantyco]

Thankyou Artnez !!!! point very well made. As much as I enjoy the higher level of realism in PR compared to BFV, I'm here to have fun....thats fun.

-I want to have fun as well... Playing a game that emphasizes realism! I just don't get this, it's in the mod title! What is it you don't get? I play this mod because I wanted to have a realistic experience, because that would be fun. I didn't go "Oh, a mod about realistic warfare. I wonder if it's fun." I went "A mod that emphasizes realism. That would be fun." Do you see the difference?

Don't get me wrong everyone, I completely respect your views and wishes to see PR become a complete combat simulator in as true a sense as possibe, but the consequence of such a development would be to decimate the numbers on servers.

-I'd think the number would decline, yes. We'd lose all the morons.

People just won't play the game if the "realism" element takes over from the "fun" element. Sorry if I'm going off topic here, but interestingly, the topic in this thread is changing as it evolves. I think the Devs have done a fantastic job in taking an already fun (but sometimes frustrating) game and developed it into something quite special. However, its a game people....long may realism take second place to enjoyment.

-When I first started playing this mod there was such an abundance of spawn points and every time the idea of removing any of them was forwarded it was met with skepticism and hostility. Now only the main spawn, rally spawn and asset spawn are left and the mod is more popular than ever. Of course, you can't just remove the rally spawn and that's it, you have to make other changes as well. I'm not proposing that you should have to spawn at the main everytime you die, that isn't realistic considering what this mod aims to accomplish. What I'm suggesting is that spawn points should be limited and that you have to use these spawn points carefully, constantly, and that they are given some value in themselves, value worthy of defense.

[101 bassdrive]

the solution would be so simple..
-limit the spawns a RP has to RL size of squads or bit more ( 8-12 RL or maybe up to 20 or so)
-make the spawns a RP has refill at support trucks, apc's and transport helo ( standing for designated transportation vehicles thus theoretical reinforcement)
-renew the option for SL to set RP's by standing next to support trucks, apc's and transport helo
( starts off with 2, SL death doesnt reset counter)

[Antonious_Bloc]

No.

[Artnez[US]]

RP's do signify reinforcements etc in a good way BUT people die and just come running in alone from them that's not realistic, aswell as being able to pop back up in 30 seconds but more so it's the ease of which you can just **** out rally points all over the place

This seems to be your biggest gripe with rally points.

You don't like to fight people "every 30 seconds".

First of all, you're a liar. Let's make that clear. You know as well as I do that in PR people do not "pop back up in 30 seconds". It takes time to spawn, request your kit, and move 100 meters (at least). This increases the time to usually a few minutes. Also most players don't run like chickens with their heads cut off. Maybe you experienced that a few times as we all have, but let's not generalize. When there are multiple rally points, this time changes of course but that is because you're being attacked by multiple forces.

Secondly, please don't disregard my long posts and jump at every person who doesn't give you an elaborate response so you can make it seem like you're making a point.

Rally points are realistic because they signify a place where forces rally together. This is very realistic and done in real life. If troops are attacking a city, they will set up a casualty collection location, ammo resupply location, and a general fallback position. From this position they will launch their attack. Very realistic.

Thirdly, it is completely unrealistic to remove rally points because then battles will be fought 6v6. Think about it... stop arguing with me internally and think... if you always spawn at main base with your squad and jump into a vehicle transport (unrealistic - transports have dedicated drivers) and go to a control point -- you will be attacking that control point with only 6 foot soldiers. Your squad will always be attacking on its own.

6 soldiers cannot attack a village. It's unrealistic.

And thus, we have rally points. Rally points make a squad of 6 into an entire infantry platoon. They now attack and reinforce each other in waves (respawns). That is the most realistic possible way to do this within the constraints of the BF2 engine.

Fourthly, please consider that not everyone wants to run around with their thumb up their butt. I know you enjoy your thumb and you enjoy your butt, but we don't. Some of us have kids, wives, fiances, jobs and more. As it is, we have very little time to spend playing the game anyway (just last night my fiancee got pissed that I stayed up an hour late playing PR). With these ridiculous changes that you guys propose (ie: removing rally points and having more transports), the game will end up being a boring and disorganized mess.

Squads cannot communicate with one another and if there's no commander squads will have to attack cities on their own. To work together, they'll have to type in team chat like crazy -- very unrealistic.

And lastly, before you start typing next time berating some people for not understanding the concept of a reality mod, please remember that modding is not easy.

Gameplay adjustments aren't made because "hey, that makes sense -- people in real life drive to the front, in-game they should drive to the front" - no... they are made while considering how it will affect other things in the game.

You see?

P.S.: Only reason I'm even discussing this with you is to hopefully change your mind about what PR really is which will help you be a productive member in the game.

The Devs will never remove rally points until a feasible alternative is presented. Removing rally points would basically be a step back, which wouldn't make a lot of sense would it?

[Artnez[US]]

Woops, with all of that typing I almost forgot.There's one other big advantage to rally points.

They give the squad consistent objectives.

If there were no rallies, you would say "ok move 3000 meters to this mountain and we'll attack from there".

With rallies, you would say "ok move 3000 meters to this mountain and we'll place some rally points on the way. then we'll place a rally at the mountain."

It also makes tactical retreats make some sense. If your squad is being overrun by 20 soldiers and there is only 3 of you left (including squad leader) -- there's a reason to fallback. You would say "ok team lets fall back about 200 meters and set a rally point so we can put up a defense".

If there were no rallies, you wouldn't care about being killed because you would want to spawn back at the main base with the rest of your team.

So if the 20 guys didnt overrun you completely, you'd have 2 guys in D2 and 4 guys at main base. Then you would need a mission to regroup! It would be very cumbersome.

[Human Shield]

Or you just make them not unlimited but instead require a supply line

[Antonious_Bloc]

Or you just make them not unlimited but instead require a supply line

Except that was a dumb idea too. Why would a bunker magically de-construct itself if there wasn't a truck nearby?



You people have to realize that there are only 32 people on a team max. You can't have 20 people on the team moving everyone else around for one, and for two, those 32 people have to represent a whole lot more people.

Hence, respawns and rallies.

[ReaperMAC]

Where the hell did he ever say that?

The whole "it's annoying; it's boring; it's hard" are pretty much in the same group. Hence: "It's annoying that we have to wait 30 seconds after we die, lets change it," etc. etc.

Though, unless it has to do with a bug (which a rally point isn't) then it is pretty much implied.

It's not hard it's bloody boring

Read above

RP's do signify reinforcements etc in a good way BUT people die and just come running in alone from them that's not realistic, aswell as being able to pop back up in 30 seconds but more so it's the ease of which you can just **** out rally points all over the place

You can't control people, you just can't. You can't prevent people from solo-tanking, but you can give them disadvantages. Spawning after 30 seconds and immediately running into the fray gives them a disadvantage, mainly in numbers. If you can't kill 1 guy with your entire squad, you are definately doing something wrong.

P.S. I like how you disregarded all of Artnez's posts when he makes a point that you... never rebuttal.

[asianator365]

PLEASE GOD NO!!! If you remove the squad rallies, you need to implement something else to make up for it. Otherwise battles will go on for hours as the vehicles are quickly destroyed at the beginning of rounds and people are forced to walk for 15 minutes to reach a flag, only to be destroyed by one of the few remaining pieces of armor.

[Human Shield]

Its too bad the "spawn on squad leader" system is probably impossible to hack.

One idea would be closer to an RTS game. Whenever any member of your squad gets near your rally or gets into a vehicle the rest of the squad can re-enforce in (squad leaders taking more time). Or else you can only spawn at a base. So if all members of the squad die, the rally is worthless, they have to have someone "fallback" to the rally to get back in. Add a T menu button that has them work as a squad leader to spawn on if they are in the right area. Maybe have it remove the rally when used so each rally is a one-time thing, where if the officer dies he will want two to retreat back to the rally so they can get another one up.

Except that was a dumb idea too. Why would a bunker magically de-construct itself if there wasn't a truck nearby?

Why would it magically create unlimited troops? It doesn't have to de-construct it just has to stop respawning troops without a fresh supply truck. People rarely use the bunker as cover, it is mostly a big rally point anyone can use (and when a squad disbands the rally point magically de-constructs).

You people have to realize that there are only 32 people on a team max. You can't have 20 people on the team moving everyone else around for one, and for two, those 32 people have to represent a whole lot more people.

Hence, respawns and rallies.

More transport vehicles and faster respawn time after death would create the same effect.

[Rudd]

;610508']
Rally points are realistic because they signify a place where forces rally together. This is very realistic and done in real life. If troops are attacking a city, they will set up a casualty collection location, ammo resupply location, and a general fallback position. From this position they will launch their attack. Very realistic.

P.S.: Only reason I'm even discussing this with you is to hopefully change your mind about what PR really is which will help you be a productive member in the game.

Agree that engine limitations make the RP system teh only practical system. If we had 128 servers with no RPs we could probably make it work with only commanders assets and standard spawn points. But alas, thats a non-starter

On teh P.S note, I hope you were not refering specifically to cain, cuz he's one of the best players you'll find around here.

But I would like to see some sort of nerf, such as has to be 100m from a vehicle (any vehicle would do...)

[[T]Terranova7]

That's great, you aren't the only 0311 in the world, but if you bothered reading his post, he wanted a 100% absolute realism game (ie: 32 tickets, 32 people, 1 death, no revives, ammo bags, etc) and I just pointed out that it was provided in the military.



Oh, so it's too hard for you and you want to remove the rallies to make it "easier?" *sigh* ??:

Bah, I'm just saying the rally points can really detract from the main objectives. I'll give you a scenario that happened to me and my squad on Qwai River. As an SL, I wanted to set up a rally point west of fishing village. I eventually did, however the PLA was onto us. We kept having to displace, and pull back in an effort to obtain a safe position. I set up a new rally every time we successfully reached a new point, but it seemed as if the enemy was doing the same. This constant movement went back and forth across the map here went on for at least 10 to 15 minutes. By the time I felt we had reached a safe location for a new rally, we could no longer assault fishing village as they had taken government office.

And this is the sort of thing that commonly happens. Two squads run into each other, and you end up fighting over virtually nothing on some remote region of the map. It becomes more of a war of attrition than anything, all caused by a small pile of bags deployed by each side.

Granted, I'm fully aware of the major problems that could come from this. Obviously, some changes to other aspects of the game could be made to help make life with no rally points work. Here's some ideas I've had personally.

- For starters, increase the amount of firebases that can be placed on the map. Even more so, have it so that the SLs can place them without permission from the CO. However, same rules for deploying a rally point would apply here. SL must have officer kit, must have 3 or more members in the squad etc.

- Make it so that firebases and bunkers can be deployed from supply crates in addition to the supply trucks. This would allow a transport chopper to fly in, drop a crate of supplies at a squad's location and enable them to construct a firebase and/or bunker without the hassle of driving the truck across the map.

- Introduce some form of the squad vehicle concept. Where basically the SL can request a jeep from the main base, bunker or firebase rather than waiting for a whole new set to spawn on the wave timer.

- Have transport choppers capable of deploying a jeep in the same manner as a supply crate. That way, you further enhance the role of the transport chopper by giving them the ability to provide a grounded squad with extra mobility.