More Civi Kill punish

[Spec]

No, thats impossible. Its way too much work and probably impossible to "simulate" bots. Real bots take slots on a server. For a realistic number of bots, there is no room for players anymore.

[Pariel]

Any chance we could return to a discussion of having civis on both teams?

Is anyone for it, against it?

Personally, I think it would enhance game play because it would a) give the Brits friendlies that blend in and can get through the city to find weapons caches to some extent, and b) the insurgents would also face the dilemna the Brits face right now--to kill a civilian and face a respawn penalty, or let him go on his merry way--as they do in real life.

[zangoo]

as far as i know bots dont take up spots on a server, i have played a lan game with 254 bots just to show you could have more then 64, now 254 did lag alot but a good server could run about 10 or even 20 bots i think that would be fine for what we are wanting 2 do.

[BloodBane611]

Yes, bots DO take up space on a server. You can only have 64 networked players including bots. That has been discussed to death.

TBH, I think a total revamp of the insurgent team is necessary.

[BloodBane611]

Double tap

[bullit_toof]

Any chance we could return to a discussion of having civis on both teams?

Is anyone for it, against it?

I think its an awesome idea. I've mulled it over myself for a while now, and I think it could be very positive, as no one would shoot a civi at all now, which to be fair, is how it should be.

Now this would go wonderfully with my suggestion on page 4 about civi identification....ahem....(hint hint)

[OverwatchX]

Any chance we could return to a discussion of having civis on both teams?

Is anyone for it, against it?
.

Actually, FWIW, I think this is a great idea. Make the civies identical on both teams. The brit civies would essentially be friendlies helping to oust the terrorists while the enemy civies would either be sympathizers or enemy combatants.

If PR also added in a riot control shotgun, you could deal with civies deemed hostile and arrest them. The insurgents would have a tough time trying to distinguish friend from foe and would have to improve comms in order to root out Brit spies. An insurgent who kills a civie would obviously suffer no penalty.

This is an awesome idea actually.

The ONLY problem would be nametags. How would we get around that?

[Pariel]

The ONLY problem would be nametags. How would we get around that?

I prefer not consider the difficulties inherent in the idea.

I honestly have NO clue if it's possible to remove the nametags. Maybe they could just be set to show up only at very short distances? I would think this is only changeable for everyone on the map though, not just a single class.

[BloodBane611]

Yes, it is possible to remove tags. As far as I know, it is only possible to do this across the entire team though. But I don't think that is a bad thing!

[RCMoonPie]

I think tags should be removed altogether as well.
If you cant tell the difference between a Brit and Insurgent even at a distance...you need to go back to playing vBF.

The only thing that would bite would be...how do you distiguish who is on your squad at that point?

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I see a lot of talk about draw distances and not being able to tell a civie from an insurgent.

Answer:
Dont fire.

It is very "realistic" to not pull the trigger if you are unsure of your target.
This is part of being a disciplined soldier or Marine.

No. As Kennway has said, if this was an initial push or even an occupation, if the "civilians" were moving with insurgents, they would be just as much targets as the insurgents. And when you receive fire, you just don't stand there and identify them, you fire back.

[RCMoonPie]

Suggestion for the civies that climb light-poles...
I would make it so the light-poles could be run down or knocked down by vehicles. This way the players that exploit this in game, would fall to their deaths.
Even console games(such as GTA) have light poles that can be knocked down.
I would also make it so they could be knocked down after taking so many bullet hits. Any pole can be mowed down by being riddled by holes whether it is wood or steel.

Also....I dont think there should be a punishment for wounding civies....just punishment for killing a civie. At least this way they can get a warning shot or two.
Just dont be the unlucky soul who sends the 3rd or 4th warning!
I like my remedy the best:

As for punishment for killing civies....what about a forced main weapon malfunction?
I kill a civie...and as a result of "murphy's law of war" and "bad kharma"....my main weapon experiences a jam or malfunction!
It can only be remedied by immediate action i.e. getting the weapon un-jammed. This can be simulated by 1.5 minutes of my weapon just going "click" when I pull the trigger! Or I can get to a rally and exchange kits.....either way....time is lost and point taken.

I also agree with the idea of having the CS launcher for insurgent maps as well.
It is already in the vanilla SF expansion pack so it needs no additional animation or the like.
Make it so only certain kits can carry it, so it continues to add to the realism and teamwork methods already in effect.

The effects would render the civilian class ineffective at range...No sight and coughing and hacking and unable to point out targets...and possibly "stumbling" around waiting to be knifed as the in-game method of apprehension.

Thats my idea......I think it would deal with the issue and add another degree of realism to the game in the way of the weapons malfunction and dealing with it. With the exception that you know when and how you got the malfunction....killing the civie.

Because the civilian, with the binos and the grappling hook can climb up on the light post and look into the base. This way he is telling the rest of his squad who what when and where. Thus it is strategically important to take the "spotter" out...specially on a server like battlearena where they have a dome of death around the airbase which forces the insurgents to wait outside (theycant just climb on the sandbags and such)
And did you even read all of my post or did you just pick and choose?
Answer me this: Why is the civi even necessary?

As I suggested.....if you took the spotter out.....you would suffer a weapons malfunction for 1.5 to 2 minutes....unless you could get another kit.
Also....there are ways to kill civies....one of which is to kill them while on the grappling rope.
If you see that civie climbing the light pole....fire away!
Also....you can keep him blinded by firing rounds close to his head....his blurred vision will keep him from spotting.
To answer your question.....civies are necessary to the attempted realism of the game. On the insurgent maps....the Brits are moving into a foreign land that is occupied by inhabitants. They live there. Civies just dont pack up their lives and move to another city. They stay in hopes that the battle will be temporary. Also....this game mode simulates Brits moving in to look for weapons caches....and as a result fighting breaks out in defense of these caches.
The Brits arent looking for a fight necessarily....but they are prepared to do so to take out those caches.

maybe I'm not reading this right, but wouldn't you just be able to verify whose in your squad through the map? Besides, it would add a whole new level of intensity into urban fighting if you couldn't anticipate a friendly walking around a corner by seeing his name through the wall (would also lead to several accidental bloodbaths at first, but this community has had to adapt to changes in the past)

I agree....but that is team Identification.....I was refering to squad I dentification.
For instance at the beginning of a map, spawning at the main, there can be 20 some odd team-mates standing there within sight. How do I identify which 5 are in my squad?

No. As Kennway has said, if this was an initial push or even an occupation, if the "civilians" were moving with insurgents, they would be just as much targets as the insurgents. And when you receive fire, you just don't stand there and identify them, you fire back.

Like I said.....identifying yourself as undisciplined.

In most cases IRL, it is the insurgents who are are trying to blend in with the civilian population, not vice versa.


joselucca...now....you read my post and dont "just pick and choose".

[Spec]

I'd say:

Remove the hook from the civilian kit. Too many exploits.
Add a shotgun with less than lethal ammo to one of the brit's kits, like e.g. Officer (instead of Flash?) or Spec Ops. The beanbags would cause one or more of the worse effects, like the flash bang or bleeding out effect.

About punishment:

LONG respawn for KILLED civilians and i mean LOOOOONG. 100+
SHORT respawn for ARRESTED civilians
That would force the civilians to stop doing suicide missions.

Allow the brits to shoot civilians very close to inurgents: Also prevents human shields.

BUT: Display a civ-killers name visible to everyone, play "friendly fire!" sound, cause 20% health damage to the shooter and/or make the brits lose 5 tickets.

That would work well, in my opinion. Civilians cant climb on spots the brits cant reach, so the need to kill them is low. If you are in such a situation, use the less lethal shotgun and they cant spot you anymore. If they are helping inusurgents as human shield, which will not happen that often anymore, you are allowed to shoot them.

The number of unauthorized civ-kills will be waaay lower than right now.

[RCMoonPie]

I'd say:

Remove the hook from the civilian kit. Too many exploits.
Add a shotgun with less than lethal ammo to one of the brit's kits, like e.g. Officer (instead of Flash?) or Spec Ops. The beanbags would cause one or more of the worse effects, like the flash bang or bleeding out effect.

About punishment:

LONG respawn for KILLED civilians and i mean LOOOOONG. 100+
SHORT respawn for ARRESTED civilians
That would force the civilians to stop doing suicide missions.

Allow the brits to shoot civilians very close to inurgents: Also prevents human shields.

BUT: Display a civ-killers name visible to everyone, play "friendly fire!" sound, cause 20% health damage to the shooter and/or make the brits lose 5 tickets.

That would work well, in my opinion. Civilians cant climb on spots the brits cant reach, so the need to kill them is low. If you are in such a situation, use the less lethal shotgun and they cant spot you anymore. If they are helping inusurgents as human shield, which will not happen that often anymore, you are allowed to shoot them.

The number of unauthorized civ-kills will be waaay lower than right now.

I respectfully disagree.
Shotgun with non lethal load may be interesting.....but if you are close enough for the beanbag to be effective.....why not just make the arrest with the knife? The grappling hook has a place in the game. Just make the lightpoles able to be knocked down by vehicles. The exploited civie would then fall to his death.

Also......if a civie is shot......he should get a SHORT respawn not a longer one. Give him a LOOOONG respawn if he gets arrested.....after all he should be punished for giving up intel about his team. This would stop the suicide missions....if I know I am gonna take forever to spawn by getting captured.....I will make myself scarce.

Punishment should be individual.....taking tickets away from the whole team is ineffective. You will have smacktards doing it deliberately. It will be the same folks that like to pop smoke on their own team's position or fire shots at their own team or other stupid stuff.

I still say simulate a 2 minute weapon malfunction by not allowing the civie killer to use his weapon leaving him with nothing but rocks in his kit to throw.
And then place in the public chat:
"Player A is too undisciplined to be trusted with a loaded weapon".

[Spec]

Shotgun with non lethal load may be interesting.....but if you are close enough for the beanbag to be effective.....why not just make the arrest with the knife? The grappling hook has a place in the game. Just make the lightpoles able to be knocked down by vehicles. The exploited civie would then fall to his death.

Basrah has too many destroyable objects already. Buildings would have to be removed. Also: lag alert.
The hook can be in the sniper kit, or a new pickup kit.
The shotgun is useful when a civ is on an unreachable point.

Also......if a civie is shot......he should get a SHORT respawn not a longer one. Give him a LOOOONG respawn if he gets arrested.....after all he should be punished for giving up intel about his team. This would stop the suicide missions....if I know I am gonna take forever to spawn by getting captured.....I will make myself scarce.

I would prefer being arrested than getting killed. The civ has no reason to let the brits arrest him. He will always try to run away. There is no need to enforce that with spawn time.

Punishment should be individual.....taking tickets away from the whole team is ineffective. You will have smacktards doing it deliberately. It will be the same folks that like to pop smoke on their own team's position or fire shots at their own team or other stupid stuff.

Yes. But they will always find a way to do that stuff. Admins will kick them, players will vote kick them, if possible. And they will be kicked for negative score. In 0.6 the insurgents got 10 tickets for each killed civilian. Wasnt a big deal. -5 also wont be.

[BloodBane611]

Adding tickets to the insurgents is a lot different than removing them from the brits. The brits start with 400, meaning that 80 civi kills would destroy the team. Now, one smacktard makes 15 or 20 with the challenger, plus another 20 from civi kills that are righteous, and you have lost almost half your tickets. That would just screw the brits right over. For the record, insurgents still receive 10 tickets for each civi killed.

One thing could be to make the civis run slower. In 0.6 people would spend way too much time chasing after civis, only to get ambushed or the like. Now people are tired of it and just shoot them. If they couldn't run as fast they wouldn't put themselves in such compromising positions. Now, this doesn't solve all the civi problems, but it does solve some of them.

[RCMoonPie]

Im not saying make the light-poles destroyable...just make them dislodge and fall. Or remodel them to where they are too small to stand on.
Maybe give them a characteristic of a weapon where as the whole bottom of the pole is the trigger cuasing the pole to "fire" which could be in essence the pole vibrating enough to make the exploiter fall. Im sure it could be done if someone got creative enough.

Imposing the weapon malfunction I suggested would cure a lot as well.

If you are unable to fire another round for 2 minutes after a civie kill.....you will have plenty of time to think before you shoot the next one.

No one seems to want to address the weapon malfunction idea.
Why not make it so when you kill a civie your weapon is unusable for 2 minutes? This way you are rendered useless on the battlefield for two minutes to yourself, your squad, and team....and vulverable to the enemy.

Also recieving a larger negative score for each civie kill would curtail it a little too. Some servers kick after you reach a certain neg score....if this happens enough....you will start checking your fire if you are at risk of having to restart or cant get back into a good full server.

[RCMoonPie]

Another idea to keep civies from explointing near the main base on Bhasrah...

What if there was a "line" constructed that was marked by signs on the map next to affected roads, posted out in the fields, or open desert outside of bases that read in both english and arabic.:

"Do not enter! Use of deadly force is Authorized!"

This would represent somewhat of a "green-zone".
Anyone caught inside this greenzone civilian or insurgent could be killed.

For instance.....the "line" on Basrah could follow the river east, and as it heads west the line would continue straight across the land departing the river.

This way, a "law abiding" civie would not cross the line.
A civie who is aiding the insurgents could be shot for crossing the line into the Brits green zone.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Like I said.....identifying yourself as undisciplined.

In most cases IRL, it is the insurgents who are are trying to blend in with the civilian population, not vice versa.

You have no idea what you are talking about. An insurgency is DURING AN OCCUPATION, not before it. Bashrah ingame represents more of an initial push, which you obviously didn't read. If this was an occupation, there would be civis in the streets everywhere which is of course not possible and the UK would be patrolling the streets and talking to civilians, not trying to knife (cuff) them.

And as I said, if a "civilian" is mingled with an insurgent out in a field, the civilian is likely to be ingaged if that group of people fire upon you. If you are fired upon, you fire back, plan and simple.


And it has nothing to do with being undisciplined or not, that is just stupid. It has to do with ingame limitations and what is practical and what is not practical. When you turn a corner and see white, it is not practical to look at the guy from head to toe before shooting. Not every ingagement is from long range because Basrah is CQB after all.

And I don't care if you look at the civi from far away for an hour, once you go after him, you could easily turn a corner and see both a civi and insurgent and not have enough time to differentiate between the two.