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Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 06:54
by Octane
But uh...AIUI those things you listed are things to be discouraged and weeded out in PR anyway.
Yes bootenants and privates have a propensity to be ah...challenged and make bad decisions sometimes, but no one should pander to that. It's a shame nobody can punch people in the gut over standard TCP/IP to enforce the declaration that what they're doing (whatever it is) is a stupendous Bad Idea, but kicking them for being obstreperous idiots sounds reasonable enough.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 07:46
by Deer
The reason i find it more effective to solo tank while defending in simple words: if i have driver, the tank wont do the smartest tactical choise, meaning staying still for 30minutes and ambush. Simple as that, and like you said there is many reasons for it, but i dont care about reasons, i care about the end result, and that is once again "tank wont do the smartest tactical choise, if there is driver in the tank. Meaning tank wont stand still for as long as it would be the most effective way of using the tank in current situation. Instead driver moves the tank for whatever reason and result is alot less effective way of tank usage, than what it would be if tank wouldnt be moved"
Im trying my best to form words so that it leaves no room for pointless replys that repeats over and over again in forum, mostly it happens anyway and i need to repeat the text all the time because replys what my text gets doesnt really "over rule" what i have already writen, so i can just give the same answer again and again. Thats actually how forums works, people replys even the previously written text already "answers" their reply before they even write that reply, hate it
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 07:48
by gazzthompson
i really cant be assed to read this thread, but my input is:
no driver = gun dosnt work.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 11:44
by Tirak
[R-CON]Deer wrote:The reason i find it more effective to solo tank while defending in simple words: if i have driver, the tank wont do the smartest tactical choise, meaning staying still for 30minutes and ambush. Simple as that, and like you said there is many reasons for it, but i dont care about reasons, i care about the end result, and that is once again "tank wont do the smartest tactical choise, if there is driver in the tank. Meaning tank wont stand still for as long as it would be the most effective way of using the tank in current situation. Instead driver moves the tank for whatever reason and result is alot less effective way of tank usage, than what it would be if tank wouldnt be moved"
Im trying my best to form words so that it leaves no room for pointless replys that repeats over and over again in forum, mostly it happens anyway and i need to repeat the text all the time because replys what my text gets doesnt really "over rule" what i have already writen, so i can just give the same answer again and again. Thats actually how forums works, people replys even the previously written text already "answers" their reply before they even write that reply, hate it
You've got the same argument every solo tanker on Basrah uses, you can control the entire tank operation yourself. You don't need to convince some random pubbie to do what you want, when you want it, you do the exact sort of tactics that you think are best. Some times the best tactic is to sit and wait, others its shoot and scoot and on very rare occasions on flat heavy armor maps its run and gun. But you're still wrong about a solo tank being more effective. Your issue with drivers who don't want to wait is a communication problem, not "solo tanks are more effective against two manned because drivers have no patience." Since the release of .8 I've been tanking a lot more and when it comes down to it, you've got to communicate and find someone to crew the tank who follows orders. Set it up at the beginning the match and make sure they know who's boss, and then you won't run into the kind of problems you're having with impatient drivers.
Long story short, if you're the TC, it's your fault if you can't find a good driver/gunner/.50 cal.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 12:21
by Psyko
Tcombat runs a non-solo tanker policy. I have seen people banned because they solo tanked. Its mainly to do with wasting assets. We have found that solo tankers in 0.756 have (1) Pissed off all the other people who were waiting for tanks (2) have gotten wasted MORE often than a properly crewed tank. Deer, i have to say i disagree with your math. Its as simple as this...solo tankers dont look for ambush positions, as most of them are selfish and more focused on showing off their l337 skillz. on a map like ejod, a solo apc would drive up to a flag, sit there, man the gun, camp for a minute, and when a crewed apc rolls up they switch seats to driver and hawl ***, only to get EASILY outflanked by the crew of the other vehicle.
I can see whats eating at you though. You dont trust other players to have the same tactical abilities and knowlage as yourself, so you would rather solo. thats fine, but not on our server.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 12:38
by Deer
Sure i have formed and been part of good tank crews where ppl communicates with voip, like i said i do that always when tank is needed for attacking. And when tank is needed for defending i solo, because there is no need for driver, he would be much more usefull doing something else than being driver in a tank that sits and waits in ambush. Sometimes i tell my driver to "take the 2nd tank we gonna defend not attack, its more effective than having you sitting and doing nothing" and sometimes we have engineer with us, but driver just isnt needed.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 12:44
by Tirak
[R-CON]Deer wrote:Sure i have formed and been part of good tank crews where ppl communicates with voip, like i said i do that always when tank is needed for attacking. And when tank is needed for defending i solo, because there is no need for driver, he would be much more usefull doing something else than being driver in a tank that sits and waits in ambush.
It's the
option of mobile firepower that makes two manned tanks deadly though in the ambush. You're not stuck in one position while raining shells on the enemy. Shoot and Scoot is the tactic that wins for tanks, especially in an ambush. You shoot and get your first shot off and then you're rolling to reposition so the enemy can't lock you up, two manned ambushers hold command of the engagement. Two manned ambushed can easily break away from a one manned tank as they are mobile, and unless the one man wants to sacrifice his firepower, which gives the next three shots to the other tank if he changes back to gunner immediately. Solo tanking against a full crew tank who knows what they're doing is a bad idea, they will always break free and out maneuver you, even if they retreat, your position is blown so you have to either move, which makes you obscenely vulnerable, or you sit there and watch as you take and air strike, or are outflanked.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 12:50
by Deer
That completely depends on your ambushing skills, against aircraft ofc you cant do much. But when ambushing, the one who gets the first shot wins, you are in crappy ambush location if enemy has chance to escape after 1 hit or take cover. Point is, that location is pretty much everything when you ambush, enemy cant be allowed to see you before you see him, and enemy cant have high chances to escape and flank.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 12:55
by Tirak
[R-CON]Deer wrote:That completely depends on your ambushing skills, against aircraft ofc you cant do much. But when ambushing, the one who gets the first shot wins, you are in crappy ambush location if enemy has chance to escape after 1 hit or take cover. Point is, that location is pretty much everything when you ambush, enemy cant be allowed to see you before you see him, and enemy cant have high chances to escape and flank.
First shot is not the winning shot, if the crew is new to tanking they'll panic and set you up nicely, if the crew is experiance, the Gunner, Driver or .50 is going to have identified where the shot came from, they're going to see you and snap off a shot or smoke out the area and haul ***, then they'll come at you from behind, or ask infantry to come at you from behind. The ability to deploy smoke allows the tank to
create its own cover, and just where are you ambushing that the tank can just drive out of your LOS?
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 13:03
by Deer
Tirak wrote:First shot is not the winning shot, if the crew is new to tanking they'll panic and set you up nicely, if the crew is experiance, the Gunner, Driver or .50 is going to have identified where the shot came from, they're going to see you and snap off a shot or smoke out the area and haul ***, then they'll come at you from behind, or ask infantry to come at you from behind. The ability to deploy smoke allows the tank to create its own cover, and just where are you ambushing that the tank can just drive out of your LOS?
Like i said, dont pick up location where he can escape before your killing shot. Ofc they can get 1 shot to you IF they are experienced crew, happens quite rarely and when it does i go to repair. But first shooter, reloads first and gets the killing shot first. And for infantry it takes forever to get to the tank without dying. There is plenty of time before you have pissed off that many enemies that they start hunting towards you with AT and C4. And before smoke has spread so that you cant see through it, you have already shot the 2nd shot.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 13:12
by Tirak
[R-CON]Deer wrote:Like i said, dont pick up location where he can escape before your killing shot. Ofc they can get 1 shot to you IF they are experienced crew, happens quite rarely and when it does i go to repair. But first shooter, reloads first and gets the killing shot first. And for infantry it takes forever to get to the tank without dying. There is plenty of time before you have pissed off that many enemies that they start hunting towards you with AT and C4. And before smoke has spread so that you cant see through it, you have already shot the 2nd shot.
There is no spot on the map that provides both concealment heavy enough to hide your tank and an unobstructed view, so unless you're sitting in a wide open plain, they can get away, and if the tank crew is savvy enough, they'll turn to face you for your next shot and live to face a third.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 13:16
by Deer
Tirak wrote:There is no spot on the map that provides both concealment heavy enough to hide your tank and an unobstructed view, so unless you're sitting in a wide open plain, they can get away, and if the tank crew is savvy enough, they'll turn to face you for your next shot and live to face a third.
Depends on the map, and atleast i have never had much trouble finding good spots for ambushing with tank in whatever map. Or with any vehicle or actually even as infantry. Actually im almost always playing sneaky tactics, no matter is it vehicle or squad, meaning i dont really use that much of combat tactics, instead i try to use tactics that leaves enemies no chances at all, sneak, surprice, anti-stereotypical moves, ambush. It turns out to be super fun when entire squad has been organized to do the same sometimes (when im SL that is)
Point is solo tanking ambushing/defending, uses same skills as all kind of sneaking uses, and in general ppls sneaking skills are this: "there is enemies that hasnt spotted us! "*shoots at the enemy right after spotting them* 10 enemies turns their attention to that guy.. --> that guy's squad is dead soon after. So if you cant sneak-kill multiple enemies without being noticed, i dont think you can solo tank either. But some ppl can for sure.
And btw krhmm, that "kills streak" from my sign, 82 kills without dying, came from solo tanking in time when there was already 3 slots in tanks.
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 13:54
by Sadist_Cain
gazzthompson wrote:i really cant be assed to read this thread, but my input is:
no driver = gun dosnt work.
I Like
Re: One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)
Posted: 2008-09-24 14:06
by Tirak
[R-CON]Deer wrote:Depends on the map, and atleast i have never had much trouble finding good spots for ambushing with tank in whatever map. Or with any vehicle or actually even as infantry. Actually im almost always playing sneaky tactics, no matter is it vehicle or squad, meaning i dont really use that much of combat tactics, instead i try to use tactics that leaves enemies no chances at all, sneak, surprice, anti-stereotypical moves, ambush. It turns out to be super fun when entire squad has been organized to do the same sometimes (when im SL that is)
Point is solo tanking ambushing/defending, uses same skills as all kind of sneaking uses, and in general ppls sneaking skills are this: "there is enemies that hasnt spotted us! "*shoots at the enemy right after spotting them* 10 enemies turns their attention to that guy.. --> that guy's squad is dead soon after. So if you cant sneak-kill multiple enemies without being noticed, i dont think you can solo tank either. But some ppl can for sure.
And btw krhmm, that "kills streak" from my sign, 82 kills without dying, came from solo tanking in time when there was already 3 slots in tanks.
If PR ever includes Tank Destroyers into the mix, your tactics will no doubt make you an expert as the defining trait of a Tank Destroyer is the lack of a rotating turret and thus cannot fire on the move unless it is charging the target, and forces it to rely on stealth and ambush. However, as MBTs have said turrets, their mobile firepower is more useful to a team than being immobile. This is not to say tanks should not ambush, only that they cannot afford to handicap themselves by removing their mobility advantage.