Project Reality Forums

I think that people run around cause they most of the time aren't lead properly. I often stare at the squad screen waiting for the only VOIP squad to open up.

You have to break the vBF2 and other generic rush shooter patterns and just killing people off doesn't do anything. Think about it. CS has deathmatch rounds where you DONT RESPAWN and yet its considered one of the most annoyingly noobish games. Rounds can last quite a while when it comes down to a few lone wolves. Thats a spawn time in excess of anything normal mentioned here as a solution.

The fact is that if they don't learn anything from dying 20 times, waiting 30 seconds, spawning at base, trudging for 5 minutes to the enemy ridge, getting killed by ghosts, and repeat, then they won't learn JUST from those things.

Leaders teach you how to live. In real life or game life its true that a squad with no leader is very very vulnerable.

The problem is that we don't have enough Fuzzheads leading squads in every server (watch those youtube vids and tell me how many pub games have been like that for you).

Spawn times don't change anything. Mostly it would just see most of the same thing and until a point where it would be so long that people didn't play very much.

Ghost1800 wrote:I think the problem here is that you guys can't agree on what teaches new players. One side says harsher deaths would force new players to adapt in order to actually participate in the game, the other side says that more deaths give more opportunities to learn what does and doesn't work. Start from there.

This is not limited to new players only. I am doubtful in the situation i presented earlier that the whole squad was full of noobies. Most people simply do not care about dying.

I dont know if any of you guys have played armed assault, but in most of the coop and TvT missions on there, there is no respawn whatsoever. People still go out there and do their thing. If you die at the beginning of a mission you are looking at a possible 30-40 minute wait before the round is over. If you guys are seriously getting players in your squad not following orders because they are "afraid of dying" because of a 30 second spawn time, then i am genuinely surprised...I have never heard of that, ever. I'm not trying to sound like ive seen it all, just callin it how i see it. In my experience you get two types of players, one is the player who will follow orders. Two is the guy who doesn't respond at all and goes off and does his own thing. If you get any player who doesn't follow orders for any reason at all, kick him from your squad. Its pretty simple.

As far as the learning curve of new players...Its not acceptable to practice flying jets on a live server, so why is it acceptable to go infantry for your very first time on a live server? Of course it is much less of an impact on the team as a whole seeing as how just hes just one rifleman, and his repeated dying doesn't affect anyone but himself, but thats why it is not a valid point to refute death punishment in my eyes. Obviously I exaggerated for that point, as noone can resist hopping on a live server right after they get the mod, but my point is that there ARE resources for the player who really wants to play the mod as it was meant to be played. The PR wiki, the single player to get yourself familiar with kits/maps, theres even a section on the forums dedicated to training nights. Make a thread in the general forum asking for help? You'll get a page full of people more than willing to lend a helping hand to you. The resources are there, its up to the player to take advantage of them.

If he gets deterred because of some spawn time or whatever...he was playing the wrong game anyway--And i will come out right now and say there ARE certain people playing the wrong game. Case in point that sniper thread that came up a few days ago, about the guy asking for the grappling hook, and then going on to admit that he liked to lone wolf, and doesn't really care for the teamplay aspect of the mod. There was also that guy a few weeks back saying that as a one-man tanker, he was confident he could defeat any two-man tanker.

I think thats about enough for this novel at this time. Wall of text hits you for 23098235 damage.

PFunk wrote:I think that people run around cause they most of the time aren't lead properly. I often stare at the squad screen waiting for the only VOIP squad to open up.

You have to break the vBF2 and other generic rush shooter patterns and just killing people off doesn't do anything. Think about it. CS has deathmatch rounds where you DONT RESPAWN and yet its considered one of the most annoyingly noobish games. Rounds can last quite a while when it comes down to a few lone wolves. Thats a spawn time in excess of anything normal mentioned here as a solution.

The fact is that if they don't learn anything from dying 20 times, waiting 30 seconds, spawning at base, trudging for 5 minutes to the enemy ridge, getting killed by ghosts, and repeat, then they won't learn JUST from those things.

Leaders teach you how to live. In real life or game life its true that a squad with no leader is very very vulnerable.

The problem is that we don't have enough Fuzzheads leading squads in every server (watch those youtube vids and tell me how many pub games have been like that for you).

Spawn times don't change anything. Mostly it would just see most of the same thing and until a point where it would be so long that people didn't play very much.

CS makes up for it by having tiny, action packed maps, and letting you spectate when you are dead. Regardless, if i recall correctly, a single round of counter strike RARELY lasts longer than 2-4 minutes.

You dont need a squad leader to tell you to get down when you're getting shot at man. If you do, then just give up. What you mean is being outmaneuvered, outflanked, and just generally having a leader less tactically minded than your enemies squad leader. That is a completely different subject than players not caring about death, which is what this thread is about.

I fail to see your logic about spawn times not changing anything. Previously brought up in this thread was the fact of people consistently attacking because of such a short spawn time and the convenience of firebases and/or rally points. A lengthened spawn would definitely put an end to the "tactic" of laying down a rally 100m from a point, tard rush mindlessly until the point is yours. If you really believe people would play the same as if spawn was 5 seconds or 5 minutes, then those are some strange people.

I don't really think there should be a reward/punish system. The game already rewards you for being near other people, so i don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me.

xgayox wrote: I dont know if any of you guys have played armed assault, blabla...

I really don't get this whole thing where people always compare PRM to ArmA.
If you want a milsim then go play ArmA or OFP or whatever

Why start turning PR into ArmA v2, when you already have a game like that?
If you dislike PR so much then go play ArmA. Most people's attitude here is "I played ArmA so now every game I play has to be like that else it sucks balls and I'll do everything to turn it into an ArmA clone, starting with PR here and now"
If you want a game, where you just sit around starring at the screen and discuss uber1337 cyber tactics while wasting 15 minutes of your life looking at some pixels and think it's cool, then you have it: ArmA.

If you want a teamplay oriented, fun and with a speed of gameplay, that isn't fast but neither it's slow (and can't waste 7 hours playing one round like a lifeless nerd) you have PR. And that's where it should stay.

If you are soo dying of the thought of having all the PR goods mixed with ArmA game play, then go make your own mod for ArmA which incorporates similar content PR has and play that and leave this mod alone.


Onto the topic, the problem isn't with enemies coming back in 30 seconds to kill you, it's the problem of where they come back in 30 seconds. If you kill a squad and they all respawn in their main base 2 Km away, then there is no way for them to come back instantly and kill you since they now know what you're using and doing. If you kill a squad and they all respawn on their RP right in the middle of your squad and kill you, then it is a problem.

A problem, which doesn't get solved with increasing spawn times. If you shoot down an A10 it stays down for 20 minutes, which is punishing enough for the enemy team; why should it's pilot also get punished by having a spawn time of 5-6 minutes just because he was flying it when it got shot down.

I suggested the idea of having extra spawn times depending on the spawn point a while ago and those would IMO solve the issue a lot better.
For example - you get killed, 30 second spawn time:

-you choose to spawn on your RP - since it's the spawn point closest to the enemy, you get an additional 30 seconds before you can spawn on it.

-you choose to spawn on firebase/bunker; since it's a bit further but still close the the frontline, you get 15 seconds extra

-you choose to spawn on your main base - since it's the furhest point from the frontlines, there is no penalty.

Outlawz wrote:I really don't get this whole thing where people always compare PRM to ArmA.
If you want a milsim then go play ArmA or OFP or whatever

Why start turning PR into ArmA v2, when you already have a game like that?
If you dislike PR so much then go play ArmA. Most people's attitude here is "I played ArmA so now every game I play has to be like that else it sucks balls and I'll do everything to turn it into an ArmA clone, starting with PR here and now"
If you want a game, where you just sit around starring at the screen and discuss uber1337 cyber tactics while wasting 15 minutes of your life looking at some pixels and think it's cool, then you have it: ArmA.

If you want a teamplay oriented, fun and with a speed of gameplay, that isn't fast but neither it's slow (and can't waste 7 hours playing one round like a lifeless nerd) you have PR. And that's where it should stay.

If you are soo dying of the thought of having all the PR goods mixed with ArmA game play, then go make your own mod for ArmA which incorporates similar content PR has and play that and leave this mod alone.


Onto the topic, the problem isn't with enemies coming back in 30 seconds to kill you, it's the problem of where they come back in 30 seconds. If you kill a squad and they all respawn in their main base 2 Km away, then there is no way for them to come back instantly and kill you since they now know what you're using and doing. If you kill a squad and they all respawn on their RP right in the middle of your squad and kill you, then it is a problem.

A problem, which doesn't get solved with increasing spawn times. If you shoot down an A10 it stays down for 20 minutes, which is punishing enough for the enemy team; why should it's pilot also get punished by having a spawn time of 5-6 minutes just because he was flying it when it got shot down.

I suggested the idea of having extra spawn times depending on the spawn point a while ago and those would IMO solve the issue a lot better.
For example - you get killed, 30 second spawn time:

-you choose to spawn on your RP - since it's the spawn point closest to the enemy, you get an additional 30 seconds before you can spawn on it.

-you choose to spawn on firebase/bunker; since it's a bit further but still close the the frontline, you get 15 seconds extra

-you choose to spawn on your main base - since it's the furhest point from the frontlines, there is no penalty.

Agree.

Everyone wants PR to be arma, I am not sure what the DEVs are thinking now, but I though PR was meant to be a fun, multi-role warfare realism based game. Not uber anal realism wait half an hour to spend 10 minutes doing nothing to wait another half an hour, then maybe having some action.

At the moment I fail to see how it can be fun, with a respawn time of 5 minutes, most likely an hour for assets if many had their way...

There is just no point in doing anything...

I would much rather play AIX, fast paced, spammy but overall more fun than looking at your screen for half an hour because you are waiting to respawn and then are afraid to do anything because you might die.

Flaming thread...keep the suicide stuff like it is at the moment.

flamer: "oh damn, not again this suicide car, i am a stupid kid which always go solo with apc or a tank and cant switch fast enough when the bombcar income"
suicidebomber: "i dont care..."
flamer: "haha now i got you!!! have fun with 4 hours spawntime!HAHA !!!
suicidebomber: "ok i´ll switch team...hm doesnt work...i will go other server..its full...ok uninstall pr"

TRAGEDY!!

btw many soldiers dont realy care about there life, if u realy smart and (realy) care about your life or life basicly(LOL) u dont go to war. This is a war simulation, so if u care about your life dont waste your time with this game *BUUUH!*i do cuz its fun LOL .I think suicidecars is most exciting stuff in PR cuz its realy hard to blow a good crewman up in the air ,u dont have armor, no guns(like the tank got or apc got), car is fragile and u know that u gonna die...before you die u want to take somone with you(enemy).Its interesting and exciting experience in a simulation

Taliban-IED wrote:Flaming thread...keep the suicide stuff like it is at the moment.

btw many soldiers dont realy care about there life, if u realy smart and (realy) care about your life or life basicly(LOL) u dont go to war. This is a war simulation, so if u care about your life dont waste your time with this game *BUUUH!*i do cuz its fun LOL .I think suicidecars is most exciting stuff in PR cuz its realy hard to blow a good crewman up in the air ,u dont have armor, no guns(like the tank got or apc got), car is fragile and u know that u gonna die...before you die u want to take somone with you(enemy).Its interesting and exciting experience in a simulation

"I want you to remember that no ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb ******* die for his country."

Taliban-IED just proved my point. People actually believe that dying is a legitimate strategy in PR (it actually is), just make sure you take at least one person with you. Who cares? You're back in 30 seconds anyways. I just find this sort of a left over from vanilla that should be remedied to make people value their life (or time in this case) more. Spawning at main isn't the end of the world, just add more transportation, at least people will have to think outside of the immediate 200m around them and actually read a map to approach a position. That kind of thinking just isn't rewarded in PR, guy with the closer spawn wins.

Respawning has many functions in PR, realism is not one of them. In a real war everything you do is based upon not dying. Billions are spent each year to prevent soldiers from dying. Respawning at rally points and firebases just feels really spammy, and I can just run in without thinking and eventually win just by charging repeatedly.

Its not really all that fun, and sure as hell isn't realistic. Setting up a defense and an organized attack is actually pretty fun, but after the 3rd or fourth wave rush its more or less vanilla with more accurate fire. Also whatever the removal of the squad leader spawn was supposed to accomplish was negated with the introduction of firebases and bunkers.

Just add more transport. Even on maps like Fools road or whatever, a transport chopper might be ok. More realism, more fun since you'll have more logical approaches by the enemy, as opposed to having 100 guys pour out of a 6x6 room. Hell you could have a 5 second spawn time and its still a win win situation. And to be honest, vanilla with its stationary spawn points made more sense from a certain perspective since the enemy actually had to come from an actual taken and friendly position.

[R-CON]CAS_117 wrote:And to be honest, vanilla with its stationary spawn points made more sense from a certain perspective since the enemy actually had to come from an actual taken and friendly position.

Nothing changed there the spawn points just became a destroyable object.

And yes, no one cares about dying much in a game.

If the game genre is first-person shooter, sooner or later each and every player on the server will die, because they will go and kill each other. Why should I constantly worry about getting killed, it's going to happen sooner or later and I'm already punished enough for it.

It's already bad enough, that most firefights in PR are squad vs squad, because everyone is busy being spreaded across the map and most of the time you don't face more than 10 enemies.
I actually like 64 players on 16 player maps (Street was an exception of course), because I can have firefights with several groups of enemies rather than some lone marksman and a rifleman. Several times I played Ejod 16p, most 25+ teams still couldn't cover the entire city. On 64 maps it's a ghost town.

Most complain, that 64 players on small maps is "Bf2 vAniLlA". IRL there would be tons of infantry concetrated, clearing buildings and advancing across the area. So most prefer huge maps, where everyone expects a single squad to take a CP. That squad's only hope is their RP, since they don't have a battalion of soldiers to back them up, so we "simulate" a huge assault by having the same 6 people spawn off a pile of bags.

And now you want to punish that while still expecting small groups of players to be able to take on any enemy they encounter
I know we want to be realistic here, but turning PR to the point, where CPs are assaulted and defended by a couple of players from each side and if any fail, they get severely punished for it and are out of the fight for like 10 minutes each time they engage will make PR an utterly boring, frustrating and unenjoyable to everyone aside from those few analy realistic players, which will burst from orgasms as they play one round for half a day and accomplish nothing, but think they did so much.

Outlawz wrote:Nothing changed there the spawn points just became a destroyable object.

And yes, no one cares about dying much in a game.

If the game genre is first-person shooter, sooner or later each and every player on the server will die, because they will go and kill each other. Why should I constantly worry about getting killed, it's going to happen sooner or later and I'm already punished enough for it.

It's already bad enough, that most firefights in PR are squad vs squad, because everyone is busy being spreaded across the map and most of the time you don't face more than 10 enemies.
I actually like 64 players on 16 player maps (Street was an exception of course), because I can have firefights with several groups of enemies rather than some lone marksman and a rifleman. Several times I played Ejod 16p, most 25+ teams still couldn't cover the entire city. On 64 maps it's a ghost town.

Most complain, that 64 players on small maps is "Bf2 vAniLlA". IRL there would be tons of infantry concetrated, clearing buildings and advancing across the area. So most prefer huge maps, where everyone expects a single squad to take a CP. That squad's only hope is their RP, since they don't have a battalion of soldiers to back them up, so we "simulate" a huge assault by having the same 6 people spawn off a pile of bags.

And now you want to punish that while still expecting small groups of players to be able to take on any enemy they encounter
I know we want to be realistic here, but turning PR to the point, where CPs are assaulted and defended by a couple of players from each side and if any fail, they get severely punished for it and are out of the fight for like 10 minutes each time they engage will make PR an utterly boring, frustrating and unenjoyable to everyone aside from those few analy realistic players, which will burst from orgasms as they play one round for half a day and accomplish nothing, but think they did so much.

thats the reason I hope the DEVs will draw a sharp line in the future between smaller maps for infantry, where the background of the maps explain why no apc's and tanks are available, like, to dense forests, to risky, to mountainous or cities with to narrow streets on one side.
and huge maps for combined arms, assetts preferably on short spawntime on the other.
sum up: small maps where you fight on foot for every meter, huge maps where you fight for 100's of meters in assetts

101 bassdrive wrote: sum up: small maps where you fight on foot for every meter, huge maps where you fight for 100's of meters in assetts

Yes, what I think it should be.

Outlawz wrote:I really don't get this whole thing where people always compare PRM to ArmA.
If you want a milsim then go play ArmA or OFP or whatever

Why start turning PR into ArmA v2, when you already have a game like that?
If you dislike PR so much then go play ArmA. Most people's attitude here is "I played ArmA so now every game I play has to be like that else it sucks balls and I'll do everything to turn it into an ArmA clone, starting with PR here and now"
If you want a game, where you just sit around starring at the screen and discuss uber1337 cyber tactics while wasting 15 minutes of your life looking at some pixels and think it's cool, then you have it: ArmA.

If you want a teamplay oriented, fun and with a speed of gameplay, that isn't fast but neither it's slow (and can't waste 7 hours playing one round like a lifeless nerd) you have PR. And that's where it should stay.

If you are soo dying of the thought of having all the PR goods mixed with ArmA game play, then go make your own mod for ArmA which incorporates similar content PR has and play that and leave this mod alone.

Are you dense? Did you even read the rest of my post? If not GTFO with your condescending attitude and your stupid eye roll smiley. The point is that players would not be too scared to play even with long spawn.

It is a little strange you are bringing up "lifeless nerds" and people wasting so much time of their lives when we have joined at the same time yet you are sitting atop 6000 posts...

guys keep the bitching apart! i personally think the spawn time is fine, it is a game, and if they made it ridiculously long then i wouldnt enjoy it

Scot, It doesn't have to be spawn time. I agree with mammikoura that it doesn't really matter how it happens, but it needs to happen. Either a punishment for death (spawn times, less spawn points, what have you), or an incentive to live. Whatever makes people value their lives.

i thought that you did have a penalty if you got killed without killing or doing somthing helpful for your squad??

TheScot666 wrote:i thought that you did have a penalty if you got killed without killing or doing somthing helpful for your squad??

What, a loss of one ticket, and 1 second added to your spawn time? Yes thats a penalty but in the grand scheme of things doesn't really affect the team, and i dont really notice the extra 1 second on my spawn time at all. If thats not the penalty you were referring to, please elaborate.

xgayox wrote:Are you dense? Did you even read the rest of my post? If not GTFO with your condescending attitude and your stupid eye roll smiley. The point is that players would not be too scared to play even with long spawn.

It is a little strange you are bringing up "lifeless nerds" and people wasting so much time of their lives when we have joined at the same time yet you are sitting atop 6000 posts...

Take it easy mate. Its the internet. If you get offended at anything anyone says about your opinion then... well you're the most unoriginal person on the internet.

Answer his arguments and not his alleged condescension and maybe you two will create a positive argument and not just another a-typical internet slut fest. He added lots of good points there.

It makes sense. It isn't about how long spawns are but how close they are. 30 seconds is nothing if you have to hump it for 5 minutes to get to the enemy.

Outlawz wrote: -you choose to spawn on your RP - since it's the spawn point closest to the enemy, you get an additional 30 seconds before you can spawn on it.

-you choose to spawn on firebase/bunker; since it's a bit further but still close the the frontline, you get 15 seconds extra

-you choose to spawn on your main base - since it's the furhest point from the frontlines, there is no penalty.

I agree with this, but it should be even longer for non-main base spawns, otherwise its not really that important.