Project Reality Forums

[R-DEV]Jaymz wrote:Major bumpage going on up in here,

Unfortunately, few people are taking the linearity of how this works in proportion to how far your target is. If your target is 200m away and the settle time is only one second, then at a more common PR engagement range of 100m it will be half a second. That means "Boom Headshot" by the time you've got your sight one their head which is retarded.

That's exactly what I said!

2 seconds,thats for rapid fire 6 seconds for deliberate expecting to hit at a minimum of 300m,for the l85A2 IW anyway,gonna be different depending on the weapon

[R-DEV]Jaymz wrote:Major bumpage going on up in here,

Unfortunately, few people are taking the linearity of how this works in proportion to how far your target is. If your target is 200m away and the settle time is only one second, then at a more common PR engagement range of 100m it will be half a second. That means "Boom Headshot" by the time you've got your sight one their head which is retarded.

Minimum deviation doesn't mean laser-beam accuracy. The time deviation takes to lessen has nothing to do with range to a target, unless your going to give us 100% accuracy after the delay, which I'll bet they aren't.

Aranykai wrote:Minimum deviation doesn't mean laser-beam accuracy. The time deviation takes to lessen has nothing to do with range to a target, unless your going to give us 100% accuracy after the delay, which I'll bet they aren't.

The minimum deviation (maximum accuracy) achievable in 0.85 will be very similar to that of 0.75. So my point still stands.

Well, if you want some real world data, check out the actual field manuals for rate of fire. The Marine Rifle Squad(MCWP 3-11) says "the average rate of aimed fire a marine can deliver with a semiautomatic rifle" is 10-12 RPM for the M16. That works out to a shot every 5-6 seconds. With an effective range of 460meters, one could assume a higher rate when your talking less than half that range.

i do not have a lot of knowledge about this subject at longer ranges than 200 meters, but i have fired thousands of rounds within this limit and there is one thing that is sure, the wait time should never be above 8 and ideally should be under 6 secs. after that limit your eye begins to loose focus and begins to blink and has problems concentrating on the finer details. that's pretty much a fact that every competetive shooter would tell ya, obviously they do nothing like the army but it's a pretty good advice on when to reaquire aim.
whenever i go shooting i seem to be able to fire shots at about a rate of fire of 1 shot every 1.5 secs after i have loaded the bolt (usually i do 4 to be sure of a perfect shot), this gives you more than enough time to aquire target and shoot within 50 meters (4cm target area).
at 200m ranges it increases quite a bit, a accurate shot should be about 3-4 seconds (iron sights)although it is possible to shoot with about a .5-1 meter diameter if you shoot every 1.5 seconds. it requires about 1 second to line up the gun (at most) and aquire a target the rest is for "mastering" the shot.
this is under controlled conditions and does not necessarily fit on combat but it gives you a pretty good idea of the times required.

again I have never shot a rifle over a distance of 200m and I don't shoot with windage unless i'm out hunting so these times should fit pretty accurately on these ranges with a ironsight since there is no windage simulated ingame.
again i have never experienced combat so a MA would have to confirm these findings of mine.

hope that it helps

Ya i think it all depends on the gun, bullet size, projection, wind speed, elevation, coriolis into affect to really show how far or fast your bullet travels.

When you really think about it. If you where to hole the gun. If you drop to one knee for accuracy or go prone for max accuracy you would need to wait at least 2.5 second before pulling the trigger to allow for breathing, your momentum, and sighting up the target. then at least 2.5 seconds between shots to allow for recoil, to realign your sights and breathing before being able to fire accurately again.

to be much more than 3 second would become unrealistic. take for instance the sniper rifle. 8 seconds to allow for max accuracy.

5- 6 second for a ACOG scoped wepon with current animations.

Aranykai wrote:Well, if you want some real world data, check out the actual field manuals for rate of fire. The Marine Rifle Squad(MCWP 3-11) says "the average rate of aimed fire a marine can deliver with a semiautomatic rifle" is 10-12 RPM for the M16. That works out to a shot every 5-6 seconds. With an effective range of 460meters, one could assume a higher rate when your talking less than half that range.

That sir, is a quality source. Whomever composed that manual is a genius. I'm not talking specifically about the tactics mentioned, but mostly the way it's written.

7. Potential Firepower. The potential firepower of the 13 man squad with all members firing is conservatively estimated at 400 well-aimed rifle and automatic rifle shots or 370 well-aimed rifle and automatic rifle shots and 15 rounds from the grenade launchers per minute. The following terms are used when discussing application of fire:

a. Suppress. To degrade the enemies ability to return effective fire.

b. Neutralize. To render enemy personnel incapable of interfering with a particular operation.

c. Destroy. To render an enemy combat ineffective.

d. Support by fire. Fire on an objective that allows a maneuver element to close with the enemy.

1.5

not to long. not to short. BUT, could we please make the recoil animation as long as it? to have a hint when to fire.

[R-DEV]Jaymz wrote:Major bumpage going on up in here,

Unfortunately, few people are taking the linearity of how this works in proportion to how far your target is. If your target is 200m away and the settle time is only one second, then at a more common PR engagement range of 100m it will be half a second. That means "Boom Headshot" by the time you've got your sight one their head which is retarded.

This is incorrect. It assumes people aim like bots, which they don't.

All of these assumptions are best case scenario - if the player in question is an absolutely perfect shot who places his shots into the PERFECT center of the enemy's head. In reality people don't all aim that way, and shouldn't be punished so harshly for not doing so.

For a very long while PR has been dictating more and more how players should do mechanical tasks like aiming, take another example, losing accuracy when you move the crosshair - all this does is punish people who learned to "twitch shoot" in games (not aim at the target until the last instant before the shot, using the aiming movement to fire as well). AFAIK it's not for the DEVs to decide how people should and shouldn't be using their imperfect control devices to aim in game.

I am aware that for the above example, DEVs wanted to negate the ability to do a 180 degree turn and then fire, however this again ignores human limitations. To do a 180 degree blind turn with sights up, acquire the target, aim at him, and fire instantly is the realm of bots, aimbots and hackers - humans simply can't do it. While a soldier in real life has inertia on his weapons and can't slide around in the prone position like he can in PR, he also the ability to do all sorts of nifty things like aim in one direction and fire in another - we are forced to do both at the same time, but shouldn't be punished so harshly for having doing so.

Basically, your example doesn't lead to BOOM HEADSHOT, unless the shooter is skilled enough to aim pixel perfect, which I am OK with. People who are particularly skilled at the game should be rewarded particularly well. In real life, there is a great diversity of skill levels within soldiers, and the best way to model that is to let the individual skills of players be replicated in their mechanical tasks in PR. It's to tighten up most types of deviation and stop protecting bad players from their ineptitude. I don't think it will be 0.6 because we have crappy sprint, suppression, bad grenades and changes to optics. Defensive tactics will still have a place, and good squad work will still be rewarded if solid tactics are used (ie. six people moving together will not be at an advantage because they can mass their musket fire to actually hit targets, or to always kill a lone enemy before he kills more than one of their's - they will be at an advantage because they have so much tactical flexibility in terms of covering arcs or setting up suppression and flanks or storming positions from multiple sides, or providing cover in open areas)...

I've been to the austrian army - our rifle is (the very precise) STG77 (one of the most sold rifles in the world).

100 m: 10 shots < 12 seconds --> circle of 10 - 15 cm
200 m: 10 shots < 20 seconds --> circle of 30 - 45 cm
300 m: 10 shots < 30 seconds --> circle of 75 - 100 cm

its not realistic to need more then 0,5-1 sec. to repeatedly hit targes <100 m away (lets say: 85 % of all PR targets). for 100 m 7 out of 10 shots would be headshots if the enemy's standing still.
i think in at least 9 out of 10 shots EVERYBODY would be able to hit an enemy body at 100-130 m.

if the first shot hits, the others will too...

rough77 wrote:I've been to the austrian army - our rifle is (the very precise) STG77 (one of the most sold rifles in the world).

100 m: 10 shots < 12 seconds --> circle of 10 - 15 cm
200 m: 10 shots < 20 seconds --> circle of 30 - 45 cm
300 m: 10 shots < 30 seconds --> circle of 75 - 100 cm

its not realistic to need more then 0,5-1 sec. to repeatedly hit targes <100 m away (lets say: 85 % of all PR targets). for 100 m 7 out of 10 shots would be headshots if the enemy's standing still.
i think in at least 9 out of 10 shots EVERYBODY would be able to hit an enemy body at 100-130 m.

if the first shot hits, the others will too...

i respect you have good experience compared to what i have, but would those numbers be the same when not with range conditions ? ie with adrenaline, fear, tiredness of combat

rough77 wrote:I've been to the austrian army - our rifle is (the very precise) STG77 (one of the most sold rifles in the world).

100 m: 10 shots < 12 seconds --> circle of 10 - 15 cm
200 m: 10 shots < 20 seconds --> circle of 30 - 45 cm
300 m: 10 shots < 30 seconds --> circle of 75 - 100 cm

its not realistic to need more then 0,5-1 sec. to repeatedly hit targes <100 m away (lets say: 85 % of all PR targets). for 100 m 7 out of 10 shots would be headshots if the enemy's standing still.
i think in at least 9 out of 10 shots EVERYBODY would be able to hit an enemy body at 100-130 m.

if the first shot hits, the others will too...

I'v used the the steyr aug in irish army. those figures seem right.

Maybe, but remember we are playing a game here. You can never have full fear in a game, never. Trying to replicate it with insane wait times that are not all realistic is just frustrating, for me at least.

well if not fear the other variables, im just saying rather than range conditions and full combat some where between.

Truism, I think you have serious lack of trust issues. Apply for the 0.85 open beta when the time comes and then you can comment on the newer deviation model with first hand experience. I can guarantee you you'll see that it's geared towards as much realism as we can get within the BF2 engine.

@ Psyhko : which brigade are/were you in? I'll be joining eastern reserves in Rathmines when I get back home next year.

Open beta isn't a realistic option for me. The file sizes are far too large - it costs me nearly 40 dollars every time I update PR.

To date I've spent more on PR than any other game... ^_^

I generally wait about 86400 seconds between each shot.

[R-CON]Alex6714 wrote:Maybe, but remember we are playing a game here. You can never have full fear in a game, never. Trying to replicate it with insane wait times that are not all realistic is just frustrating, for me at least.

i meant: 10 shots fireds within 12 seconds - this means one shot per 1,2 sek ensures a very good hit!
for sure the kickback is not very strong (5,56 mm)