Special Forces Kit.

[Majorpain]

I fail to see the difference between working together as a squad and taking an objective, to being a specops and destroying a FB/RP/C4'ing reinforcements and helping the team that way!

[gazzthompson]

there is no difference. but like i have said millions(exagaration) of times 90%+ of people dont use it that way, and you can destroy firebases and rps without spec ops and mine instead of c4, which IMO is better for most cases.

[Truism]

The kit is uneasy and mostly useless.

All it's really good for is the grappling hook and explosives. An engineer can replicate the explosives on a bridge with mines. The hook is nice though.

Like the Sniper class (and saying this gets me flamed on US servers all the time), both are pretty much obsolete - any effect you can have on the battlefield with them is far outweighed by the effect you could have with a regular kit performing more regular functions. If you really must do things they are designed for, you can do them as or nearly as efficiently with either other request kits (IE LAT and HAT are better at sniping) or with standard kits (Optics Rifleman or Officer are normally better than Spec Ops or Sniper for recon and spotting - enemies can't capture it, it has a weapon that can effectively ambush people at medium range if they are at risk of spotting you and the Officer kit gets SOFLAMS, which are largely unneeded for good pilots anyway - markers work better anywho).

In other words, no, Spec Ops doesn't really have much of a place in PR at all. It will be interesting to see if the changes can fix the conceptual problems with two classes that to function effectively need to be straight out better than other classes (leet haxxor etc) at most tasks (that is to say that Snipers are actually better at aiming than normal troops - 6 seconds begone, and Spec Ops don't just get extra equipment, they get heaps more training in CQB and other cool stuff that just straight out makes them meaner to fight against).

[Waaah_Wah]

The kit is uneasy and mostly useless.

All it's really good for is the grappling hook and explosives. An engineer can replicate the explosives on a bridge with mines. The hook is nice though.

Like the Sniper class (and saying this gets me flamed on US servers all the time), both are pretty much obsolete - any effect you can have on the battlefield with them is far outweighed by the effect you could have with a regular kit performing more regular functions. If you really must do things they are designed for, you can do them as or nearly as efficiently with either other request kits (IE LAT and HAT are better at sniping) or with standard kits (Optics Rifleman or Officer are normally better than Spec Ops or Sniper for recon and spotting - enemies can't capture it, it has a weapon that can effectively ambush people at medium range if they are at risk of spotting you and the Officer kit gets SOFLAMS, which are largely unneeded for good pilots anyway - markers work better anywho).

In other words, no, Spec Ops doesn't really have much of a place in PR at all. It will be interesting to see if the changes can fix the conceptual problems with two classes that to function effectively need to be straight out better than other classes (leet haxxor etc) at most tasks (that is to say that Snipers are actually better at aiming than normal troops - 6 seconds begone, and Spec Ops don't just get extra equipment, they get heaps more training in CQB and other cool stuff that just straight out makes them meaner to fight against).

Hahah, whaaaaat?? Sure, if you have a supply crate under you and your enemies are blind, deaf and retarded.

Btw, a destroyed bridge is always better than a mined bridge. Atleast when we have mines that stick out like a penis on a mans forehead when placed on bridges.

[Solid Knight]

The HAT makes a good sniping weapon. You can wipe out not only vehicles by clusters of infantry in one shot. I'm sure somebody is going to say "But the HAT is for use against armor!" Au contraire, the SRAW was designed with a direct fire mode (what you use in the game) with urban combat in mind--so you could blow up enemies holed up in a building or against snipers. You can see it being done all over youtube.

On topic, I'd agree that the Spec-Ops class doesn't have any real advantages which pretty much makes his class pointless. The problem is in order to make him useful you'd have to give something to him to make him useful which in turn would get half the PR community upset because the Spec-Ops class is now worthwhile which in turn will make people want to play as Spec-Ops which undoubtly will include people who suck at playing the game.

[Rudd]

If you have the ammo, why not

[Spec]

Spec Ops... I still say give him a silenced submachinegun instead of silenced pistol and rifle. Good for defense and stealth, but worthless for attacking. Will get those using the kit without actually using stealth get killed fast. Pistols could be replaced with something useful. The trip flares perhaps, instead of the engineer having those... Maybe even a breaching shotgun (Or slams with the effect of the shotgun but lower radius). Something that fits with the stealth and destroy thing...

And: Change the name of the class. Something without the word "special". Something that just doesnt sound as cool... vanguard or something... hard to find a good term...

But well, not the first time I say this, and probably I'm wrong. But I wouldnt want to lose the class, because i think its not worse than snipers and such.

And no, despite my name (which I had long before hearing about PR), I'm not one who plays Sp3c0pz all the time.

[gazzthompson]

Btw, a destroyed bridge is always better than a mined bridge. Atleast when we have mines that stick out like a penis on a mans forehead when placed on bridges.

not always, deny the bridge as much as blowing it, get a sniper to cover the mines (LOL yea right!) or rifleman and if they do run over it blown up bridge and asset loss.

[Rudd]

you want my auto M4? you gotta pry it from my cold dead hands...

[Jaymz]

you want my auto M4? you gotta pry it from my cold dead hands...

watch me

[Solid Knight]

Eh, personally I think having a single Spec-Ops class in itself doesn't portray them accurately as they operate in squads. If they want to have Spec-Ops make a new faction, map, and game mode to reflect special operations. Or if they want to leave them mixed in then they should use that spec-ops squad idea I pitched a while back (One person selects a Spec-Ops officer kit which allows his squad members to pick a few different spec-ops kits. There's a lot more to it than that but that is the basic mechanism).

[Spec]

Yes, I agree with that. A Special Forces Community Mod would solve the problems IF balanced well (e.g. FEW tickets for the SF)

[Rudd]

^ it would be nice, but if 6 people out of 32 are on the duties assigned to current role of SF, then the front line will be severely lacking in manpower

2 or three doing it, is just right for PR's map size and player size

[Solid Knight]

^ it would be nice, but if 6 people out of 32 are on the duties assigned to current role of SF, then the front line will be severely lacking in manpower

2 or three doing it, is just right for PR's map size and player size

Yeah there would be some kinks to work out. I don't know if they can limit a squad size to something smaller than six (or just give you an awesome incentive to leave like killing you for being over the limit).

Basically the Spec-Ops would be restricted from having certain kits in their squad (no LAT, HAT, Pilot, Crewman, or Sniper). However they would get special variants of the remaining kits.

Or just restrict it to these:

Spec-Ops Officer (has M203)
Spec-Ops Engineer (has explosives)
Spec-Ops LMG (has para M249 or similar)
Spec-Ops Marksman (has SPR or similar)

Squad limit of either three or four people.

However one problem remains, what spec-opish mission are they going to complete? You'd need to give them something that only the spec-ops class could achieve (or do really well) which means you'd need maps that are designed for them in mind. Otherwise they'll just be a real kick-*** CQB team which is nothing more than a novelty.

Eh, the only thing I can think of is blowing up vital structures. Perhaps you could extend the concept from just blowing up bridges to blowing up walls/obstacles/gun emplacements that open up new routes for the rest of the team. Perhaps even make some of those structures a spawn point for the enemy team. You blow it and it's gone.

[Rudd]

iirc, the squad system is completely hardcoded, I think thats because its so heavily linked to the VOIP system

But why would you give a spec ops squad those weapons? that just looks like a normal squad with a spec ops (explosive) kit with them.

[Scot]

But why would you give a spec ops squad those weapons? that just looks like a normal squad with a spec ops (explosive) kit with them.

They could wear 1337 helmets and knee pads...

[Solid Knight]

iirc, the squad system is completely hardcoded, I think thats because its so heavily linked to the VOIP system

But why would you give a spec ops squad those weapons? that just looks like a normal squad with a spec ops (explosive) kit with them.

Well it might be possible to limit the size by forcing the extra player to pick a spec-ops kit only there are no available spec-ops kits to choose from thus preventing him from spawning.

I'd give them those weapons because the still have to defend themselves. I'm not sure when you read my post but the point was to give Spec-Ops a role in the map, something they can do to influence the game. They'll need to fight their way to their objectives at some point in time. You can't always sneak especially when the enemy wants to protect something.

By the way, doesn't anyone find it ironic that people say things like "Sounds like you want teh 1337 spec-ops kit"? I mean, isn't that what Spec-Ops is? Aren't they elite? You know, better than the average soldier?

[Waaah_Wah]

not always, deny the bridge as much as blowing it, get a sniper to cover the mines (LOL yea right!) or rifleman and if they do run over it blown up bridge and asset loss.

Much easier to remove a mine than repair a bridge...

[Rudd]

By the way, doesn't anyone find it ironic that people say things like "Sounds like you want teh 1337 spec-ops kit"? I mean, isn't that what Spec-Ops is? Aren't they elite? You know, better than the average soldier?

I think that it should be the player bringing the skill to the game, it's the same reason there is recoil on the weapons imo, you control the recoil

[Solid Knight]

I think that it should be the player bringing the skill to the game, it's the same reason there is recoil on the weapons imo, you control the recoil

Shooting is a small part of the skill... if you really want to call pointing and clicking a skill. Having less deviation isn't going to automagically make you a good player. But this is hardly the point as I wasn't referring to recoil or deviation in particular. More along the lines of equipment (IE a supressor).