Project Reality Forums

Lately, my point is - I don't know if this has been thought about or mentioned before - rally points should be available for setting only in the vicinity of a Forward Outpost - the firebase.

now that would be very interesting!

As with many of the ideas in this thread (complete removal of RPs, limited spawn from RPs etc etc) I also like the idea of not being able to place a rally close to an enemy CP.

The reason for this is because much of the time when attacking an objective if I go down and cannot be revived I find myself spawning at the RP and running as fast as I can back to my squad. I see the same thing happening with most squads.

This is of course the wrong way to do it as both in game it is less effective to advance piecemeal, and much better to attack with a whole squad around you, and in RL as well you would not see reinforcements coming up 1 at a time but in squad or platoon size to reinforce the assault.

It is so much more effective to have your squad pull back a bit, meeting in the middle with the respawning players and either attack once again as a squad or figure out a weakpoint and exploit it.

Obv. only issue is the massive cap radii of some CPs, Mestia springs to mind but on maps such as that it wouldn't be a problem anyway as you may as well then spawn at main.

I guess there are many different ways of doing it, although the general consensus atm seems to be that removing or re-thinking the game mechanics of rallys is the way to go, so I guess its down to the Devs to figure out which method would create the most balanced and enjoyable yet realistic way of implementing it.

[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:happens with every 'major' gameplay change, and is usually why we keep these changes low key because we know its the apocalypse each time anything is changed, even though players adapt in a very rapid fashion and most are not even bothered by the change hehe

The argument over logistics was unbelieveably funny. We were still in beta and this massive argument was raging about how terrible the game was going to be with the new logistics system. 0.85 came out a week later and there has barely been a mention of the logistics other than, 'ye i quite like it'





Not sure what I think about the RP removals. On the one hand it would make people play more cautiously in enemy held ground, and build firebases more (assuming you can still spawn on them) On the other hand, a lot of maps would be a serious pain in the arse with no RPs (Korengal!) and I think the removal would decrease the enjoyment of the casual player. Overall for public play I dont think its broken so why meddle with it?

I quite like the idea of removing RPs for CnC. Like someone said its the hardcore mode, and building FBs further and further towards the enemy base is what the objective is, so no rps would mean you have to get a fb fairly near their main in order to get a spawn close enough take it. I think that is a good solution.

How about a system like overrunning a rallypoint, except reversed. This way when a SL sets a rally, those 3 people would need to stay in a small radius (10-20m) or the rally will disappear. With this system you wouldn't be spawning in all alone and running over to your squad. Rather, you would be waiting for the squad to regroup and set a rally, so you can spawn in and move out as a squad. It would get rid of this safety net that rallies provide to squads right now, and put more importance on keeping the squad leader alive.

badmojo420 wrote:Are you forgetting that we're playing a free mod? That threat only work when the developers main goal is making money.

If the developers' aim is to make a ghost-town, then you might have a point. Personally I doubt they put in all this time and effort; to the point of jumping for joy at winning MOTY; just to please themselves and a handful of friends at the exclusion of all others. Now, I'm not saying this is all that major, or it's the straw that breaks the camel's back, etc etc.

But I do want to reiterate something I've had to repeat ad infinitum - if I wanted to experience armed service IRL, I'd join the army. I want to play a game that's *fun*; and that means skipping the boot-polishing, bracing marches, soapy all-male showers, etc etc.

When PR becomes more like a chore and less like a game, I'm off to greener pastures, and a lot of people will have the same attitude. Some of you will no doubt relish the cliquey circle-jerk that will inevitably follow - some of you will find out it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Whatever your (plural) stance on the matter; just be careful what you wish for - it might just come true.

Guys guys guys....

Going on about "omg I'll leave the game if they do X" before its been tried out = fail.

Discussion, not ultimatums!

You could have simply said "I think removing X Y and Z would result in too much time being spent out of combat, and that would be detrimental to teh gameplay" to the point, and a valid point at that.

Dr2B Rudd wrote:Guys guys guys....

Going on about "omg I'll leave the game if they do X" before its been tried out = fail.

Discussion, not ultimatums!

You could have simply said "I think removing X Y and Z would result in too much time being spent out of combat, and that would be detrimental to teh gameplay" to the point, and a valid point at that.

I was not delivering an ultimatum, but I can see why people would jump to that conclusion. My point was more that the ability of players to adapt is a non-argument. The fact that I can adapt to things that detract from gameplay doesn't nullify the fact that they detract from gameplay. I appreciate that I could've made that point clearer; but I was over-tired and in a really bad mood.

Whether this would kill the game, I dunno. No patch is an island, complete and of its own. All the plethora of changes interact to mitigate some issues, or amplify others. I was merely cautioning against the peril of being gung-ho about expecting everyone to be onboard with moving the game further away from "fun mini-mod based on real weapons and situations" towards "ultra-realism simulator that alienates a lot of *gamers*."

I see where you're coming from Ace, but i just don't think this change would hurt gameplay. In fact in my opinion the current rallypoint system is hurting gameplay. But, it's just that, my opinion. Yours is different, that's fine.

I have no problem with your views or opinions, but i'm am growing tired of constantly hearing that threat, that if the mod changes in a way people don't like, they'll take their business elsewhere. Sure, the devs want their mod to be popular, but i doubt they're willing to steer it in a direction they don't like, simply to keep the general public 100% happy.

There are better ways to express your concern.

badmojo420 wrote:I see where you're coming from Ace, but i just don't think this change would hurt gameplay.

The devil is in the detail. My main concern would be implementing in parallel to the planned nerf to revives, especially with popular opinion being in favour of reinstituting head-shot full-death.

Personally, I think the way forward is to concentrate on a ticket-economy model - if the commander could spawn transport, at the cost of ticket drain, then that would make rally points far less crucial, whilst making "cautious" gameplay (protecting tickets) much more important. Especially as it eliminates the "we've got bleed, we lose more tickets from being idle than rushing head first into combat!" mentality to a degree.

This is straying OT somewhat, but as I said, abstracting individual changes from the wider picture won't legitimately reflect how people play the game.

Take the change to civvy spawn timers as an (OT, I know) example. If anything in game gets made into a drag, players will adapt right out of playing that aspect of the game, rather than playing it in a more constrained way.

Its hard to take those changes to the revive system into account when we have no idea how exactly it will be changed. So i based my opinion solely off adding this to the current system.

As far as people adapting to the civie spawn time, i see that as a success for the devs. I started playing this mod right before it changed, so i saw first hand how civies were acting in a way that wasn't realistic. Basically throwing themselves in front of any gun fire they saw. Hell, i even jumped in and had some fun being the human shield. It wasn't the way i wanted to play, but it worked in the constraints of the game. But, since the increased spawn time, i've seen the collaborator used in the way i originally (when i first started playing) thought it was going to be used. And the unrealistic human shields are barely used.

It's not that the devs wanted to make it a drag for anyone trying to be a human shield. They made it a drag to do that, to encourage proper use of the kit. When used properly, the spawn time isn't an issue. The biggest issue surrounding civies is coalition players not caring about killing them. With the way things go now, if the civie had a regular spawn time the coalition wouldn't uncover any caches. Because the amount of dead civies would be insane. There needs to be a balance between high punishment, and number of civies. They've got the number of civies to a good spot, its just the punishment that needs some work.

Ace42 wrote:Personally, I think the way forward is to concentrate on a ticket-economy model - if the commander could spawn transport, at the cost of ticket drain, then that would make rally points far less crucial, whilst making "cautious" gameplay (protecting tickets) much more important. Especially as it eliminates the "we've got bleed, we lose more tickets from being idle than rushing head first into combat!" mentality to a degree.

This is straying OT somewhat, but as I said, abstracting individual changes from the wider picture won't legitimately reflect how people play the game.

I think that such an option as to have some control over the amount of transport available would be MORE valid when spawn is limited. Personally I think limiting spawn to the main base is a little much, and I'd much prefer (naturally) something along the lines of a more plausible system for firebases like I mentioned, maybe even keeping the rallies with a slightly overhauled system (I quite liked the idea of only being able to place them within a certain distance of firebases).

I wouldn't say anything you mentioned was off topic anyway, you can say everythings relative, but your points do relate pretty directly to the topic. I wouldn't be too pessimistic with your speculation though, cos you never know how these large overhauls will work out, as with most large gameplay changes they won't be introduced completely undiluted anyway. It would seem that the DEV team have ideas of how they want things to work out eventually, but don't wanna scare people off by changing things suddenly either. Bear in mind that major changes such as minimap removal, SL spawn removal etc were all hugely opposed and eventually alot of people decided they quite liked them despite their initial opposition too. It's fair enough to discuss what things might do to the game, but I think ruining it and destroying the fanbase is a little much, especially given that overall the fanbase has increased over the years.

Ok just at OP, I wouldn't call them "convenient spawns" considering you can wait up to 90 seconds watching a black screen or alt tabbed. Until the close spawns are removed you need to have spawn times to keep people away from each other.

Interesting but it would be more of a test than any actual fun to play that kind of mode, it would just be Walk Simulator v2.0

If you die 10 times in a game that can be up to 10 minutes of black screen time. And there's lots of ways around the endless walking situation as well. Because when people all respawn at main or firebases then transports actually have a consistent task to complete, and a consistent location to travel to as well.

Rally points really do screw up a lot more than they help. I've already mentioned the logistics problem, but think about how it affects the fighting itself. Pretty much all tactics go right out the window while you have rally points set up, and ultimately you're playing a slow motion version of regular BF2.

I've played from 0.65 all the way to 0.8 and I think I set rally points maybe 20% of the rounds I played. And the same goes for my buddies as well. Don't think I am just asking people to do something I've never done. I have done it often, and its much better. And really any perception of this being "mean" would be gone if there were no spawn times.

• Remove Rally Points.
• Set spawn times to 0 - 3 seconds.
• When ANY enemy gets within 250m of an outpost it is disabled. (you don't just respawn to join the firefight. When you get taken out you're removed from that battle. Dead people don't kill living people)

See respawning mid firefight completely eliminates the need for tactics at all. Think of how much better suppression would work if you knew you were not coming back in 30 seconds?

So much of warfare is based on the idea of death being pretty permanent, and my idea is you get a "new" soldier instead of reviving and teleporting back in as the same one. And the best way to do that is to have everyone start back at the maps insertion point, or possibly a firebase.

This is very basic. Even in paintballing you've got to walk back to your base or the flag or something.

Having a need for squad members to be around or near a rally for their 'dead' to respawn is a good idea. It makes the rally points more like rally points. So that if most of the squad is lost during a fire fight, they regroup on a rally, allowing their buddies to return so they cans start off again.

It makes people want to live, not dying to the last man since it benefits the squad if they live.

Also I've never thought of it that way, but it's true; Rally points do make PR into slow motion BF2. You die, you respawn and immediately run around trying to find the guy who killed you. That's exactly what I did today.

One question though, what are the 'dead' players supposed to do when the final spawn point goes down. If I had died as wasn't allowed to spawn any more, I'd feel frustrated that I couldn't participate any more. Or at least until my team fought the enemy off.

Otherwise the idea sounds pretty solid.

I still don't like idea of removing RP though I've been thinking about it.

But something like this would be nice:

- 3 enemies 50 meters far from the rally will make it disappear immediately (this forces players to place rallies in safer locations, the 10 sec timer just isn't enough)
- Rally cannot be placed too close on enemy CP (200m on 1km maps, 350m on 2km maps and 500m on 4km maps, for insurgency uncappable insurgent flags on critical places like Al Basrah mosque would be good)
- Put normal spawn time for rallies to 50 seconds, with a player near the rally reducing it by 15 seconds, up to 2 players (other spawn times should still be 30 sec, if it's just possible)

And if any changes will be made, the problem with reviving wounded (you have "search" for the right spot where you can revive him, happens if body moves after death) have to be fixed or amount of epipens increased. Just to avoid frustration.

I think if you did what CAS said and removed RPs but replaced them with a very marginal spawn time then I'd be pretty happy. That time is made up for in getting yourself back on the field (not necessarily by walking) and I'd rather that, which is actually fun cos it requires some tactical decision making as to how your gonna reinsert yourself, then staring at a black screen.

If you introduced that simultaneously with what was mentioned by ace about having a degree of customisation when it comes to transport spawning then I reckon that would have a decent effect on gameplay without turning the mod into "walk simulator 2".

Yes, it would actually make sense to decrease spawntime if RPs were removed. Though I'm unsure how the insurgents would be affected.

also capping the last flag on any map with people spawning 3 seconds after u shot them could cause problems

gazzthompson wrote:also capping the last flag on any map with people spawning 3 seconds after u shot them could cause problems

I'm not so sure anymore, since most main base flags aren't in the actual main base anymore. e.g. qwai, the flag is on the hill next to main. or EJOD, gas station and north desert are the flags.