Project Reality Forums

I've fired both weapons. In my experience the AK was harder to use--comparatively of course. I hate the sights as it takes more of a mental effort to use them and the gun tends to shift a lot more when fired. While I will not argue that you can't achieve a good level of accuracy (or rather consistency) with the AK; I just find that it takes a bit more practice than the AR15. My point is really that the AR15 is easier to work with baring maintenance.

JKJudgeX wrote:required viewing

Thanks for posting. Thats a very educational video. Such information as these may save our life one day even in civilian world.

I now know how weak the 5.56mm rounds are against such cover as cinder blocks. I mean 19 meter? It can't even penetrate bricks used in civilian housing from 45 degree angle at 19 meter. Although it penetrated brick-manekin-wall-manekin when shot from straight on. It seems light and fast caliber are vulnerable against hard cover such as bricks.

But looking at test resuslts of full size rifle round it penetrates brickwall-vest-wall-wall an entire structure. Now I wonder if it was any useful hiding behind those brick houses when WWII soldiers were fighting. These are very nice knowledge to gain.

here penetration video
Ak47 number one combat rifle
M16 number two



You see that Ak47 have more penetration then M16
M16 only has faster firing speed then Ak47 and little accuracy

hiberNative wrote:the second youtube link seems to have been removed.

i've never shot an ak47, but from what i've understood, ammo has a noticeable effect on grouping. i've also understood that there's a slight difference comparing top shelf ammunition in western stores through a gun you might own.

now visualize maltreated ak47s with old surplus or leftover ammunition from the afghan war ;P

Yea, but never or even close to the extent of inaccuracy of AK47 in PR

M16 isnt Accurate as many people think... the ar caliber is very small, that makes it inaccurate when it comes to wind changes and anything that is in the air, its pritty easy to change the direction of the bullet and it have low stoping and penetrate power, only good at unarmed people like civilians. And dont talk about the logistic what it needs, but u know it all. But m16 bullet is pritty quick but thats all, quick and cute.
Ak is for real men, in this mod is it about not how real its get, its about it would be great if it was real^^

Taliban-IED wrote:M16 isnt Accurate as many people think... the ar caliber is very small, that makes it inaccurate when it comes to wind changes and anything that is in the air, its pritty easy to change the direction of the bullet and it have low stoping and penetrate power, only good at unarmed people like civilians. And dont talk about the logistic what it needs, but u know it all. But m16 bullet is pritty quick but thats all, quick and cute.

sources please, not just opinionated claims

If you are trying to fight a long range battle with the unscoped insurgent classes... you are doing it wrong. The AK accuracy is fine. I still use it often as insurgent and Chechen. You have to maneuver in close to use it effectively.

Hay there i coming from Slovenia and in the army we used a AK47 by Zastava, couse is the best AK47 with little bit longer barrel. We were shooting at 100 300 and 500 meters, its all deadly. But we also test other Nato weapons, and we came to conclusion that AK47 have more penetraiting power but has less accurency at 300 and 500 meters. Also we came to concl. that if u are hit By AK47 is not deadly as M16/M4, couse have longer and ticker bullets (5.56mm). Ak47 have exit wound behind impact point, wound is much less complicated for healing then with M16 couse has impact points in lower torso end exit wounds is near neck. Ak47 is better at close range against infantry with body armour.
Solute

Perhaps the reduced accuracy is to represent the Insurgents lack of marksmanship training?

Do the Chechen AK's have reduced accuracy as well?

Taliban-IED wrote:M16 isnt Accurate as many people think... the ar caliber is very small, that makes it inaccurate when it comes to wind changes and anything that is in the air, its pritty easy to change the direction of the bullet and it have low stoping and penetrate power, only good at unarmed people like civilians. And dont talk about the logistic what it needs, but u know it all. But m16 bullet is pritty quick but thats all, quick and cute.
^^

hear that stright from the torrorist's mouth lol, just kinding, i agree the 223 is out of date it was made for the cold war times have changed.


The 223, was designed really on the premise of the findings that most engagement take place around 300m, so the army did not care about exceeding those parameter’s. second they wanted the bullets to be light, so the solder could easily be able to carry extra ammunition. And also the finding's that the more rounds fired increases the chance of fatality,
so going by that logic
So being able to carry more Ammo and fire at high rates of fire more accurately then the Russians that really was the whole idea.

Taliban-IED wrote:M16 isnt Accurate as many people think... the ar caliber is very small, that makes it inaccurate when it comes to wind changes and anything that is in the air, its pritty easy to change the direction of the bullet and it have low stoping and penetrate power, only good at unarmed people like civilians. And dont talk about the logistic what it needs, but u know it all. But m16 bullet is pritty quick but thats all, quick and cute.
Ak is for real men, in this mod is it about not how real its get, its about it would be great if it was real^^

In "reality" a 5.56 round has more chance of killing you because it moves twice as fast as a 7.62. When the 5.56 hits you the rear end of the bullet which weighs more than the front tumbles through the body causing multiple terrible injuries.
A 7.62 will penatrate more armour at longer ranges though, the fact is 5.56 is the superior anti-personnel round.

Just a quick question; is the ak47 in 0.860 the same for everybody as in Taliban, militia and insurgents or do insurgents get a “nerfed” version in terms of accuracy?

i have fired both the (civilian versions) the M4 and AK47. there is definately more recoil for the AK but not that much more. what also obvious is how much more powewrful and destructive the the 7.62x39 round is compared to the .223 (5.56).

in my experience in Las Vegas desert shooting, within 100 yards there is no difference in accuracy between the M4 and AK47. what should be different to balance the AK from the M4 is not change accuracy, but to reduce the amount ammo carried by INS, Chechnya militia, or Taliban.

i think the US military is admitting the shortcommings of the .223 (5.56) and that is why they are developing new rifles for the new 6.8mm round. it is less powerful than the 7.62x39 (AK47 round) but more powerful than the M4/M16 5.56 round.

LEFT = new 6.8mm, RIGHT = outdated 5.56mm

The AK47 can reach a good 1 MOA if you have enough money to handpick barrels, you've got a milled receiver, and you handload. Maybe even sub-MOA on a good day. But all of this accuracy disappears after about 200 yards.


The M16 has new bullets and barrels that can make the rounds keep MOA or sub-MOA out to 700 or so yards, but it isn't deadly. M16s don't have that "shred the body" effect after about 125 meters with M855. With Mk. 262 it's much better, at the expense of barely having good material penetration.

For a M193-type deadliness for things like personal defense, Hornady TAP in 7.62 NATO takes the cake, even though it too sucks at going through walls.

In general, accuracy comes down to a few factors:

1. The person. This one is the biggest.

2. Ammo.

3. Barrel.

4. Bolt should be rotating, otherwise vertical stringing is probably going to happen.

5. Trigger needs to be light, consistent, and should break like a glass rod.

The AK and M16 both can have these, you just have to spend money. With the M16 it's much easier, and it can be much more consistent. In combat the person shooting is the major factor and all the others don't matter much, since you're blasting in relatively close ranges for the rest to not matter too much.

Hunt3r wrote:The AK47 can reach a good 1 MOA if you have enough money to handpick barrels, you've got a milled receiver, and you handload. Maybe even sub-MOA on a good day. But all of this accuracy disappears after about 200 yards.

References...

-REad

[R-CON]ReadMenace wrote:References...

-REad

Sure.

The stated accuracy of the Swiss Arms 55x series. A very well-known AK variant. Those easily shoot sub-MOA with 5.56. I'm sure it's the same with any 5.45 AK.

If you think about it, the AK can be made accurate.

The Robinson Arms XCR, which is also an AK style rifle (look beneath the tacti-cool rails and whatnot), and has a very similar bolt and gas system. The rifle is known to shoot 1-2 MOA with a 7.62x39 conversion kit.

Test on the 7.62x39 XCR accuracy?

The fact is that most 7.62x39 ammo is pretty low quality. not designed to be accurate. Handloading your own ammo can usually result in some spectacular groups.

Even if it is possible, it is certainly pointless. Insurgents don't have any money to get special match bullets and custom handload per gun, free-floating the barrel, and all of that stuff.

For Project Reality's purposes the accuracy of the AK should be about 3-4 MOA. That's the practical accuracy of the AK.

In a nutshell, it is possible to shoot sub-MOA with 7.62x39 as the round used, even with AKs. You just need lots of money to get it there. People have made FALs shoot sub-MOA, but it took thousands of dollars to get there.

The AK type rifles in PR are a joke, I have a wasr 10 type rifle and can consistently hit 100 yard man sized targets with ease in real life using normal, wolf 7.62x39 fmj ammunition and iron sights. In PR it's difficult to hit a vehicle at 100 yards with one.

Hunt3r wrote:Sure.

The stated accuracy of the Swiss Arms 55x series. A very well-known AK variant. Those easily shoot sub-MOA with 5.56. I'm sure it's the same with any 5.45 AK.

If you think about it, the AK can be made accurate.

The Robinson Arms XCR, which is also an AK style rifle (look beneath the tacti-cool rails and whatnot), and has a very similar bolt and gas system. The rifle is known to shoot 1-2 MOA with a 7.62x39 conversion kit.

Test on the 7.62x39 XCR accuracy?

The fact is that most 7.62x39 ammo is pretty low quality. not designed to be accurate. Handloading your own ammo can usually result in some spectacular groups.

Even if it is possible, it is certainly pointless. Insurgents don't have any money to get special match bullets and custom handload per gun, free-floating the barrel, and all of that stuff.

For Project Reality's purposes the accuracy of the AK should be about 3-4 MOA. That's the practical accuracy of the AK.

In a nutshell, it is possible to shoot sub-MOA with 7.62x39 as the round used, even with AKs. You just need lots of money to get it there. People have made FALs shoot sub-MOA, but it took thousands of dollars to get there.

Speculation bad, references good.

First -- you're original post cited the AK47 as being able to achieve 1-MOA. Second, calling a Sig55X a variant of the AK47 is disingenuous. Yes the Sig55x action is derived from the Kalashnikov system but has had numerous improvements that aide in accuracy -- Wait, this doesn't matter as we're talking about the AK47. Furthermore, discussion of the cartridge or other riflesis not pertinent to the discussion, as none of these are the rifle in question.

YES, the AK47 is an effective combat weapon in many situations -- distant, accurate fire is not one.

The current PR incarnation is still stunningly accurate.

-REad

I am really starting to like the AK47. Even pick more than AK74, and AK74u but I still love my killer PKM more. But I still don't know if the insurgents get the same AK as the other factions.

'[R-CON wrote:ReadMenace;1077957']Speculation bad, references good.

First -- you're original post cited the AK47 as being able to achieve 1-MOA. Second, calling a Sig55X a variant of the AK47 is disingenuous. Yes the Sig55x action is derived from the Kalashnikov system but has had numerous improvements that aide in accuracy -- Wait, this doesn't matter as we're talking about the AK47. Furthermore, discussion of the cartridge or other riflesis not pertinent to the discussion, as none of these are the rifle in question.

YES, the AK47 is an effective combat weapon in many situations -- distant, accurate fire is not one.

The current PR incarnation is still stunningly accurate.

-REad

Yeah tbh getting an AK47 down to 1 MOA would be hard and require lots of luck.

I have read anecdotal reports of a VEPR getting 1 MOA, and a picture of the target. So it seems possible, but personally I think it's best to give the AK right now about 3 MOA accuracy.

Besides, the cartridge will shoot patterns instead of groups after about 350 yards.