Project Reality Forums

Why does it need class limitation? I keep asking that and there hasnt been a sensible answer yet.

Are we all that dumb that we need a helping hand chooseing the right kit, to be honest if that many people dont know how to work as a team then mabye your right but so far ive seen around 60-70% of people work as a team after playing a couple of rounds.

A person is smart, people are not. Hell, there are laws for keeping your seatbelt on, wearing a life jacket on a boat, and wearing a helmet, and your asking me why is it necessary to have kit limits? It's simple, everyone uses the two kits that are easiest to use: the sniper and support kits. While I think the two classes are fine, they should be limited. In the video game world teamwork is something that MUST be strongly encouraged even if it takes force in some areas (Such as kit limitations).
I've given you proof, a successful, realistic mod, that implemented what I am suggesting and it worked. As of right now PRMM is mostly swamped with PEOPLE who use the support & sniper kit. PRMM's main goal is to be a realistic mod, need I say more?

To the people that do not understand why class-limits work (Burning Mustache etc) please play Red Orchestra - Ostfront. This might sound simplistic but it's really not. Sure, sometimes you get a bad/noob sniper. But so what? It's not the end of the world. it's actually kind of realistic, I assume not all real-life snipers are good snipers. The pros overwhelm the cons. RO imo opinion has an unsurpassed gameplay. It's extremely well balanced and fun to play. It rewards skill and intelligence. I don't want to sound like a total fanboy, but it's hard not too. It the best FPS in the genre by far.

I do understand your points about the frustration of having limited classes being occupied by retards, but trust me, the alternative (which we are suffering through now) is worse. The FH2-solution (which obviously is possible within the BF2-egine) seems to be a great solution. It enhances gameplay and stimulates teamwork (by stimulating the creation of squads).

There is a kind of inflation now with the classes. Anyone can be sniper, and most are, which leads to the devaluation of the class, not to mention the by now repeated gameplay issues. Being "The Sniper" you should feel like you have an important role to play, just like when you play any other role (medic, engineer, specops etc). This is not the case today.

Take medics for example. I often find myself completely surrounded by medics yet no one comes to my aid because they all assume someone else of the nearby medics will do the job. Being a medic you should ideally feel like the lifeline of your fellow soldiers that you are. It's the same with snipers.

Let's say I'm a sniper covering for my squad advancing on a street. They all know I'm behind them covering their ***. Then let's say an enemy tries to flank them and I take him out. I helped them out and they knew it. Without class-limits today it's just chaos. Either the guy doesn't get any help at all because all snipers are lonewolfs alone in their own squad, or the guy flanking get's totally blown to pieces by 20 sniper-rounds coming from all directions.

Somewhat exaggerated examples to prove my point, but still.

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote:A person is smart, people are not.

Which is the BEST argument against class limits.
Eventually, "people" will occupy the important classes, thereby crippling the team.

To the people that do not understand why class-limits work (Burning Mustache etc) please play Red Orchestra - Ostfront.

I understand how class limits work, which is exactly why I don't want to see them in PR. Granted, I never played RO, and it may certainly be a fun game, but I can't see this contributing to PR more than my way of approaching this problem.

I do understand your points about the frustration of having limited classes being occupied by retards, but trust me, the alternative (which we are suffering through now) is worse.

I guess it comes down to personal preference there.
To me, like I said, I'd rather have a squad of 5 DEDICATED snipers than a squad of 2 ATs and 3 Engineers dicking around because people don't want to play this role or crippling the team because the team relies on them but they are unable to do the job, whilst an experienced player would be READY and WILLING to do their job, yet he can't because the slots are already occupied.

I am already getting pissed by dumbfucks in my squad playing medic and not reviving me, yet with the current system, there is always the chance of an experienced player ALSO going to spawn as medic and doing their job. With a class limit, you take this ability away from the good, experienced players, who are ready and willing to participate in teamwork.

Game balancing issues in a realism mod should NOT punish those willing to sacrifice themselves for the team and putting effort in teamwork (which a class limit would do), but it should punish those who play ridicolously stupid and unrealistic.

Again, like I said in my previous post, this should be achieved via the overall game dynamics.
If a team CHOOSES to play ONLY with snipers and support guys, LET THEM.
They won't win.
And if they do, the overall game dynamics are broken and need to be reconsidered.

In real life (which this mod is supposed to aim for) a "team" placed entirely on rooftops with snipers / machine guns might hold the position for a while and score a few kills, after a while though, the enemy will use choppers / artillery to bomb the **** out of them.
You can do exactly that in PR, because you are given the opportunity to.

Eventually, this team will TOTALLY lose and after a while, players will realize that having 20 snipers in a squad is NOT the way to win, and people will adapt.
Again, look at Counterstrike.

People have been playing this game for years and they have found out that the best way to win is by using only 3 out of about 20 available weapons, because the overall game dynamics encourage this behaviour.

If PR would encourage life-like behavoir (which it does for the most part, sans some imbalanced maps like Muttrah City, which will eventually be balanced out too), people would form realistic, diverse squads by themselves.

Bonus: You, as an experienced player can still make up for a bunch of newbies who are unable to play their role by taking their classes.

Really, I do NOT see a point in a class limit other than limiting / pissing off those players who actually try to contribute to the game.

About the "feeling special as the only class";
IF a team works together nicely and evens up the classes by themselves, there won't be more than one sniper / AT per squad anyway, so YOU have the chance to choose this role and YOU have a lot of responsibility - whilst still keeping the chance for another, experienced player open to aid you in this task.

hachichin wrote: Take medics for example. I often find myself completely surrounded by medics yet no one comes to my aid because they all assume someone else of the nearby medics will do the job. Being a medic you should ideally feel like the lifeline of your fellow soldiers that you are. It's the same with snipers.

This is exactly my point!
The problem is, people will try to choose the class they want to play, always.
If they can (without class limit), they will just play along and **** around, or, if they are good players, put some effort into it and heal the **** out of their teammates / cover and spot like hell as a sniper, you name it.
Just because Larry McDumbfuck is the only one who is able to play a sniper right now, this fact won't affect the way he plays AT ALL. He will play the way he want if he is lucky and able to play the class he currently wants to play.
If he were a good player, he would put effort into his play regardless of whether he is the only one or not.

On the other hand, if he is, in fact, Larry McDumbfuck, he won't care about the fact that he is the only one at all and continie to run around like a headless chicken, NOT contributing to the team and in addition, with a kit-lock system, block the slot for the experienced player who would otherwise take the role and play with the team.

I realize that the class-lock system will work in a team of very good and dedicated players, like you, and me, who feel responsible when they are granted and allowed to play as a sniper or a medic and who will try their best to help the team with all means possible.

The bad players, however, who don't give a fuck about teamplay, won't feel this responsibilty though, just because they're the only ones.

In addition, this creates two negative side-effects:

1) More people dicking around / teamkilling when they ARE NOT able to play the class they want ("STOOPID ENGANEEEAR!!11 I Wanna be da sniparz")

2) Newbies / dicks blocking the important classes for those would play these classes seriously.

The above two posts sum everything up nicely. Class limiting will bring more negitive things to the game then positive, and as I have mentioned you would have to have specific class limitations for every signle map in the game, what happens when you are given the AT role but theres no armor to blow up, or the engineer role when there no bridges to destroy, or what happens when you cant spawn as medic because some retard on the other side of the map in your squad is already medic?

I have yet to see any good points to this class limiting idea. Sure ive seen 3 medics on one squad and ive seen 3 snipers in one squad but it always always sorts its self out 10 minutes into the game.

david2999 wrote:Do you have a sensible answer to why PR shouldn't have it?

Is a **** atempt to avoid a question, you here it all the time with everything that people dont want to answer.

You guys also gotta think that Red Orchestra has some very nice moddable aspects of the UI that may not be exposed in BF2. So I mean that you can implement it in a way that has a higher degree of usability than you can - to my knowledge - in BF2.

In terms of the Forgotten Hope class limits, I've not played the original mod as I got rather jaded on WWII themes. I have certainly read mixed reviews on the class limiting system. In terms of FH2, that's not out yet, so I am not sure how they plan to do class limiting, but keep in mind they are a MUCH larger and more experienced mod team than we are. Control over the UI / HUD is actually quite limted in BF2, so I will be curious how well they are able to communicate to the user what classes are available and what they do to prevent the user from slecting a non available class (being spawned as a Rifleman when Snipers slots were all taken would suck if your second favorite class was not a Rifleman but was available).

This is good discussion and valuable to the PR devs and community so please keep it constructive.

egg

It's funny to me how a lot of you who are against class limitations speak only on a theoretical basis. There's a whole lot of "I think this...," "This might happen," but none of you can really back up what you're claiming. The only evidence that is clearly available is PRMM's current status, which one with out class limitations. So far, on every large server hosting PRMM, there is a lot of sniper and support kit usage. This is a fact. The only reason I can see that a lot of you are against this is because a lot of you are sniper/support users! The closest mod I have played in the Battlefield series that resembles the realism in PRMM is Forgotten Hope (Which supports class limiting!). That mod happens to be the most popular mod for BF2 right now.
So there are the FACTS, no "I thinks."

***DEVELOPMENT TEAM***
Try class limiting and do some beta testing, see how it turns out. The details on how class limiting can be done we can discuss on another post.

With that said anything else you negative people want to say?

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote:The only evidence that is clearly available is PRMM's current status, which one with out class limitations. So far, on every large server hosting PRMM, there is a lot of sniper and support kit usage. This is a fact.

Yes, on the losing team, for the most part. And on highly imbalanced maps, like the 32 player version of Muttrah City.

Really, just today I played a round on Strike at Karkand 2 with a pretty decent team.
I was in a very diverse squad consisting of Medics, Assault, Support and, if the enemy APC popped up, AT, most of the time. Same for the other squads in our team. We had about 3 snipers (of about 20 people in the team) covering the bridges (I played MEC) and our infantry squads proceeded from checkpoint to checkpoint, eventually capturing them.

The enemy team consisted of snipers for the most part.
I got shot without knowing where the enemy even was about 10 times in this game. When the US finally had just 2 more checkpoints left, pretty much the whole US team went sniping.
Guess what ?
They managed to keep their last checkpoint until the end of the round. No one of our tame made it to their base.

The MEC, however, won with about 75 tickets ahead.


Think about this.


While I agree that the current situation, as a matter of fact, is that LOTS of teams consist of snipers / support only, these teams consist of total retards who DON'T GET THE GAME.
AND THEY LOSE.

Your team is full of snipers and support, without any other infantry playing ?
Change the fucking team or find another server.

You won't get this team to play properly when you enforce them to do so, because the people who play like that are retards to begin with - so I ask you: WHY should we enable a class-limit, when the proper teams will sort it out themselves anyway, and the dumbfuck teams will lose when playing with the ridicolous 20-sniper-teams ALREADY NOW, the way the game CURRENTLY works ?

Ever heard the phrase "Never Try to Fix a Running System" ?

With that said anything else you negative people want to say?

If, after considering (after HONESTLY conseidering) and thinking about what I said, you still believe a class-limit would in ANY way benefit the gameplay of PR, then I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

EDIT: Might have to clarify: I still would like to hear what the class-limit would achieve, other than "not allowing 20 sniper / support teams because they are unrealistic".
If this is the only point, then you might wanna re-read everything I just posted in this thread, because you are totally disregarding my points.

Try class limiting and do some beta testing, see how it turns out. The details on how class limiting can be done we can discuss on another post.

Only problem I see with this is that:

a) Beta testers, in my opinion, do not represent the average player; they tend to be much more experienced and play the game the way it was intended to be played

b) It's rare enough that you can get a large enough quantity of players on a beta server to simulate an average round of PRMM

Half the people were a sniper in .1 and half the people were a support in .2; the new system WORKS and is improving class balance without limitations.

Actually I have to say this was discussed before and the answer we came up with was to make each class reliant on another class which is what 0.3 has achieved (of course with a few more tweaks it cam be improved).

Burning Mustache wrote: I understand how class limits work, which is exactly why I don't want to see them in PR. Granted, I never played RO, and it may certainly be a fun game, but I can't see this contributing to PR more than my way of approaching this problem.

If I have understood you correctly your way of approaching this is that the current situation is the "lesser of two evils" and should remain unchanged. Am I correct? If so, then my suggestion does A LOT in contributing to PR. Sure RO is WW2-themed but that doesn't really matter. It's very much a similar type of game. It strives for realism, and has both infantry and vehicle combat (although more inclined to infantry than PRMM, except for a couple of almost pure tank maps). It has a somewhat similar amount of players on each map, 32 players max, with somewhat smaller maps since there are no airplanes).

They also have their version of AAS with cap-areas having to be "unlocked", although you usually have more than one route to attack. So if you have 5 areas in total 2 of them might be open to begin with, on different fronts allowing for multiple strategies.

I guess it comes down to personal preference there.
To me, like I said, I'd rather have a squad of 5 DEDICATED snipers than a squad of 2 ATs and 3 Engineers dicking around because people don't want to play this role or crippling the team because the team relies on them but they are unable to do the job, whilst an experienced player would be READY and WILLING to do their job, yet he can't because the slots are already occupied.

Honestly, how often have you encountered a squad of 5 DEDICATED snipers? You are making it sound like people play well and for the team just because they get to pick their favourite kit. This is not the case, atleast not on the European servers I play at, and it hasn't been the case the few times I played on American servers either.

And I can't see why people would just run around shooting at the sky because they can't become snipers. They would probably whine for a while and then either disconnect or play as something else. In the long run this would probably have some of them realize there is more to this game than sniping. They can pretend they are Rambo or something instead of Mr. Über-Sniper. If someone start to TK they would be kicked or banned like TKers today. That's more of an issue with server-settings and active admins.

The retards will be retarded no matter if they can play as snipers or not, and the good teamwork-oriented players who have realized the incredibly superior gaming experience teamwork delivers - they will not change because they cannot play as sniper even though they would like too. It's not an either/or-situation. The difference between the two modes (class-limits vs ffa) is that the retards will mostly be retarded assaulters and not retarded snipers, thus increasing the level of realism. As assaults they won't lie on roofs in a corner of the map, atleast not a majority of them like today.

I am already getting pissed by dumbfucks in my squad playing medic and not reviving me, yet with the current system, there is always the chance of an experienced player ALSO going to spawn as medic and doing their job. With a class limit, you take this ability away from the good, experienced players, who are ready and willing to participate in teamwork.

Game balancing issues in a realism mod should NOT punish those willing to sacrifice themselves for the team and putting effort in teamwork (which a class limit would do), but it should punish those who play ridicolously stupid and unrealistic.

Well, it's not as simple as that. You have a point, but remember that the current situation will also lead "teamwork-players" to avoid playing as medics because there are already 15 cs-kids doing that on the server. So as it is today you might end up with 15 worthless medics, which isn't as useful as 5 dedicated ones.

My solution if this would be possible to implement with the engine is that you would have to be tied to a squad to be able to spawn as Medic. And if the Squadleader receives complaints or is disapproving of his medic's performance he could kick him out of the squad thus freeing the Medic-slot for someone else who hopefully will do a better job helping out.

About the punishing-aspect. In some situations yes, a class-limit will "punish" a teamplayer although it will punish the bad players more (and more often). This is the thing. Nothing is perfect. Teamplayers are constantly punished today by having to play on a map with 70% snipers.

Again, like I said in my previous post, this should be achieved via the overall game dynamics.
If a team CHOOSES to play ONLY with snipers and support guys, LET THEM.
They won't win.
And if they do, the overall game dynamics are broken and need to be reconsidered.

But explain to me how you would solve these problems via the "overall game dynamics" if you don't have some kind of class-limiting.

And of course the team with 100% snipers will not win, but they will succeed in ruining the game-experience for everyone but themselves. Winning is not important, this is a game after all. I couldn't care less if I win an overwhelming victory on Jungle Fever if my team consists of 10 more players and all on the opposing sides play as snipers. It's just 2 mins of absolute boredom.

In real life (which this mod is supposed to aim for) a "team" placed entirely on rooftops with snipers / machine guns might hold the position for a while and score a few kills, after a while though, the enemy will use choppers / artillery to bomb the **** out of them.
You can do exactly that in PR, because you are given the opportunity to.

Eventually, this team will TOTALLY lose and after a while, players will realize that having 20 snipers in a squad is NOT the way to win, and people will adapt.
Again, look at Counterstrike.

In real life you can get court-martialed. And you don't get to respawn if killed. Again, what is the point of winning if there is no real challenge.

And no, people will not adapt. These morons do not care if their team wins or loses. They just want to take the helicopter, land it on a roof and then stay there for the rest of the round killing nothing but their inbred counter-parts on the other team doing the exact same thing on the opposing rooftop.

CS is not relevant. It's a very different game, mostly due to the map-design and size.

If PR would encourage life-like behavoir (which it does for the most part, sans some imbalanced maps like Muttrah City, which will eventually be balanced out too), people would form realistic, diverse squads by themselves.

Wishful thinking I'm afraid.

Really, I do NOT see a point in a class limit other than limiting / pissing off those players who actually try to contribute to the game.

Try RO. You can purchase it for 25 dollars off Steam. It's very much worth the money. Play it for a while so you understand it, then think about what it would be like with no class-limits.

About the "feeling special as the only class";
IF a team works together nicely and evens up the classes by themselves, there won't be more than one sniper / AT per squad anyway, so YOU have the chance to choose this role and YOU have a lot of responsibility - whilst still keeping the chance for another, experienced player open to aid you in this task.

That's a pretty big if, which makes the argument irrelevant. If there were no morons playing computer games we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Eden wrote:Actually I have to say this was discussed before and the answer we came up with was to make each class reliant on another class which is what 0.3 has achieved (of course with a few more tweaks it cam be improved).

Exactly what I've suggested all along. I think arguing in favor of class limitations is counter-productive to talking about improving the existing system.

And I've played quite a bit of RO, its an excellent game, but since we don't need people using unscoped bolt-action rifles for historic accuracy in PR and SAW's aren't platoon-level weapons, I don't think RO is a good comparison.

This is exactly my point!
The problem is, people will try to choose the class they want to play, always.
If they can (without class limit), they will just play along and **** around, or, if they are good players, put some effort into it and heal the **** out of their teammates / cover and spot like hell as a sniper, you name it.
Just because Larry McDumbfuck is the only one who is able to play a sniper right now, this fact won't affect the way he plays AT ALL. He will play the way he want if he is lucky and able to play the class he currently wants to play.
If he were a good player, he would put effort into his play regardless of whether he is the only one or not.

Yes, you are correct, but you are not seeing my point. Of course if the retard is lucky enough to be one of the few snipers this will not change his worthless way of playing.

The point is that if he DOESN'T get to be sniper this WILL change his play. Being an assault he will have to assault, or atleast make a pathetic attempt. He can't lie prone in that water-tower with his M16 hoping to score kills by shooting idle players spawning on the other side of the map.

To reward for the good players is a more realistic battlefield, aswell as cannonfodder lessening the chance of themselves getting killed. You can use all the former snipers as human shields while you are going for that flag on Muttrah. You won't be alone anymore, but will have 10, albeit worthless, players around you to divert enemy fire.

'[R-CON wrote:NikovK']And I've played quite a bit of RO, its an excellent game, but since we don't need people using unscoped bolt-action rifles for historic accuracy in PR and SAW's aren't platoon-level weapons, I don't think RO is a good comparison.

Oh, come on. In what way would the fact that the SAW isn't platoon-level change anything regarding the comparison? That's just trivia. The equivalent class of the bolt-action classes of Schutze and Strelok in RO would be the Assault-class of PR.

And Tripwire didn't make the majority of players bolt-action soldiers out of historic necessity. They did this both because it would be realistic AND for what kind of gameplay it would lead to.

SAW is a Squad Automatic Weapon. Crew-served weapons like the MG-42 are platoon level. So while RO focuses on platoon-level combat in which one or two MG's and a half-dozen SMGs are expected in the unit, PR focuses on modern squad-level combat where every squad has assault rifles and a SAW, that is, StG-44's and an MG-34. In RO if you are a rifleman you are the low man on the totem pole expected to plink from cover or stab SMG users, in PR if you have a rifle you are either a life-saving medic or armed with a grenade launcher and ammo kits. In RO there were no medics or repair medics or ammo resuppliers, in PR there are. Because of the teamwork dynamics, flexible battlefield and constant class reform PR levels pre-fixing their kits to certain limits will cramp the flexibility of play and possibly result in imbalances between faction weapons we didn't see coming.

PR is a game, not a simulator, and half of the clan-level game is matching your kit loadouts to the enemy disposition. Forcing kit limits would prevent a dedicated anti-tank squad, or machine-gunner's squad, or specops squad, from forming, unless these squads were pre-designated. Then we have to get into level designers plotting out the squad build for hundreds of games to come without fudging it up...

Its not practical, we've been down this road, the DEVs chose game design and balance over kit limits and I commend them for the harder, but far better, road.

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote:I've got just two words for those of you who doubt class limitations will work or are necessary, Forgotten Hope. They implemented it and it worked beautifully. It worked so well in fact, they are implementing it in their BF2 version as well. It gave the mod a whole new feel and best of all it made it more realistic. I leave the details up to PRMM on how to implement kit limitation but as far as the question as to do it, it should be obvious. PRMM NEEDS KIT LIMITS!

-Spanish

What he said!

Simple terms:

PRMM now:

Tank shows up, kills maybe a few people, then is gang raped by respawning ATs coming in from every direction. Then the hulk of the tank is dry humped by the pack of 10 AT gunners.

These 10 AT gunners get picked off by a quality sniper who is trying to play realistically, they respawn as 10 snipers and simply overwhelm the lone sniper into submission then dry hump his dead body.

Then the 10 decide to assault a flag, they die and respawn as 10 SAW gunners and so on and so on ad infinitum. And players of this mod who fancy themselves as realism buffs to any degree think this is okay. They dont want this changed. Its downright laughable.

PRMM with class limitations:

A tank shows up and kills a few people. The tank actually gets respect and is feared. The fewer AT guys in that class actually have to work their way over to the tank with their squads help and defeat it. Challenging. Good. Fun.

A lone sniper began harassing and killing soldiers. These soldiers respawn in their current class, call out the snipers location hoping their own sniper will do some countersniper duty, they find a way to assault the sniper and work through it. Challenging. Yay!

Troopers want to assault a flag, the SL tells the SAW gunners to lay down bursts of suppresive fire or the SAW gunner takes it upon themself to advance with their team of assault troops to get the flag. Realism. Neat. Fun.

Conclusion:

You see, the argument that a few smacktards are going to take all the good weapons is simply weak. Moreover it is vastly outweighed by the need to address the total lack of realism of 15 AT troops popping up on a tank.

I think the folks who argue against class limits are the same ones, for the most part, who respawn with the AT kit to fight a tank. Which contributes to the whole problem.

One cant say that RO or FH2 cant be compared to PRMM because they are WW2 based. Thats a weak argument. The squad concept and class limitations are a fact of life.

Hey, I got an idea, lets not call them class limiitations. Maybe that term makes people think it will "limit" their fun. Lets call it "Realistic Squad Compositions". Now doesnt that sound better?